Lightsaber speed vs. skill...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by MacetheCouncillor, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    As I see it there are ten elements to a fight.

    1. skills (natural abilities or practiced techniques, either can be very helpful in a fight)
    2. experience (It's true; knowledge is a powerful weapon)
    3. terrain (if you choose to fight in say a collapsing tunnel then you have two opponents, which i'd say puts you in an unenviable position for the fight.)
    4. psychology (if one's mindset is not striaght then its best not to fight)
    5. speed (this was the decider of rank for the gunfighters of the old west. if you can strike faster than your opponent then you may not have to waste any time with him afterwards)
    6. strategy (sometimes having a superior plan can offset all the other factors)
    7. strength (rock beats scissors kinda thing)
    8. endurance (how much damage one can take and how long one can last at whatever pace is set in the fight)
    9. mitigating circumstances (if a duelist was hurt in a previous fight before then it'll effect his performance in the next duel wouldn't it.)
    10. plain dumb luck (suppose in a fight your opponent is winning hands down but then has a heart attack and drops dead on the floor. Being just plain lucky may not be that flashy or cool but you're alive and your opponent isn't)
    All ten combines dynamically and quite unpredictably to decide the outcome.

    Now, as to rankings and what not...I think George gave gillard those rankings to help him choreograph the movie. (Some of which I'd wish he'd have tweaked here and there-like when Sidious unpantsed four topnotch Jedi in a matter of seconds :rolleyes: -but I digress) I don't think the rankings are any real indications that mace would take obi-wan to school if they really ever fought eachother. And even if it was it would only cover that duelist's skill, experience, speed, endurance, and strength-only five of the ten factors that decide a fight.


    As for the importance of speed over skill, neither is more important than the other, but neither are either less important than the other.
  2. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    1. Jocking each other's posts does little to give it merit[face_shame_on_you]


    ....You say that Dooku never bests Kenobi with a lightsaber? Why would he even bother? He broke him down in AOTC WITH a lightsaber in like 19-21 moves and accomplished the same result in ROTS in 6-9 moves with an added force push....that spells "progress" to me. Why fight an inferior but potentially dangerous opponent if he is so below you in class you can merely force throw him into a post and drop something on him in a split second?....leaving him at your mercy.

    Sure Kenobi got better with a lightsaber between AOTC and ROTS....but that didn't really matter because Dooku still "owned" him in the brains department....meaning the Count was always going to figure out how to fight the best fight for himself.

    You say that Mace Windu has never accomplished anything and that his rankings are not supported by Lucas?

    WOW

    Lucas created Mace Windu at Yoda's level...penned him the victor in the Darth Sidious duel...and even allowed the OS to say Sidious was "overpowered" by Master Windu.

    I'm not biased towards any characters, but saying that Mace is not shown to deserve his level 9 rank is crazy....unless you think Sidious is weaker than Dooku AND Grevious[face_whistling]

    Remember....Lucas said that only Mace and Yoda could even compete with Sidious in ROTS....thus pushing Kenobi and even Anakin and Dooku to a lower tier overall.

    If certain fans don't like that assessment....they'll have to take it up with Lucas
  3. DarthNidLoc Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2005
    star 3
    Hi guys(and gals) I gotta agree with I poodoo on those points. Alot of the same points Mushasi Minyamoto(sp) one of the most legendary samurai swordsmen made in his book, The book of Five Rings.
  4. legion_of_me Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2005
    star 1
    Outstanding post! Definitely one of the more educated opinions on this subject.


  5. legion_of_me Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2005
    star 1
    Mace was a great fighter that we really don't see fight at his full potential. His character information says that he was one of the greatest swordsmen in the galaxy.

    Or something to that degree

    I would have liked to have seen a real swordsman do Mace's fight scenes. Sam was good, but a professional swordsman would have been much better. At least it would have done the character more justice.

    George Lucas has been known to reverse himself on things over the years. Not that I'm saying he's a liar but it's just something to be aware of.


  6. Hypernova Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 2
    Its fair to say that Mace Windu was probably the best with a lightsaber in the Star wars saga.

    Vader would have gone on to better him if only by sheer attunement to the force.

    But thats all hearsay...........he could have been better or well, maybe he could beat him on a good day.

