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PT Lightsaber Duels in the PT

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by KBGreedo, Oct 30, 2015.

  1. Delta-7

    Delta-7 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2002

    Revenge of the Sith had some of the best duels of the Saga. The only ones that hold a candle to them are Maul's Duel and Luke v Vader at Bespin.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin and Obi-wan twirling their sabers is no more ridiculous than this was.

    [​IMG]

    The reason the two of them do it isn't about building up power, but about setting up for the Force shove, but they both know the other is going to do and so they block it, causing a backlash.
     
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  3. lGrandeAnhoop

    lGrandeAnhoop Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2015
    Nah, it was a comparison.
    Star Wars wasn't about gloomy spirituality - until Empire.
    Star Wars had no anime influences - until Sith.




    I haven't denied any of that, I did say "plus".
    But are you gonna deny that Jabba's palace in VI is also a lot like Caligula's palace? Or Dothraki? A decadent court with lots of entertainment and sadism.
    So that was a new thing Jedi did - "epic" fantasy, i.e. the duel ending, was also a new stylistic feature, inspiring DotF and all that choir stuff.




    Was that really the case? I think he did that to have Luke witness the death and grow himself that way, though it's always been a bit murky.

    Anyway yea, "death of the mentor" is an archetype, though I think last time I checked I hadn't registered the "guide from beyond the grave" pattern.

    However, just to have it said: Eragon was directly inspired by LOTR and was mildly criticized for feeling like a knock-off, HP was also inspired by it - and I guess SW isn't that similar, since Gandalf returns in full physical might and isn't guiding Frodo, either.
    Hm, didn't think that through I guess.








    ...but the dogfights were copied from WW2 movies. Lol.





    "'d" ;)





    Ah, interesting - it kinda gets a bad rap as being "lame", but sounds not bad.






    Well, I could say YMMV, but so far you've mocked it and didn't catch what was being done there, didn't you? ;)
    People who get it and still mock, are fine - and I'm not saying it couldn't have done or sold better, as I've already said.





    I GIVE UP




    ...


    Okay, seriously what?
    You're mixing stuff up. The "author" gets characters into a stand-off with robots - the God teaches humans lessons.

    Man, you so mixed this stuff up :D




    I think you meant the opposite of what you said there... and yea, I agree, if something is cool it shouldn't be sacrificed just cause it's impractical :p

    Michael Bay and Emmerich do a lot of cliches and kitsch, I don't see how their movies suffer for any other reasons.




    I agree, but I don't. I agree, it was Lucas's intent for the Jedi to not be shown as old and rusty, but I disagree that should be shown through kung fu acrobatics. It creates a tone in the PT that feels too separated from the OT. It's bad for interconnection.[/quote]

    You're confusing stuff again - I said it was his CLAIMED intent, but it was based on a misguided premise (namely that the Jedi in OT were old and rusty), and what he ended up doing effectively was redesign the styles.
    And yes, even if I accepted that premise, obviously doing it through acrobatics is still doing a redesign not based in that premise.

    You seemed to be supporting his intent, but then you changed it from "prime" to "variety"?

    Anyway, yea, it's bad for interconnection - I consider the PT to be doing their own thing and not necessarily even aim at consistency with the OT (despite what the creators said).



    I dun understand...

    Isn't setting up for the Force shove = building up power? They first do a sword clash, then force shove.

    What backlash, you mean when they've started doing the force push and "armwrestle" for a few seconds? Or before that, during the twirling? I don't get it...
     
  4. HylianBowcaster

    HylianBowcaster Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2011
    I always thought of that scene where Anakin and Obi-Wan are not hitting each others light sabers as a demonstration of their ability to predict one another. It's like a boxer faking out his opponent with one hand and striking with the next, except this time the opponent has just as quick reflexes as the attacker and can parry just as quick. That part of the fight shows that it's a mind game between the two of them.
     
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  5. lGrandeAnhoop

    lGrandeAnhoop Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2015
    Er, maybe, maybe they're also "come at me brah", don't think either reading really works.
     
  6. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Well, actually, it's more the other way around. Dothraki and Caligula's Palace look like Jabba's Palace. Jabba's Palace came before both of them. ;)

    Indeed, but not from WWII movies, but actual film of real dog fights that occurred during WWII.

