PT Lightsaber Duels in the PT

I know the context. This isn't Dragon Ball Z, they don't "need" to build up "energy". If anything, they're wasting energy. Never have we ever seen any such ridiculous moves in the Saga, and we've certainly never seen the need for Jedi or Sith to "build up energy" for an attack before. In the end, the force of their strikes looked the same, as any other. They certainly weren't the hardest strikes somebody's ever done with a lightsaber If they were "building up energy", why didn't Qui-Gon start spinning his lightsaber around to put more effort into slicing into the Trade Federation control room? Why didn't Obi-Wan start flipping his lightsaber around when he was facing Dooku (one of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order has ever seen, I might add). Why didn't Yoda feel the need to start twirling his lightsaber around when facing the Emperor - an, arguably, far more dangerous and unpredictable opponent than Vader? Face it, Lucas wanted some fancy, twirly lightsaber tricks that he had no explanation for, just because he thought they looked cool.

I think it looks genuinely awesome - some "definitely realistic" bits, some "heavy sword" bits, and the flips and theatralic movements, all of them work together to create a tense and "noble feeling" duel.[/quote] Flips? Were we watching the same duel? Obi-Wan kinda awkwardly spins randomly once, but I don't remember Alec Guinness or David Prowse doing any flips. It was definitely theatrical, but it was also very slow. I took up fencing as a hobby for a bit, and Obi-Wan and Vader dueling in ANH reminded me more of that awkward and slow beginners level speed than the quick, sharp, accurate strikes of a master swordsman. They strike each other around a bit, but it's not nearly as intense as either of the Luke/Vader duels.

 

Or isn't it?
This fight is directly inspired by Matrix 3, and that one apparently was inspired by Dragon Ball Z, not that I'm particularly familiar.

Wow, is that acording quantum gravity or relative quarkoids?
Proper fighting -> acceleration, picking up speed, energy gets stored up as the movements are braked -> climactic release of stored up energy; the unhindered movements building up in strength -> built-up strength used up in a particularly strong sword clash; retraction; force push match.

That's what's going on here, not just twirling / showing off. Whether it makes physical / athletic sense, is obviously utterly irrelevant.
Once you get it, you can then criticize it for various reasons, and I can support it for various reasons.

They only look ridiculous when in a perma-gif - however, it's true that while the editing, sound and all the rest help support this effect, there isn't much "acting" involved in that short moment, so in isolation it actually does look like a dance performance.
If it didn't, the gif wouldn't be as exploitable, and it would've come off completely convincing on screen.

Oh, and while I'm not that type who goes "oh lololool but OT lookd shabby and old and also laughable hahahaha", there's a single moment in the VI fight which looks way more ludicrous than this, or, rather, DOES look ludicrous, even in context because it goes on for too long - you know which moment I'm talking of.
However, that's just some unfortunate acting/editing and not some integral part of the structure.

But that's what's happening here...

No, but then again when Agent Smith was pounding into Neo at the very end of that fight, they didn't look like the most powerful face punches either - slight problems in the execution don't really obstruct what's going on.

Plus, "other force pushes" aside, this is a climactic moment in the fight itself, and marks the transition into the next phase - so it works within the context of the fight.
And in the even larger context, it's really just another super speed / Gandalf's anti-Nazgul rays / why didn't Vader force-pull Luke back up, it's part of this genre that sometimes abilities pop up for a scene and then never again, and as long as it's "sold" as believable in the moment it's not much of a problem.
Even a feature, because it gives different moments their unique oomph - sacrificing some logic in the process.


Why did the Jedi use superspeed in the TF ship? Because that was COOL.
Why couldn't Obi-Wan reach Qui-Gon in that duel? Cause that was really dramatic and nightmarish.
Why not be consistent? Well cause then you'd lose both cool moments.

Take that "fancy twirly" and expand it into the whole artistic architecture it's part of, and then... yea. They wanted that kind of thing in there so they did it - just as you're saying

Ah, yea, that was what I meant, I was kinda quoting someone else who said "flips"... my bad.

Don't see what's awkward about it - I saw some of that unedited footage which looked laughable, so whatever awkwardness there might've been has been saved by the editing.

Hmm, well obviously our brains are wired differently, given your background - however, just two things:
1) Fencing, not heavy swords? Those slow movements are supposed to resemble swords.
2) I've seen others with swordfighting background who said Luke/Vader looked less realistic (and laughable, to them), or all the PT fights looked laughable and like dancing but the OT looked great.

Ultimately the only pattern I recognize among those different views, and what I've seen of athletic fencing etc., is that OT resembles reality closer. Btw, all those wide hacking movements Vader does especially during his final charge, don't they like provide openings to stabby stab or something?

 

My take is that OT style was close to medieval swordfighting (as if lightsabers actually weigh a a few kilos). In-universe, we're not dealing with Jedi or Sith at their prime: Vader is crippled by his injuries and suit, Ben is old and Luke is barely trained (he does get better in ROTJ). The Jedi in the prequel era are in their prime (and Maul is an awesome fighter, of course) so they needed something flashier (and honestly, the audiences expected something like that in 1999). I think the AOTC three-way duel is underwhelming and the battle of the heroes is a bit over the top towards the end... but overall my satisfaction with the PT duels is 9/10. I wonder if they're going to go for a mix of PT and OT style in ST.

 

Dragon Ball Z and The Matrix both have a very unique fighting style to them that don't transfer well without looking like either purposeful references or bad knock offs. The latter is what happened with this fight. It looks like a bad knock off of two Gokus going Super Saiyan, and it comes off really out of place in the Star Wars universe. It would be like if, in TFA, there was "beaming" technology from Star Trek. Once again: a unique feature that wouldn't translate well into the Star Wars universe. Which leads into the next point...

