Lightsaber speed vs. skill...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by MacetheCouncillor, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Excellent thread topic Master MacetheCouncillor

    This is NOT meant to offend anyone, but I've noticed that the only people around here bashing NG's George Lucas supported Lightsaber ranking are fans who seemed a little "peeved" that their favorite character was "dissed" to a lower tier than they expected.

    These are mostly Obi-Wan Kenobi fans who feel that since he survives ROTS and others don't he should "automaticly" be ranked higher.

    This notion makes no sense what-so-ever based on whats shown onscreen.

    1. We see Darth Maul suffer only a split hilt before easily force pushing Kenobi down a shaft....and from there its classic Lucas storytelling....leaving us to wonder..."why someone with split second Sith level reflexes cannot adapt to a man jumping from 12 feet below his position unarmed and landing armed in from of you after clearing your entire body?"
    We're led to believe in ROTS that this manuver is childlike and suicidal...by the way Kenobi tells/warns Anakin against trying a version of it.
    So basicly what we see is Kenobi get schooled by Darth Maul and somehow win in the end....but Kenobi is definitely shown NOT to be better than Darth Maul.(Not even hardcore Kenobi fans can say Kenobi displayed more skill)

    2. Next in AOTC....Kenobi is shown to have trouble even with non-force using Bounty Hunter Jango Fett...and later he is schooled by Count Dooku....only Anakin and later Yoda save him from certain death.

    3. Next in ROTS he is once again schooled by Dooku and left for dead....to be carried away by Anakin. He later holds his own against Grevious before losing his lightsaber and being beaten down in hand-to-hand combat. He is saved from death at the last moment by the luck of a waiting blaster a few yards from his position.

    4. He shows us his defensive mastery on Mustafar and beats Anakin straight up.

    But he is NEVER shown in a manner that would suggest he is at the Yoda/Mace/Sidious level. He gets disarmed in almost all of his fights....and seems to be more lucky than good. I love the Kenobi character personally, but I don't see why some feel you must tear the other ones down to build him up....regardless of what Lucas says?
  2. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    This is an entirely nonsensesicial sequence - I really wonder what Gillard has been thinking when choreographing that. No-one fighting for life or death would be waste energy as senseless as that.

    Trouble is that most fans discussing duels here have no knowledge of fencing. Thus the perception "the faster and the flashier, the better", and the idea that Mace's or Sidious' lightsaber techniques "suck". I wish there were more posters here with a background in fencing, I would be very interested in their comments on this.
  3. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    As far as a fictional story goes, characters' skills are what the story creator says they are, not what fanboys biased towards certain characters are. You can look onscreen all you want to try to determine who is more skilled, but the bottom line, and the point of this thread, is that who looks faster has nothing to do with who is more skilled.
    I am sorry that it pisses you biased fanboys off so much that I am more interested in the creator's story than in yours.


    Once an author has sent his book to be published, he can't change a word in it. It's kind of the same thing here. If what GL says doesn't match the film, then he is in the wrong.

    But how can you say the work does not support it. Yoda says Obi-Wan is not strong enough to fight Lord Sidious, whereas Mace outdueled ditto. It shows that regardless of who looks faster, Mace is more effective, even in the work itself. So where, exactly, does the work itself fail to show this.

    Fact is, Yoda has no idea how powerful Sidious really is, since he haven't met him since he revealed himself. Yoda simply doesn't want to take any chances by sending Obi-Wan in case Sidious really IS too strong for him. We are never given any evidence that Obi-Wan wouldn't be able to take on Sidious. I'm not saying he could, I'm just saying that we don't know!

    And again, Mace is shown to be more effective than Obi-Wan in the movie because he can outduel Sidious, which Obi-Wan can only dream of doing.

    If sissors can beat paper, then sissors must be the strongest, cos we all know what paper can do to rock!
    And once again - we don't know that!

    Again, speed has little to do with skill.