    Facts speak loudest.
    If I was a Jedi and was going in harms way............I'd want Mace Windu at my side.
  7. Red1441 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2005
    I apologize If someone posted this and I missed it. Grievous is just a droid. I know he's a cyborg and all, but his skill was programmed, he can swing the blade fast, but his duel with Obi-Wan clearly showed how predictable all of his moves were. He's definitely good for a non-Jedi, but thats as far as it goes.
  8. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 4






    Dooku and Obi-wan do not really battle with a lightsaber that long so I am not saying who is better with a lightsaber. In episode 2 Dooku was stronger then both Anakin and Obi-wan but Obi-wan did improve more and Obi-wan was getting to dooku's level. Dooku needed to finish off Obi-wan with the force because he needed to test Anakin so he used the force.




    I never said that Mace is weaker.[face_shame_on_you] I already know that Mace is on Yoda's level in fighting. But I do not see it anywhere it saying that George Lucas created the lightsaber rankings.:confused: I always thought that Nick Gillard created those lightsaber rankings to help him create the lightsaber battles.
    Show me evedince that George Lucas created the lightsaber rankings.
    In episodes 1,2,3 Mace was the jedi that was on Yoda's level but in episodes 4,5,6 Obi-wan was the jedi that was on Yoda's level.
  9. Obi-Twice-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2003
    star 2
    That's the problem. Grievous was MENT to be such an effective killer that only the best of the best of the Jedi order could hope to survive an encounter with him, meaning that he was much more than just good for a non-jedi. But the movies we see SHOW him as a coughing rooster, and considering how easily ObiWan got rid of his ah-so-scary 4 lightsabers, hardly as a really threatening enemy. As with Mace Windu, the difference between what we are TOLD to see and what we really DO see is - once again - enormous. And that's why almost all of those silly power rankings, no matter whether presented by GL or NG, are inconsistent with the movies and thus amusing at best.

    Use common sense and make up your own mind based on what you see onscreen, and don't let any director or stunt coordinator give you your own opinion.
  10. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    if grievous is no good, then where does that leave shaak-ti and the other jedi who were defeated by grievous?!?!
  11. emporergerner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2005
    star 4
    Greivous was good, but Obi-wan was better way better. I do not belive that Greivous was that weak, but that just Obi-Wan is just a much better fighter and Greivous did'nt stand a chance.
    Greivous killed some very powerful Jedi and gave Ki-Adi Mundi a run for his money.



    Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith
  12. Darth_Carl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 1
    You forgott one; Creativity which can be more than helpfull (it's done alot for me in my Kendomatches)
  13. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Probably at the same level as Saesse Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto: the bad level.
  14. King_KAM Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    EDIT: No need for that
  15. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    waht i see onscreen is that grievous is a coward weakling that cant use the force
  16. Haynesworth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2005
    That's pretty good. The first entry is amazing though.
  17. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    already watched it.wich one is TFC ? what software did you use ?
  18. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks :) Don't really agree about the first one though. It got my vote, but I really don't find it that hot.
    Not saying that ours was better of course. Tons of stuff I feel we could've done better.


    I'm the guy with the blue lightsaber, and Darth_Carl is the one with red. We used Adobe Premier to edit, and Adobe Photoshop to create the saber effects.
  19. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Brilliant post. I've been trying to convince MacetheCouncillor of this for a while, but he just doesn't get it.


    he doesnt get what ? that he is right ?


    I mean, god forbid Star Wars fans should have to try and figure anything else out for themselves. Let's all just desperately search for meaningless quotes from George Lucas, Nick Gillard, etc to twist and use to support our own view.


    " you have to be either yoda or mace to compete with the emperor" is not cryptic or vague or meaningless, its actually the truth, the emperor faced 6 jedi and 4 of them were owned, guess what ? only mace and yoda managed to give him a run for his money, lucas was right ,maybe you should cry.


    once your misconceptions have been proven wrong then you let go of them, going into this "im right and the guys who made the movie are wrong" attitude only makes you become a joke and lose all credibility,this just proves that you want the truth but once you have it you just cant handle it



    I've been trying to point out that what a person says about their work doesn't mean sh!t if their actual work doesn't support it.


    in this case it does suport it, just read above. if you say that kenobi has as much chances of challenging sidious as mace or yoda then you are biased, end of the story.