Star Wars isn't Star Trek. It's a much more fantasy based universe. There's really few scientific explanations that would satisfactorily explain most elements of Star Wars. The Force, the way starfighters travel through space, the way there's sounds and explosions in space, lightsabers... the list goes on. Star Wars is very much rooted in fantasy, whereas Star Trek is very much rooted in science fiction. There's a lot about it that could not satisfactorily be explained by science. That's part of the reason midi-chlorians were so unwelcomed by fans. They believed that it somewhat removed some of the mysticism that surrounded the Jedi and the Force.

No, it looks ridiculous and out of place in the film, too. All of the sudden, they take a few seconds of the their duel to start swinging their lightsabers around. It looks out of place.

Again, referring back to the first point. Star Wars is its own universe. It doesn't play by the rules of Lord of the Rings or The Matrix. In Star Wars, you have a set of specific Force powers that reoccur throughout the movies. The Jedi got some unique to them, same with the Sith. When they don't reoccur, they come across like some weird, strange McGuffin. It's randomly brought up, then never mentioned again. Ever. The audience it left thinking "Wait, what was that?" Audiences don't like "Wait, what was that?" They like either exposition or consistency. A McGuffin provides neither.

No, because they needed to escape the droidekas quickly.

No, because he got kicked off the catwalk by Maul earlier in the duel, and that made him stuck behind as the duel progressed.

Because Lucas has had a problem with consistency when making the PT.

The point of PT lightsaber duels was to show off the Jedi in their prime, and it really does that very well in many duels: both TPM duels, Dooku VS Skywalker and Kenobi, Skywalker VS Dooku, Grievous VS Kenobi, and Palpatine VS the Jedi. However, the ones that really stick out like a sore thumb are the ones that have the most flash and flair: Obi-Wan VS Vader, Dooku VS Yoda, Yoda VS the Emperor. It comes across more as an acrobatic show at the Olympics than a lightsaber duel you'd expect to see in Star Wars. The good duels in the PT show off what Lucas wanted from them perfectly: fast pace, quick moves, new and interesting styles, some more acrobatics. But the stinkers really stink. They take everything good about the good ones and amplify it until its over saturated and soggy. It gets bogged down with imbalance: too much acrobatics, not enough fighting. It becomes The Matrix instead of being Star Wars.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree. AOTC duel between Anakin, Dooku and Obi wan isn't that great (It wasn't bad, but it's not as good as most other duels).It was short, not edited that well, the style isn't as intense as other duels, Obi wan went out in like a minute, and Anakin was frozen solid for good 3 seconds waiting for Dooku to cut his hand off. Palpatine vs Jedi is worse. The three Jedi just stand there. (Mace Windu duel is better though).

 

I would have preferred the slow moving ones of the CT. Don't get me wrong, the PT duels are beautiful through its aesthetics and choreography. However, I always saw the lightsaber duels to be fencing matches as the primary focus would be the Force rather than these weapons.

My favorite duel would be Anakin vs Obi Wan as it is the most emotional one.

 

They were fantastic. I remember my mind was blown after the first time I saw the movies because of the lightsaber duels. Yoda vs Sidious is my favorite, followed by Mace vs Sidious.

 

Nah - I mean okay, you've watched Gokus so I guess you'd know better, but my point was more like, Matrix based all that flying and explosive clashes from those animes (believe I saw something like that), and THEN Sith took the tone and structure of that fight and made a Star Wars version of it.

Just like Revolutions took the structure from RotK and successfully translated it into its cyberpunk setting (not the SBB but everything prior to that).
Keep in mind that SW has been doing this since day 1 - Western here, WW2 there, "Starsky&Hutch" there, monster horror here.

How is this a lame knock-off, if it's done with conviction and artistry, if the moment fits the sequence and the sequence fits the film? This especially since the film is already full of those "magic beam match-offs" - might've been a foreign element to it until ROTS (or AOTC ending maybe), more like HP territory, but bam - they did it here, and it worked


And btw, one thing that really feels Super Sayian, is the corny dialogue in the first scene this happens, i.e. "unlyimited powah" - a lot of people make fun of it, and I'm not sure if that sort of camp fits in that context - but I can appreciate for what it is, an affectionate and amusing callback to corny over-the-top material like those animes.
The Mustafar bit, however, isn't comical in that sense... or any sense really.

Well, V and VI took Star Wars away from Flash Gordon and closer to Tolkien - worked fine, didn't it.
In IV, the DS wasn't Mordor, just a great superweapon - in VI, it was.

Um, can you detect sarcasm or what? If it's not supposed to have scientific expanations, why did you say "wasting energy" like some boring gym trainer.

What I described there, IS fantasy - in the magical sense, in the escapist sense (hey wouldn't that be cool if it worked like that?) and the artistic sense: fighting being like dancing, chase sequences having a musical rhythm to them, and things along those lines.

Ice skaters typically do that - start rotating, then rotate faster, then even faster, and then "releasing" that build-up into that twirly jump move they always do. The same thing was done in Reloaded's BB, right before the first BT shot. And the same thing can be done in a music piece, as well.

I don't have a problem with that, because PT mythology =/= OT mythology.
The worse bit is that there's nothing in the PT to suggest any midichlorians aside from those scenes where they're mentioned - so more of a structural issue, really.

Star Trek was speculative science fiction, but way on the soft side - a lot of things were done just for allegory, and/or well pretty much fantasy paying lip service to the SF premise - but that's neither here nor there.

All of a sudden? Without the build-up you mean? The build-up that I just described, you mean?
Your opinion is invalid - consider all the factors first.