    Well, they suffer because they are cliche. Look, I'm going come right out and say it, I really enjoy Roland Emmerich's movies from a guilty pleasure stance. I find them enjoyable, particularly Godzilla 98 and Independence Day. I also think some Bay's movies, like Armageddon and the first Transformers movie, are fun. However, there's not denying that these movies also dwell in the cliches of their genres, particularly Michael Bay's movies. Have you ever seen the Robot Chicken ski "Michael Bay presents "Explosions!"? That's literally what a lot of his movies comprise of. In fact, I think in Age of Extinction, that's ALL the movie was comprised of. 2 and a half hours of nothing but stuff blowing up. Even I got bored with watching that after a while. IDK how Michael Bay did it, but he found a way to make explosions boring.

    That's funny as Hell! [face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh]
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Obi-wan and Anakin twirl the sabers as part of a distraction, something that they had probably done countless times against other opponents. It would distract the opponent and then lead right into the Force shove. It's like, "Concentrate on the blade and then wham, hit them with a strong push.". When they both went for the move, they couldn't over come the other and so they caused a build up and then it "exploded" on them.

    The escape from the Death Star and parts of the final battle, but a good portion also came from a WWII film called, "The Dam Busters".

     
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  8. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Ah, I always thought the Dam Busters was a war time compilation film.
     
  9. Darth Philosophical

    Darth Philosophical Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2015
    I disliked the PT duels because, even for a fantasy series like SW, I felt they were too over the top, yes, even for a fantasy series like SW. I enjoyed Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs Maul, and (after the nonsense above) the Mace vs Palpatine one-on-one, but that's about it. I found the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight massively disappointing because there was no variety in the fight. They kept doing the same moves over and over in different areas and then the fight kept getting more ridiculous in locales.

    I got tired of all the unnecessary flipping too. It was one thing when Yoda did it, but when Palpatine and Anakin did it...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I thought it was just stupid.
     
  10. Chancellor Yoda

    Chancellor Yoda Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 25, 2014
    I have to confess, I do have more of a prefence to the OT duels then the PT. I just like how the OT is less flashy and more of good old fashioned sword play. The lightsaber duels in the OT always felt like medieval duels, which is a plus for me. With that said, I still find the PT duels entertaining and I thought the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel was one the best parts in ROTS.
     
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  11. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015
    I prefer the PT duels, because they remind me of the martial arts duels found in many wuxia movies. The flipping doesn't bother me. It didn't bother me in the PT movies. And it didn't bother me when Mark Hamill did his share of flipping, especially in "Return of the Jedi".

    Errol Flynn was notorious for swirling his sword around during a duel.
     
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  12. CIS Droid

    CIS Droid AOTC 20th Anniversary Banner Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Oct 21, 2015
    Flipping may be unnecessary, but i don't dislike it.
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    When exactly was a flip unnecessary?
     
  14. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    The Sith like to show off.
     
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  15. CIS Droid

    CIS Droid AOTC 20th Anniversary Banner Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Oct 21, 2015

    Like i said, i personally don't have a problem with flips, but i guess the Palpatine vs Mace duel and the start of Anakin Obi Wan duel is what annoys people.
     
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    The flips were done to reach the enemy faster. Unless people are implying that it's more efficient to just walk/run towards them, which in both cases I don't see how.
     
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  17. CIS Droid

    CIS Droid AOTC 20th Anniversary Banner Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Oct 21, 2015
    Thats true. I dont mind the flips,
     
  18. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2013
    Perhaps not more efficient, but it can be more ominous. Which is scarier: Darth Vader creeping up on you or Darth Vader spinning towards you?
     
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  19. CIS Droid

    CIS Droid AOTC 20th Anniversary Banner Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Oct 21, 2015
    When Count Dooku enters the Invisible Hand throne room does he do a jump or does he do flip? Im not the biggest fan off it anyways. Though, spinning fast can be scary if done right. Like the Palpatine duel spin.
     
  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Vader does a backflip and jumps towards Obi-Wan. It's much more efficient (and cinematic) than turning around and running towards him.
     
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  21. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    I don't prefer the OT or the PT duels. I like 'em all (almost)! I mean, it's people duelling with the coolest sci-fi weapon ever created :D

    But yeah, the PT and OT duels are different. Just because I'm a fight choreography (and especially lightsaber choreography - see my signature if you doubt me) geek, I'll do a mini-review of each one :p

    TPM:
    1. Qui-Gon vs Maul. I love this one! The close-ups, the whirling cloaks, the dust. It's a great teaser for what's to come.
    2. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Maul. This is without a doubt the best choreographed, shot and edited fight in the saga. As in, the choreography and execution is more or less flawless. It's less personal than the OT duels, but that's fitting. My favorite part is the very end of it - once Obi-Wan has severed Maul's lightsaber, the last few seconds of dueling is perfection IMHO.