    Not necessarily "little to do with" it, since speed obviously is a plus. Against a really fast opponent, it doesn't matter how skilled you are - you have to be fast enough to defend yourself. Speed is far from everything though.

    Yeah, but the movie also shows that they can't easily break through their opponent's defenses. And Grievous is even faster, as any droid engineered for lightsaber combat could be.

    Where did people get the idea that Grevious was fast? He was spinning those blade insanely fast, yes, but he wasn't a fast fighter, and that's what counts, eh?

    Yeah, flipping your lightsaber sideways shows incredible skill. The one skilled and precise move I saw from Anakin was when he disarmed Dooku, not in the duel against Obi-Wan.

    Agreed, Anakin doesn't appear to be that skilled if you're really looking into it. However, he looked much, much more precise than anyone else (except Obi-Wan who looked about as good)!

    But, as I pointed out, I base my evaluation of skill on results, not looks, which Anakin delivered in the former, but not the latter.

    Not the best way of looking at it, but certainly not the worst either. Even the best loses sometime, y'know.
  4. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    The "fencers" were here months ago....you missed them

    They may return...
  5. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Darth_Carl who posted earlier in this thread is a first dan in kendo. Ask him if you want a swordfighter's opinion.
  6. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    No, I've read the posts - I'm just regretting that they have left, although I can understand it. If I'm not mistaken, the essence pointed to the same MTC posted. Lightsaber twirling without even touching the weapon of your opponent for several seconds is an utterly useless waste of energy.
  7. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Indeed. This section of the fighting seems to be most fanboys' favourite part though. Gee. I wonder what the heck Gillard was thinking? Or Lucas, who hired Gillard for that matter!
  8. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I don't know. Maybe it was just for pleasing the fanboys since Gillard from his background must know that this is nonsense. No-one would ever fight like that in a fight that is about life or death.
  9. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    What background is this? He certainly is no swordmaster, if that's what you think. In that case he would be able to choreograph good fights, moves with intent behind them, and footwork. He does neither.
  10. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Well he should have followed Christopher Lee's lead....because Lee IS a real life swordmaster who's taught the sweet science for decades.
  11. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Indeed, but Lee is more than 80 years old. I doubt he has much creativity in choreography left in him, since he is not able to perform swordsfighting anymore.
  12. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I thought he had a martial arts background at least. But then again, the flashiness vs. effectiveness question was a major issue in Wu Shu training for some time. Maybe I should do some research on his biography.
  13. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think he has that much MA-background. The wushu in TPM was choreographed by Ray Park. In fact, it is my belief that Ray Park choreographed the merepart of all the good stuff in TPM, and that Gillard took the credit.
  14. Darth_Carl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 1
    If to are very equal in style, realisticly they would NOT try to "out-speed" the other. That wouldn't realisticly work since they both know thier opponent so well, counter attacking is alot easier. Therefore I wouldn't imagine that they tried to win by speed; if Nick Gillard would have taken wanted to give a realistic fight (which probably would be a bit boring) he would rather let them both be very very carefull with each and every move; perhaps Anakin should be quite more offensive since he's alot more aggressive.

    What I'm really saying is:
    Don't try to analyse what the characters intention of their fighting was! This is stagefighting, which means alot of aesthetic, very little logic!

    One should know that there are some "logic" fights around, forexample the swordfighting in korusawa; this is though not stagefighting in the same manner. The difference is that one is "Action" and the other is "Drama". Action wants solely (well, most often anyways) to entertain, whiles drama (at least historical) quite often seeks to show how things perhaps are.
  15. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Basically, it would be the ANH duel.
  16. Darth_Carl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 1
    Without some silly spins and stuff... but yes, more or less...
  17. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    There's only one silly spin in ANH that I remember ;)
  18. maxwell1234 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2004
    star 1
    First off, how mature of you to act all defensive and tell me to shut up. Well done. :rolleyes:

    As far as fictional stories go, characters' skills are NOT what the creator says they are. They are what the story itself shows them to be. And it is perfectly clear you still do NOT get it.