1) Those were comparisons to other franchises, not instances of taking inluences from them. "Abilities that pop up and disappear" = a thing that happens in these kinda movies, and Star Wars IS that kind fo movie.
2) Star Wars isn't the "universe in a vacuum" universe you're looking for. Neither are those other two (though LOTR probably most, and Matrix least). And both were influenced by Star Wars, and influenced it themselves.
Do I need to remind you of the concept behind the first movie again?

Unless if fits the overarching concept or is sold well - both of which it is, in this instance.

That's the same kinda faulty reasoning as with Chrisitan apologists: why do bad things happen to people? So they can learn from it, and be more prepared for... the bad things that could happen.

You're treating the Droidekas as a given, and the quick escape as "necessary" - whereas neither were a given, nor necessary.
1) They could've forced-pushed them, or come closer and closer until they could cut off the guns through the shields. Deactivated the shields with the Force.
2) What makes you think the superspeed wasn't thought of first, and the Droidekas second?

Their arrival was stylish, the quick scape was stylish, that whole scene has a beginning, middle and ending and comprises a continuous unit. (However, the transition from the blast door frying to the Droidekas was awkward.)

Except he could've run faster (superspeed), and when he started out it looked like he could've reached them in time even with normal speed.

The quesition was why he wasn't using superspeed

Your mistake is assuming every inconsistency is automatically a fault, or something that couldn't have been intended - even after I've made an argument to the contrary.

No, that's some bull**** Lucas made up without thinking about it. In the OT, Vader WAS in his prime - or, even if he's seen better days, he still was way up there.
That trilogy portrayed him as the ultimate badass, not some third tier bastard son of greater sires.

The point of the PT lightsaber work was to re-stylize it into fast-paced "Hong Kong" action, and combine it with all kinds of fancy force tricks.

Not that last one LMAO.

Yea, and he hypnotized all of them into immobility - again, where has that happened before, or ever since? By your logic, it sucks.

The only bit so far that can pass for a "legitimate opinion"... I guess.
Some issues:
1) The Matrix, just like I-III, had many different fight scenes and they ranged all the way from gritty beat-ups to dance-like surrealism.
2) Your premise that Lucas wanted fast pace, but not acrobatic dance show to any degree (even though that kind of thing has a long tradition), seems arbitrary. However, your issues, if refined somewhat, could amount to valid criticism if applies to particular scenes: for example, Mustafar is epic, sweeping and operatic, it starts out more down-to-earth and not particularly flashy, but then takes on epic proportions in the second phase as more force and lava are introduced; that kind of will-wrestling is appropriate starting point for the second phase; however, Ewan vs. Maul is supposed to be merely dry, furious and tense: so the few moments where it does start looking like a dance, while excellently executed, undermine the general tone.

Dooku vs. Yoda was *****, and Yoda vs. Emperor was supposed to be kind or the huge polar opposite of "dry and fast-paced", wouldn't you agree?

I know Ewan trashed it, and it's he only one in the trilogy that somewhat felt like "the obligatory ending duel", but I don't see why - the moves are elegant, the "twin lightsaber attack mode" cool as **** and unique to the series, some moody camera movements, a weird alienating atmosphere, a sarcastic condescending villain (who doesn't get put in his place at the end), and the way he ends the first round more than makes up for those "3 seconds".
The only one that's lame is the threeway rematch from III, though it kinda feels like a warm-up, and gets intense when it needs to.

When Palpatine takes out the Jedi, the shots / edits probably could've been done better to convey it, but I think it's obvious what happens there: he hypnotizes/immobilize them (like Emperor Ming) and stabs them while they're still staring in a different direction.
The droning score, that unearthly scream, and his acting, seriously leave little doubt about that imo.

If it was just a lame, lazy cop-out, why go out of their way to have the redshirts stare like 40° in the wrong direction, frozen and in such a CREEPY way, why does he take his sweet time (within reason) to stab them one by one? If done better, it wouldn't leave any doubts about that at all, but I think the point definitely comes across.

 

Because Star Wars is. Not. An. Anime. It's more grounded than anime, because traditionally anime is purposefully over the top and flashy. Star Wars was never that. It may not have been as subtle as, say, a movie like Fury, with it's war time humanities symbolism, but it's more subtle than most traditional anime, which is about as subtle as Godzilla's nuclear symbolism as Big G walks down the street blasting cars with his atomic breath. Star Wars is closer to the real world symbolism in The Legend of Korra, than it is to the more fantastical, far fetched ideas of The Last Airbender. It makes distinct political messages that translate into the real world. OT was post-Vietnam era, while PT was Bush Administration era. There's no monsters, there's a decent amount of "Starsky & Hutch go Wild Wild West" going in between Han and Chewie, and the WWII symbolism is definitely there, but it's heavily mixed with the post-Vietnam politics and Lukes coming of age character arc.

Even if something is done with artistic intent, it may not come out that way. As I said, movie fights like those in The Matrix are difficult to repeat without it looking like either a direct reference (such as is often the case) or looking like a cheap knock off. Lucas certainly didn't want the fight to look like a reference, and thus it comes across as a bad knock off.

Oh, no doubt those lines are cheesy as Hell! But then, the dialogue was never exactly award winning in Star Wars.

I don't mean to say it's comical, but it's definitely over the top.

To be fair, I purposely put the word "energy" in there because I really wasn't sure what else to refer to it as. I didn't particularly mean "energy" in the literal sense, more in the sense of the phrase "Don't waste your energy".

"This is not "Star Wars on Ice". It's "Star Wars: The Motion Picture". The origin of ice skaters using such exaggerated motions is for the same reason theater actors made such wide motions, or why Japanese Kabuki actors wore such colorful and exotic face paint. Movie actors don't need such exaggeration. They're being filmed right there. and then blown up on a 20ft tall screen. Everybody in the audience can see what the actor is doing, there's no need to be exaggerated like that.