    AOTC:
    1. Obi-Wan vs Dooku. Slow, uninteresting choreography. Edited in a confusing way. I don't buy that Obi-Wan would lose to Dooku, since Obi-Wan doesn't look as if he's trying half as hard as he does in every other duel he's in in the PT.
    2. Anakin vs Dooku. The dual saber bit is too short. Otherwise, it's really neat. I love the close-ups and the lighting. Really nice! The cinematography in this scene is wonderful!
    3. Yoda vs Dooku. It's alright. They didn't sell Yoda as a duelist that well in this film, if you ask me.

    ROTS:
    1. Obi-Wan and Anakin vs Dooku. The choreography flows well, it's well shot and edited. A big improvement over the duels in AOTC. I really enjoy this one!
    2. Obi-Wan vs Grievous. Yeah, they should've just not done this. It's unnecessary to have Grievous use lightsabers. The choreography is basically non-existing, because they couldn't figure out how to have a character use four lightsaber and not win.
    3. Mace (and three other guys I guess) vs Palpatine. They should've had the other Jedi at least try to do something instead of just standing there, waiting for a very slow and awkward Palpatine to cut them down. Then they should've taught Samuel L Jackson to hold a sword. I don't buy that Mace Windu is supposed to be this great swordmaster when he holds a lightsaber like this:
    [​IMG]
    The whole duel is sort of awkward and stiff. With the actors they had, they should have made it more like the duel in ANH, if you ask me. A chessgame, not a martial arts match.
    4. Yoda vs Sidious. Now they got both Yoda and the Emperor looking good. I think this duel works brilliantly throughout!
    5. Obi-Wan vs Anakin. Apart from some silly things (like that spin that everyone brings up), I'd say this is great. It's the one duel from the PT that really, really works on a dramatic level. And the cinematography is beautiful! I love it!

    And I'll do the OT ones just because.

    ANH:
    Obi-Wan vs Vader. Yeah, this one works because of the dialogue. That is where the real battle takes place. The fighting itself - well, it's not terrible. Still a lot better than Mace vs Palpatine.

    TESB:
    Luke vs Vader. Wonderful mood. Something I really like about the OT duels is that the music takes the backseat. The sounds of the lightsabers and Vader's breathing is what makes up the soundtrack. It's really quite lovely. The choreography here is good, but nothing special. It totally works though, because the drama and the changing of locations more than makes up for it.

    ROTJ:
    Luke vs Vader. The choreography here is extremely basic. The shots are tighter, and the editing faster - it's a sign of things to come in a way. It looks great though. The editing makes it flow very well. What's good in this one is the drama. The fighting itself isn't great, but it's still good.

    Now it sounds like I'm whining a bit here - but this is pretty nitpicky in places. All-in-all, I enjoy all the duels to a certain extent (except Grievous. That one's just terrible).
    I'm very much looking forward to seeing what the duels in the ST will look like :)


    EDIT: the first picture I posted apparently didn't work. I posted another, less clear one - I hope you still see my point (and that it works this time).
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Well, Vader leaps down the stairs at Luke during the carbonite chamber portion of the duel and he looked intimidating.
     
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    You do realize that is on a loop right?

    Best to watch the real thing:



    This is the point. These are 2 super-powerful Force using Jedi who have trained together and fought together for 13 years at this point. As they made the point over and again it's like fighting your mirror self.

    It's not just some measly sword fight between 2 opponents who don't know each other but a battle of heroes and brothers.

    BTW 22,720 likes and 634 dislikes so obviously the judgement of the public for these fights just like the prequels themselves is overwhelmingly positive.

    Doesn't mean anyone who doesn't like them has to agree of course but it's worth noting and knowing.
     
  24. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    the saber twirling in "the duel" is awesome. they are in the middle of the fight, sabers clashing and then they're both swinging in tandem and missing because they are so in sync that they're making the same moves.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Mr. Forest

    Mr. Forest Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I wonder if they filmed that shot with the long pools because if they did it's rather impressive how they were able to twirl the sabers around and towards each other like that.