    I am not a biased fanboy. In fact, whilst I enjoy Star Wars, I'm not obsessed with it to even a tenth the degree you are and not even a hundredth the degree some others in here are. I see the positives in Star Wars, but I also see some major flaws in several areas.

    I agree that speed and skill are separate entities, and being the fastest does not mean you are the most skilled. However, there IS a relation there, particularly if the speedier person is also more accurate. Great skill is a combination of speed and precision.


    Yes, you do. I would never dispute that. There's no need for you to be so defensive though.

    Lame logic there. Just because A beats C and someone says B isn't good enough to beat C, it doesn't automatically mean A is more skilful than B. If you think that, then you really are absolutely frickin clueless.
    Firstly, skill alone doesn't decide conflicts. Circumstances, emotions and desire all play at least much of a role.
    Secondly, a person will match up differently with different opponents. Just because they can beat B and B can beat C does NOT mean they will beat C.
    Thirdly, the work fails to show Mace is superior because he has a grand total of ONE duel and ends up dead at the end of it. Obi-Wan has a number of duels during the prequel trilogy and apart from the two against Dooku (who he didn't match up well against at all), Obi-Wan won them all through perserverance.

    Ah, but where's the evidence in the movies that outduelling Sidious is something "Obi-Wan can only dream of doing"?? Yoda's offhand remark toward the end of the film totally contradicts what is shown previously. Obi-Wan is shown to be fast and sk
  19. supwithbates Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2005
    In real life it does have a huge bearing on skill, slower moves are easier to block whereas faster moves aren't as well broadcasted. The reason the "quick movement" in the duel didn't win it for anakin or obiwan was because that's how Lucas choreographed it, not b/c speed =|skill. Too much attention to detail, if you ask me... Lucas doesn't think this deeply about it, so it isn't meant to be thought this deeply into because ANY movie will fall apart under this much scrutiny.
  20. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 4





    On my posts I always said that I never use the Lightsaber rankings as proof on a jedi's lightsaber's skills because I always thought that the lightsaber rankings were based on Nick Gillard's own opinion but I was told that they were based on George lucas's comments but i still do not use those lightsaber rankings as proof because the jedi with the higher lightsaber ranking does not always win because Anakin was ranked a level 9 and Obi-wan was ranked as a level 8 and Obi-wan won so Obi-wan proves that the jedi with the higher lightsaber ranking does not always win.






    No, I believe that Obi-wan would not be beat so easly because Obi-wan's deffence are very powerful .
  21. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 4


    [face_shame_on_you] No it would not take twenty seconds because Obi-wan is alot more faster and his deffence are very strong that is the reason Obi-wan went to face grevious and speed does matter alot.
  22. Fat_Bird Jedi Knight

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    Jul 1, 2005
    star 2
  23. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

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    Nov 11, 2005
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  24. Fat_Bird Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2005
    star 2
    Let's just ignore that the person who started the thread and is so adamant about the ratings mattering the most is a hardcore Mace fan. And gee whiz, don't you know that Mace was among the group who got the highest rating! Now why would a Mace fan care so much about the rating? Hmmm... could it be because that's just about the only "proof" most Mace fans have of his supposed skill since it's certainly not shown in the movie?

    And can I say that Dooku didn't beat Obi-Wan with his lightsaber skills? He beat him with a Force shove that knocked him out cold (kind of hard to defend against that). That's more of a show of Dooku's skill with the Force and not much to do with his skill with his lightsaber. Don't you think? ;)
  25. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 4




    good post,=D= I agree with everything in your post,[:D] [face_dancing] The lightsaber rankings do not exist in star wars and George Lucas did not really make it and I never hear George Lucas using them when he talkes about a jedi's fighting skills so those lightsaber rankings are not really proof at all.[face_peace] :) :cool:
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