It's not an opinion, it's true. They literally start swinging their lightsabers around out of nowhere. One second they're making perfectly normal parries and attack, and the next they're swinging their lightsabers around at random!

(3min in)

No, we've discussed the concepts perfectly well above. And there's plenty of abilities that show up numerous times. The ones that don't I can count off on one hand, and often leave the audience confused.

Neither are sold well. Most audience members don't understand what exact happened during the Force Speed scene or when Obi-Wan knocks out Jar-Jar using the Force. It's clumsily handled, left unexplained, and never brought up again. It would be like handing an indigenous man from Brazil a clock, and then expecting him to be impressed by it. We, the audience, do not know as much about the Force as the characters. We cannot be left with the assumption that we're going to get every little detail within the first few viewings. Most people, when they enter a theater, know only as much as the TV spots tell them. They haven't researched the movie. The Force, as far as the average theater goer knew in 1999, was "an energy field thatsurrounds, penetrates, and binds the galaxy together". We don't know what the Jedi powers were like back when the Jedi were in their prime. Prior to 1999, the last time we saw the Jedi, there was one of them. We can't be expected to see two characters vanish off the screen in a blur, and automatically understand "Oh wow! That's a new Force power!"

Yet Lucas uses A LOT of that logic in Star Wars. "Luke needed to experience the Cave, to understand how his fear and anger could be bad." "Anakin needed to rush head first into that duel with Dooku, and get his arm chopped off, to learn a lesson in patience."

The scene is written in a way that, because we the audience have never seen the droidekas before, we are to assume that they are a very powerful threat and that conventional means of fighting them are useless. The Droidekas are seen the same way in Ep. III. When they appear, Anakin and Obi-Wan immediately surrender.

Because, as I explained, it's a McGuffin styled force power.

V
V
V

No doubt, but that's now what I was saying. Lucas wasn't referring to just Vader, he was referring to Jedi as a whole. We were meant to see a whole manner of fast paced lightsaber and Force badassery in the PT, from both the Jedi and the Sith.

I don't remember that part when Lucas explained lightsaber moves in the PT.

He hypnotized them? That's not how I remember it being explained. I remember it being explained that Palpatine simply had such a mastery of the Force, that he could best 3 Jedi masters without even exiting out of the first lightsaber form.

I would. I was actually hesitant to even include the Yoda/Emperor duel among them, because truthfully, Yoda's quite a bit more dialed back in this duel than he was against Dooku. He's doing flips and stuff, but he's not bouncing around the Senate like a pinball as he was facing Dooku.

 

I guess I don't really dislike the PT fights beccause I like fast paced sword fights and all that, don't get me wrong, I love the OT lightsaber fights, but the people who over analyze the PT fights would have a cow if Star Wars pulled off something as over the top as this:

 

I love the PT lightsaber duels. There is not one I don't like

I say this as a swords and sword-fighting connoisseur

 

1) Star Wars isn't gloomy and spiritual about succumbing to evil -> Empire. Star Wars isn't naughty and sexual -> Jedi.
Everytime a new movie was made, something entirely new was added to the mix, and if now it's OTT anime, the fact that "it's never been that" is not an argument in itself.
2) The prequels follow a different aesthetic than the OT, and, in fact, take place in a different continuity as well (not a stated intention, just how it is). They're less grounded, and more lush, over the top and fantastical - the characters themselves may seem "subdued", but the way they act is also less grounded and more fantastical, even if not in the "flashy" sense. So this kind of stuff is definitely much less out of place here, than it would've been in the classics.
3) What part of "but my point was more like, Matrix based all that flying and explosive clashes from those animes (believe I saw something like that), and THEN Sith took the tone and structure of that fight and made a Star Wars version of it" is that hard to understand? The anime influences stay with the Matrix; Sith took the structure and tone, but not the flying around the sky and giant fire bubbles.
So the bit where they twirl and then force-push each other and then start moving towards the giant lava eruptions, mirrors that bit where they "symmetrically" hit each other in the face and are shoved apart, and then take off into the rainy sky. The grandeur and general feel is retained and made its own, but the "anime" element is left behind.
4) The Matrix hasn't been an anime until that scene, either - in fact, it's a bigger departure from M1 or even anything in 2+3, than this is from ANH.

Okay... guess I'm stupid and this is off-topic anyway, but how was the OT anything about Vietnam other than trying to breathe some fresh, idealistic air into that cynical time, make war glorious/fun again? And yea, Guerilla Bears - let's forget about those for now.

I said "with artistry"

It wasn't a repitition, or imitation - everything distinctly "Matrix" was left behind, only the general tone and the structure were adopted. It's only a bad knockoff in the way the robots in SW were a knockoff of those Kurosawa peasants, or Obi-Wan's death was a knock-off of Gandalf's, or PotC ripped off Star Wars.
If it's a knock-off, then it's the good kind - because that's what people want to see: something that's "like that", but with is own individual character and, say, redressed in a different genre.

Not sure if you mean the whole series or only the prequels, so this:
1) While ROTJ dropped the ball occasionally, the dialogue in Wars and Empire was crisp and excellent, and might as well have won an "award".
2) There's several classic/iconic lines from the prequels, dramatic as well as comedic.
3) Those that aren't usually fall into the "direct and to the point" category - it's just there, with its flair, but is neither particularly memorable nor in any way "cheesy". Just performing a function.
4) So you agree that that's the ironic anime bit?

I'd say it's epic and operatic - but as I said, as long as one acknowledges all those connections and doesn't make the silly assertion that it's just "showing off", such opinions might be valid, despite not being mine

Lmao I'm not even responding to this ideological hogwash - I bet you're also one of those guys that say "movies shouldn't be like rides cause there's already disney rides".
But, for one, none of the stuff in those movies would've been possible in theeatah.