    George Lucas has said that the Anakin-Padme relationship is a beautiful love story. LMAO!!! It's the most cringeworthy on screen relationship I've ever seen.
    It was MEANT to be a beautiful love story, but it sure as hell was NOT.




    thats nothing but lame bashing, some people liked their relationship some other dont, there is no deffinitive answer to " is anakin/padme relationship good or bad" because it all goes down to taste.
  20. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    Yeah, well I lost my temper because you were patronizing me, claiming that I didn't get something I can assure you I understood perfectly well.

    A few problems with this position.
    Not everyone agrees on what is shown in the work itself, because not everyone agrees about how one should analyse the work to pick out individual characters's relative power levels. Furthermore, fans who like one character more than another often see the work through glasses. Some miss details that point in one character's favor. Ultimately, when interpretations vary, we have only the creator as a final judge on which interpretation is valid.

    More patronizing crap. I get it, but I disagree.

    Yeah, well, it may be that you think so.

    And I didn't see either Anakin or Obi-Wan as very accurate in their duel. It was a rapid flurry of random blows, the way I saw it. Anakin against Dooku was accurate. As was Windu and Sidious in their duel.

    I got defensive because you attacked my position.

    Again, even more patronizing crap. Now I am clueless, too.
    And it is not like Yoda said Obi-Wan is not skilled enough to beat Sidious. He says Obi-Wan isn't strong enough to fight Lord Sidious. He is not even in Sidious' league as far as power goes. Supported by Lucas, I'd say the probablility of Obi-Wan being chanceless against Sidious is very close to 100%.
    I can agree with your logic so far as that Mace beating Sidious whereas Yoda was unable to do so does not prove Mace to be more skilled than Yoda, but Yoda is at least in Sidious league, and to go so far as to say that Mace is no more skilled than someone who isn't even in Sidious' league, it is too much.

    This does not apply solely to Star Wars. In Lord of the Rings, it is pretty clearly established that Gandalf is the only member of the fellowship who has some chance in combat against the Balrog of Moria. The Balrog is a foe beyond anything any of the other fellowship members can realistically fight with any degree of success. Anyway, Gandalf turns out to be fairly evenly matched with the Balrog, and kills the Balrog after a long fight.
    Do you think this means that Galdalf is stronger in combat than other fellowship members? I'd say, yes, beyond all reasonable doubt. If Gandalf faced Aragorn in a fight and held nothing back in the way of the magic he used against the Balrog, I see Gandalf coming out on top in a very overwhelming percentage of the time.

    So yes, regardless of work, if A beats B, who is totally above C's league, then I'd say that the probability of A being more skilled/powerful than C overall is overwhelming. Unless A holds back or C has a huge advantage against him or her, he/she should run very little risk of facing defeat at C's hand.

  21. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Maxwell and Mace stop the flame/baiting now. The next person who does it will be banned.
  22. the_unknowable_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2005
    star 4
    hhmmmmmmmmmmmm[face_thinking], grievous was only being flashy with his speed in the fight against Obi-wan Kenobi, and that cost him dearly. while speed is a good thing, one cannot have speed with out skill.
  23. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    TigerCraneFist
    Probably at the same level as Saesse Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto: the bad level.


    [face_laugh] true enough!
  24. Ceethreepio Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 5
    So why should Obi-Wan and Anakin spinning their sabers crazy fast sideways when they dueled each other impress me It wasn't there to impress it was to show that they are equal and they don't know when or how to attack
  25. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    come on, any real swordsman could own any of the questioned
    participants. It absolutely is about visual entertainment and
    storytelling. I'm not saying that they aren't skilled, because
    they are... I was quite impressed by Ewan, Hayden and even Liam's
    swordsmanship, but it's movie swordsmanship with weapons
    that defy physics.

    The results of these duels are about advancing
    a storyline, and the efforts made by LF to some how legitimize
    fictional swordplay really detracts from the experience, rather
    than support it.

    Again, not a knock against Nick Gilliard and his training of
    the boys, but it seems to me that the OT swordplay is actually
    closer to the mark than the flashy flashiness of the PT.

    But I enjoy that. Otherwise, I'd be watching fencing championships
    on ESPN3 (the tre) rather than Star Wars.

    Let the duelist acrimony and polemic cease...
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