Wrong - it keeps intensifying and accelerating.

4u

That's some really weird logic you've got there.... what does any of that have to do with knowing details??
The only thing the Jedi got, is the Force - we left with the concept that it can give you psychokinesis (manipulation of envionrment), hypnosis (of minds), physical (pre-cog) "reflexes", and the ability to perform physical, superhuman feats.

No one with half a brain in tact, having seen Luke jump up from the pit like an arrow and attributed it to his Force powers, is gonna look at the Jedi disappearing in super speed and not think "ah, well that's the Force then too".

Sold well = executed well.
It does flow from the overarching concept - the general idea that they let the Force guide their movements (rarely conveyed in the choreography, but established directly and indirectly), or that their spiritual strength is what gives them prowess and their enemies step back. => Lightsaber "energy" culminating in force push.

1) This is only a fallacy when applied to someone omnipotent - like God, or the author. A spiritual entity that can only influence the world in a limited fashion, and is even pitted against equallly matched, opposing entities, can prepare someone for a trial that they themselves haven't imposed, or can't take away.
1a) Omnipotent and totalitarian is also an exception - if a God simply WANTS it this way, for whatever "ideological" reason, he can do that; it's only if you ascribe certain universal goals to him, like "wanting everyone to be well-off", that first counteracting those goals and then reasserting them starts looking like nonsense.
The Gods sent Odysseus on his... Odyssey, to teach him a lesson in humility, and help him once he does so; he "needed" to learn it, because that's how THEY deem it necessary.
2) The Cave wasn't something bad that happened to him, it was just preparation and training, in essence. And it wasn't about "experiencing fear"
And the AOTC one, you've just read that into it. He doesn't learn a lesson in patience, not any relevant one.

YOU, however, have committed this fallacy - nice dodge, nice try!

Lol all of that is obvious and you're not responding to my quote in any shape or form.
Yea, that was the concept: Jedi can't defeat them, can only stand there in a stand-off, or escape. It's a "cool concept", despite logical problems, and relies on making the "escape" cool.
It's NOT how you said it, that he "doesn't know how to get them out" - if he wanted, he could've added more options other than fleeing. But the point was to make escape the only option, so those escapes had to be cool.

Do you even know what a McGuffin is. Aren't you rather talking about Applied Phlebotinum or something?
Anakin is the only McGuffin in these movies, if there's any - the prophecy never explained, but made a giant fuss about. An unintentoinal McGuffin, probably.

But Vader was already ONE of those.
The whole rationale with "in their prime" relies on Vader's slow style to be indicative of his inferiority - otherwise, they're just using a different style, not a "superior" one because they're in "their prime". Except it IS just a different style.

No, he explained it with the "prime" argument which is nonsense.

First lightsaber form? Wat?
Maybe the EU explained it differently, but in the movie there's this venomous drone music hanging in he air and those animal Jedi look weirdly in another direction while he's taking his time to stab them.

If this was an intentional Flash Gordon reerence, that would be just fackin awesome...

Now THAT was comical.

 

If you watch the clone wars animated series, we have Mace Windu jumping across entire peninsulas and running at super speeds while cutting through mountains of droids.

I kind of feel like this is how GL wants Jedis to be portrayed, super human like. The PT captures this much better than the OT does, and the duels play a huge part in this.

 

On the topic of the TPM lightsaber duel...okay, wait I have a question. If the Sith have been extinct for a millennium, then why are the Jedi so darn experienced at sword fighting? Also, when they go into that energy room, what does it power, the universe? Are you telling me that the people that built this technological wonder couldn't survive without space trade for two days? Also, the one in ROTS is like 45 minutes long! It could've been 3 minutes on a small rock and it would've had the same effect.

Their flawless choreography lacks all humanity and emotion. But then something happens. Qui-Gon dies. Hey, maybe this'll finally get good. Maybe I'll get emotionally involved. You see, Obi-Wan is pumped. And them, BAM! Oh. It's right back to highly choreographed fighting.

Nah, just kidding! I love the PT lightsaber fights! Every single one! You can't tell me Anakin vs. Obi-Wan doesn't have any humanity and emotion.

 

The OT was "noble knights with heavy swords".

BUT ITS THE ONLY ONE WITH EMOTION AND IT DIDNT HAVE TO GO ON FOR 65 MINUTES

 

Since when is gloom and spirituality a prerequisite to anime? There's a ton of anime out there that doesn't involve either gloom or spirituality.

And those moments in Jedi were direct reference to "gangsters". Jabba the Hutt is a crime lord, and if you look at Hutt culture throughout canon, it very explicitly references old Sicilian crime families.

Adds something new, yes, but what I'm saying is that sometimes it went too far.

Yes, I believe this is the point we're disagreeing upon.

It's not that I don't understand, I just don't agree with it. I understand what it was trying to do, I just think it was done in poor taste.

Matrix Revolutions is also the worst Matrix movie, and would be a very very poor choice to take inspiration from.

Not the war, but the politics of the time. Rebellion raging against the machine, teenage angst, fight the power. All of these were ideas that defined what it meant to be a teenager in the 70s.

That's what's all wrong about it. There shouldn't be anything that hints at the smell of an avante garde techno thriller like The Matrix in these movies. That's not what these movies are about. The 3PO/R2 duo took from old comedy duos like Abbott and Costello (one shot and squat, one tall and thin), and indeed 3PO and R2 provided much of the comedic relief in the OT. Obi-Wan's death isn't a knock off of Gandalf's sacrifice as Gandalf's sacrifice is a knock off of the old Arthurian Legends. In the story of Star Wars, Obi-Wan is Merlin giving/directing to (depending on the story) Arthur (Luke) the legendary Sword in the Stone (Anakin's lightsaber). This sword is eventually lost in a fight with a Black Knight (Vader), only for the Hero to receive a new sword (Luke's second lightsaber).

Crisp is not precisely the phrase I would use to describe dialogue in Star Wars. Maybe cumbersome, definitely conspicuous. There's a lot of classic lines in these movies, but that doesn't stop a lot of the lines from being really cheesy, either.

No, I'm one of those guys that doesn't think movies should be like rides because it's not conducive to a proper story. If your story has too many climaxes, it's bad for the pacing and flow. Take the movie The Lost World: Jurassic Park for instance. As much as I love the movie, it suffers from too much climax. There's the thrilling final chase involving the Velociraptors, that has one of the most iconic scenes in the franchise building up to it, but then the buck doesn't stop there! Spielberg, against the advice of Kathleen Kennedy, decides to tack on an extra 15 minutes with another climax involving a T. rex stomping through San Diego. You already gave the audience a thrilling and fast paced action sequence involving the Velociraptors that whines down. It becomes cumbersome for you to add another high stakes action sequence. It's fine in avante garde films, when you're wording more about the art than the story, but Star Wars has always been a story driven franchise. It's the stories, and the characters that we fall in love with. The great effects are just icing in the cake (and really, who doesn't love the icing!).

In the fight over all, but the pacing kinda spikes at that moment. You have, as you call it, an intensifying and accelerating build up going on, then it spikes as weird moments, and whines back down into the build up. It's strange, pacing wise. It doesn't really make sense. These kinds of moves would have been better left for when Anakin and Obi-Wan are facing off in the river of lava. It would have actually worked fairly well there. But these odd, spiking moments of fancy twirling and Force attacks that go nowhere in the control room kinda mess up the pacing of the duel.

But it's not well executed, as I've already explained. It's random, chaotic, and ill paced. They feel out of place in the moment.

Who says that the idea of learning a lesson from "bad things happening" must be applied in a God to human fashion? Regardless, in this instance,the Jedi Order is the "God" here. The rules of the Order is what decides what makes a Jedi. It's the Order that decides when a Jedi is ready. Luke needed the Cave to tach him a lesson in controlling his anger. All of the lessons we see the characters learn in Star Wars is are lessons needed to learn, for characters to grow, they must learn from their mistakes, and from their experiences. The OT characters experience a coming of age story. They each grow, and mature. They do so by learning from their mistakes.

They don't HAVE to be cool, Lucas only wanted them to be cool. It's not a necessity.

I suppose so. I guess I was referring to something "McGuffin-like", byt Applied Phlebotinum is more apt here.

There's over 10,000 Jedi spread across the Galaxy by the time of Order 66, I don't think Vader represented all of them, or all of their fighting styles, cultures, ideals, etc. The idea of showing the Jedi in their prime is showing all of them in their prime, not just a singular Jedi. All Jedi. Remember, in the PT, there's a much much much much more variety of Jedi to see. Luke was not even the tip to that iceberg.

Unfortunately, it's not a Flash Gordon ref. I'm talking about this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_1
I remember reading in one of the companion books that Sidious was using the most basic lightsaber form against the three Masters before ramping up the fight with Mace Windu. It was meant to show Palpatine's prowess with a lightsaber. Regardless, there's nothing in that scene to indicate that Palpatine used any form of hypnosis in the duel. Even if he tried, Jedi are naturally immune to such mind tricks. They can't be hypnotized.

 

I agree completely. It was a fight between two guys who were like brothers, of course it had emotion and humanity. It is my favorite battle.

 

Um... can we please stop with these simple misunderstandings, or what?
Empire introduced gloom and spirituality to Star Wars => It did something Star Wars "was never about", yet worked. Nothing to do with Anime.

Cantina was already gangsters - Jabba is this plus Caligula, PLUS naughty tentacles horror.

That's a more legitimate point, but you said that it was "never about this", i.e. did something new that hadn't been part of the style priorly.

Except...
1) But you're being obtuse now - I clearly said, anything having to do with specifically "Matrix material", was left behind.
2) The Matrix isn't a "techno thriller", it's cyber fantasy... opera. Boy that came out wrong... basically it's to cyberpunk what Star Wars was for space Sci-Fi.
The first 40 minutes of M1 may have been a techno thriiller, but the ending of Revolutions? Epic fantasy in a cyberpunk setting, pretty much.

I'm aware that it was inspired by more sources than just LOTR, but hadn't thought about the Arthurian Legend this way I admit I'm a bit rusty on that... the Sword in the Lake is the new one, not the one in the Stone right?
Anyway, as far as I'm aware, Merlin isn't killed but ends up frozen in the sexy thigh clutches of some lusty wench, or some kind of stone (in fact, Obi-Wan's original look resembled Merlin from that movie a lot)?

Anyway, the Gandalf reference was specifically in terms of him saying "run" and then returning in a new spiritual form. And even if some other myth was the common inspiration for that, it still mixes that stuff with Parsecs and Westerns, so the same argument, "this doesn't go together" could've been applied there.

... you know what, you should watch IV and V again.
I think you're mixing them up with some of the audition tapes (with "cumbersome" dialogue in the sense of convoluted and cluster****ey), and forget that '77 wasn't the prequels, neither was it '83 in terms of stoic, "cumbersome" (the other meaning of the word) dialogue.
Vader and Tarkin talked in a more formal way, as did Ben - especially when they were talking to each other. The rest, however, is an entirely different story...

Cheesy bits were:
4) Some of the more wide-eyed bits in the final act, like not being about money etc.
5) The "laserbrain" scene,
6) Lots of Han/Leia stuff, but especially that smirking and winking around with Lando.

That's it, pretty much. And it's all feature

So... what I said, right?
Any notion that two hours of screentime should be filled with this kind of entertainment rather than that kind of entertainment, is just vapid OCD ideology and requires no further attention.

All those wushu acrobatics, all the countless ham & cheese that people love, gone because "theater needed those OTT elements, but cinema is right in front so it doesn't need it, it should be done when needed, but when it's not needed it shouldn't be done because it's not needed". °_°

I'll watch it some time soon haha, isn't it that movie where some 6 year old girl kicks a dinosaur in the face?

So I don't know about that - but "many climaxes" can actually work, if those climaxes are arranged in some kind of structure.

Okay, so which SW has too many climaxes now? Oh wait, vvvvvv

I was talking about theatrics btw, not climaxes.

There are 3 phases: the furious, fast-paced and grounded phase in a "normal" environment; the otherwordly, epic phase in midst of the lava, which slows down the fighting but intensifies the "apocalyptic" emotion; and the final confrontation on the barges, surrounded by fire and death, that has a grim finality to it and leaves some room for concluding dialogue.


That moment in question marks the climax of the first phase, and the beginning of the next one - the shields are deactivated, and they start "moving out there", now with Duel of the Fatse playing and the other duel also having reached "cosmic" proportions. So this whole built-up force match is obviously more "epic and magical", and hence a great way of linking the two phases.

Revolutions does it, if not better, than more obvious - right after that happens, they immediately take off into the sky (however, there's a "break" inbetween that inside the old house (a potential chink in the structural armor).
That's why I brought it up as a comparison - it does some of those things more obviously, so you can look back at Sith and go "ah... guess I see what they were going for now".

Well, as I just explained - it has its place in the overarching structure, and is itself well executed on a micro level (i.e. the way the shots and movements succeed each other, along with the music).

That's what I mean by "sold" - EVEN if you go well, this doesn't make any sense at all, it's never worked this way before, he execution is so primal that you go ah - I get what's going on here.

You're losing topic threads real fast!
I brought up theodicy as a comparison to your "get characters out of sticky situation" argument, i.e. where THE AUTHOR IS THE GOD.
Why you talking about characters now, I don't really get...

No, you said getting them out somehow was a necessity - I just used a phrase. "Had to be cool", you know?




Yes, it's all wanted. Wanted it to be cool. Wanted cool robot arrival and cool escape. The whole tone of that sequence can probably described as "pokerfaced and laconic and.. cool". Which is cool.

So, what's the problem with it being cool again? Or swift?
They come up with a really exciting sequence, part of which is a force power that isn't really used anywhere else - whether that takes you out or not is a different question, but that's what was being done here: doing a particular cool thing on the micro level that, again, fits the overall pacing and tonal structure.

None of those are God, because they're not responsible for the situations they're preparing the heroes for.

"The whole rationale with "in their prime" relies on Vader's slow style to be indicative of his inferiority - otherwise, they're just using a different style, not a "superior" one because they're in "their prime". Except it IS just a different style."

Diversity and variety isn't what Lucas meant by "in their prime", he meant better than those old rusty ones in the Os - however, your take on it would make sense if they weren't ALL fighting in this style. Some individual moves, but it's all saber kung fu essentially.
It doesn't really match up well with the classics, it's a different take on the whole thing.

"he hypnotizes/immobilize them (like Emperor Ming) and stabs them while they're still staring in a different direction.
The droning score, that unearthly scream, and his acting, seriously leave little doubt about that imo.

If it was just a lame, lazy cop-out, why go out of their way to have the redshirts stare like 40° in the wrong direction, frozen and in such a CREEPY way, why does he take his sweet time (within reason) to stab them one by one? If done better, it wouldn't leave any doubts about that at all, but I think the point definitely comes across."

He's much more powerful than them, that's why it works (and not on Mace).

EU can do its own thing, but all this "style" shyte has never been part of any movies. Just because they interpret the films in a particular fashion, and decide to have lots of other characters fight like Darth Maul, or like Dooku, resulting in "styles", doesn't mean it has any bearing on the source material.

 

Ani vs Obi from ROTS is my favorite duel. I disagree with the pretense of the question in the OP that slower = more emotional. I think when you compare the duels of all 6 SW movies, the level of effort involved in making them matches up with the results seen on the screen.

I also like how Ray Park brought in Kung Fu / Wushu elements into it (known as Teras Kasi in the EU, I believe... or "flippy stuff" to the unaware, lol). The movies with the more complex fight scenes are much more re-watchable to me, because there's so much happening that you can't catch on just 1 viewing.

 

Why do so many people hate the ROTS Duels?

I find them to be the best in the Saga along with the ROTJ throne room sequence.

ESB duel has good tension, lighting, and a couple jump-scares but the duel itself is rather lackluster.

 

It is amazing really, I pulled out TPM out the other night - because well - Star Wars is in the air again - and STILL got something from that Maul fight.

As far as I am concerned all parties involved put a huge amount of work into all this. Just the physical dedication to get in shape and learn, and turn up to the training, and practicing and enthusiasm - you know I couldn't do it. No way. So I'm not going to be that guy that just sits behind a computer laughing at some gif from all that work.

The idea is to thrill - literally - make the audience feel excited - exhilarated. All movies hope to do this, but it's quite rare to get that feeling of goosebumps from anything, music , films whatever - so if it happens , if they have created something that is exciting and makes you look foreward to a scene - JOB DONE.

 

1. Anakin vs Obi-Wan - Extraordinary choreography and brilliant symbolic visuals, topped by a heartbreaking conclusion
2. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon vs Maul - Multifaceted and high energy set the standard for the prequels and the saga as a whole
3. Sidious vs Yoda - Showdown between unstoppable force and immovable object too good to resist, and resonant thematic setting
4. Yoda vs Dooku - Big time reveal of Yoda in action practically steals the entire film
5. Obi-Wan vs Grievous - Cartoonish yes, but also an enjoyable battle of charismas
6. Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Dooku (ROTS) - Rematch is much improved, especially with the haunting climax
7. Mace vs Sidious - The other Jedi are taken out too easily and the choreography feels labored, but the lightsaber vs lightning is full of drama
8. Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Dooku (AOTC) - The most underwhelming of all the actual showdowns, save for Anakin's brief double saber action
9. Qui-Gon vs Maul - Startling and fun, but all too brief

 

I love the prequels but the fights where one of the aspects I dislike the most of this trilogy. There's too many useless spins ( especially in ROTS ). You'd totally lose a fight if you did those.

AoTC had the most legit fight.

 

I was under the impression we were discussion anime influence in Star Wars?

It's strongly alluded to many many times in both the OT and the PT that the Hutts are meant to be organized crime style gangsters. Heck, in TPM, Panaka comes right out and says it "The Hutts are gangsters!" In TCW, the Hutts are shown to be ruled by heads of a number of different "families", precisely like the Sicilian mobsters of old. In TCW, a number of the Hutt family heads are animated to actually LOOK like gnasters, including one chomping a cigar like thing, and another one that looks like Marlon Brando from The Godfather.

I believe that Excalibur IS the Sword in the Lake, so yes, it is the second one.

Gandalf is a victim of the "mentor must leave" archetype in the "Hero's Journey". The hero, often an orphan, is guided by a wizened old mentor, one who usually supplies a weapon of importance. The mentor almost always ceased to be of help to the hero in some way at some point in the story. The mentor may return at some point later in the story to advise the hero, but not directly teach them.

-Obi-Wan (the mentor) supplied Luke (the hero) with Anakin's lightsaber (the weapon). Obi-Wan sacrifices himself (the death) to allow Luke to escape. Obi-Wan returns as a Force Ghost (the return) to advise Luke on how seek a new mentor.

-Dumbledore (the mentor) supplied Harry Potter (the hero) with magic and knowledge (the weapon) on how to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore is killed by Snape (the death), but returns to Harry when he "dies" in the 7th book to advise Harry (the return) on some facts of life.

-Gandalf (the mentor) supplied Frodo (the hero) with knowledge of the One Ring (the weapon) and how to destroy it. Gandalf sacrifices himself (the death) to allow the Fellowship to escape. Gandalf is reborn (the return) as "Gandalf the White" to aid the Fellowship in defeating the forces of Mordor.

-Brom (the mentor) supplied Eragon (the hero) with Zar'roc (the weapon). Brom sacrifices himself (the death) to allow Eragon to escape from the evil shade Durza. Brom returns through his own diary, and others tales, (the return) which advises Eragon on some of his own familial history, and how best to defeat Galbatorix.

It's very formulaic.

There's WAY more cheesy lines than that. I'd be here all night listing them all.

Yes, that's the one. It's not the best in terms of logic, but it's got some decent characters (if you into the kind of "bad good guy", and "good bad guy" sort of thing), and is personally my favorite Jurassic Park movie in terms of cinematography.

Ah, my mistake then.

Well, I must admit, as it's among the most mocked parts of the duel, I don't think it was sold all that well.

I see no reason why the only one that can demand that characters are taught a lesson is the author.

There's no problem with being cool, in fact I must admit I like most of characters in Star Wars because they're cool, but I also don't think coolness should be sacrificed in place of practicality. That's what directors like Michael Bay and Roland Emmerich do, and their movies suffer for it.

I agree, but I don't. I agree, it was Lucas's intent for the Jedi to not be shown as old and rusty, but I disagree that should be shown through kung fu acrobatics. It creates a tone in the PT that feels too separated from the OT. It's bad for interconnection.

 

I love the PT lightsaber duels.

TPM

Maul vs Qui Gon on Tatooine. A lot Of people seem to forget this duel but i like it.

Maul vs Obi Wan and Qui Gon. I love this duel. Its exciting and has amazing choreography.

Maul vs Obi Wan. I find this one pretty emotional. I always feel for Obi Wan. I think its weird Maul just stands there at the end and lets Obi Wan slice him in half, but i doesn't bother me that much.

AotC

Obi Wan and Anakin vs Count Dooku. Its good but have some awkward moments and is probably my second least favorite. Love how Dooku talks too Anakin and Obi wan.

Yoda vs Dooku. The CGI hasn't aged that well but i still like this duel, mostly for how they use the force before the battle starts.

RotS

Anakin vs count Dooku. Im not a fan of Dookus force jump in the beginning (i would have liked a slow walk down the stairs) but otherwise its fantastic.

Obi Wan vs General Grievous. I love it. I know a lot of people knew that grievous had four arms before they watched the movie, but i didn't. I didn't know anything about Grievous
before i watched RotS but i ended up loving him. The reveal of his four arms is still one of my favorite moments in the saga. The duel is sadly short but if i could count the utapau chase and the fight on the platform its probably in my personal top 5.

Palpatine vs Mace Windu. It has great moments like when Palpatine destroy the window and some of the close ups, but this is my least favorite duel.

Palpatine vs Yoda.I love it. Its great, but can it be counted as a lightsaber duel? The lightsaber part isn't bad but i like the force duel more.

Anakin vs obi wan. It gets a bit ridiculous when they climb the tower, but other than that i think this duel is great. Really emotional.

My favorite duel of the entire saga is Luke vs Vader in the throne room.