Lightside Jedi with doublebladed lightsabers, yes or no?

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Jedi_Xen, Oct 2, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    I run a campaign based in the Rise of the Empire. One of my characters is a Jedi Guardian and wanted a doublebladed lightsaber, as the GM I told him only dark Jedi carry this lightsaber.

    My argument is a Jedi carries a lightsaber for defense, a double bladed lightsaber is used for attack, hence why it was alright for both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to fight Maul at the same time.

    I would like to get other peoples opinions.
  2. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    The lightsaber is an effective tool and it is a lethal tool to be used as a last resort. The double bladder saber is made for one purpose: To be more effective at killing. If my Jedi wanted to make one, I would give him a darkside point at it's creation and at every use because of the philosophy of aggression that the weapon is built on/promotes.

    In short, it would be that Jedi's path to the darkside! <evil GM smile>
  3. Sith Magician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1999
    star 5
    Gotta agree with that, I try to say no to my players as little as I possibly can.
    Of course, the consequences of their actions are another thing altogether [face_devil]
  4. Crimson_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
    I wouldn't allow it. Besides in the darkside book it says something about having to find a sith holocron to make one or something like that.
  5. _SithSpawn_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 4
    Doesn't the dark side sourcebook say pretty much the exact same thing as Wylding is saying except for the Dark Side Point?
  6. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
  7. Crimson_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, pretty much. I was just pointing out a limitation they mentioned.
  8. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Fact is, the lightsaber has been designed to end fights as fast as possible, which means it's a weapon suited to defeat an opponent very quickly. And to defeat an opponent as quickly as possible, you have to take an offensive stance. The lightsaber, thus, is a weapon designed for a most effective aggression.

    The double-bladed lightsaber's design, on the other end, is much like that of the quarterstaff. Properly used, it can defend against one weapon and make an attack simultaneously, allowing you to stay defensive and be offensive at the same time. Unlike the lightsaber, which forces you to privilege offense other defense, the double-bladed one allows you to strike a balance between offense and defense, and yet win the fight. I don't see what's Dark-Sidish in ensuring oneself will need not lowering one's defenses to perform attack.

    Besides, there is a logic behind the fact it's the Sith who invented this weapon, that is not of the Dark Side at all, it's based on the very core of man's entire behavior : the survival instinct.
    The Sith, for as long as they have been using lightsabers, have been very few. Unlike the Jedi, they can seldom count on a partner to cover them while they attack. The weapon allows them to partly compensate the unfavorable odds, giving them better chances to survive.
    I don't think you have to blame the Sith for wanting to survive. You can blame them for wanting to perform evil deeds, but you can't blame them for not wanting to cross a street crowded with fast-pacing cars without any sort of caution.

    Where the thing becomes tricky is, if I will allow one of my Jedi PCs to use a double-bladed lightsaber, he will have to design it from scratch.

    The prerequisites I'm currently requiring to desing one are :

    -> Int 16+
    -> Having reached Jedi Master in one Jedi Class for Light-Side users.
    -> Having accumulated 13 Force-user levels in one Jedi class + one Dark Side prestige class for Dark-Side users.
    -> 15+ ranks in Craft (lightsaber).
    -> Three months focusing on this eight hours per day, without adventuring.

    At the end of the time spent designing, I'll call for a Craft (lightsaber) roll against DC 31 to succeed. A roll of 26- will mean the design has been botched (which means the PC must not see the result of his roll), and both lightsaber blades will cease activating forever when they're first ignited together. A roll of 22- will mean the double-bladed lightsaber will explode upon activation, killing off the Jedi unless he succeeds a Reflex save DC 31, and he still takes 4d6 WOUND damage on a successful save. All other people in a 50' radius take 10d6 damage from the blast (Reflex for Half). This represents the energy cells discharging entirely in a ridiculous amount of time.
  9. ZaiShanZo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 1
    I agree somewhat with LordBan's comments but his suggestiion for a 4d6 killing explosion goes somewhat against my grain as I don't believe in killing off a PC solely on the basis of one bad die roll, or at the very least I avoid it whenever possible.

    I also take issue with the idea that the double-saber is oriented more towards defense than the single saber. Using swords analogy, Lightsabers like longswords and rapiers can certainly be used for defenses and parrys, that's part of what's assumed that goes around in a combat round. A person who's carrying a two handed blade is going for offense pure and simple.

    Here's my suggested requirements.

    Exotic Weapon Proficiency -Lightsaber
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency -Double Bladed Lightsaber

    Jedi Level: Jedi Master

    Craft Lightsaber DC tests should be about 10-15 above DC's for normal lightsabers.

    Due to the size of this weapon and it's two-handed requirement, the Weapon Finesse feat may not be used for this weapon. As Weapon Finesse requires a hand free, it also can not be used for a double bladed saber used in separated mode. (as in Darth Maul's special double saber). The DC btw for Darth Maul's particurlar saber is suggested to be at 25.

    (without this proficiency, the character takes an additional -4 to each attack on top of the normal rules for double weapons. Even with proficency the normal modifications for fighting with a double weapon apply.

    Character must also discover the knowledge for making such a lightsaber through game play.

    Characters developing a double style are learning a more agressive form of fighting so they must be especially careful of avoiding slipping into a darkside mode of combat.
  10. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    Well, I do know that the Jedi Micah Giiett weilded two lightsabers in Acts of War, so it won't be much of a stretch to go from two lightsabers to a double-bladed lightsaber, or lightstaff. I'm not certain, but I think some of the Jedi in Attack of the Clones will be weilding these double-bladed lightsabers.
  11. QuiGonJon Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Wars don't make one great. Neither does a double bladed lightsaber make one evil. That's just my opion, but here's something to twist your noodle.
    If you had a Jedi character who fell to the dark side, took one of the "Sith" templates, leveled in it, got the two-handed fighting and ambidexteriy feat, built a double bladed light saber, and then performed a redeming act and came back to the light side. Would you really make that player give up all those feats, and build a new light saber so he can play a Jedi?
  12. Valdus1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    The lightsaber is an extention of a Jedi... in personality and belief on how the force should be used. In the Old Republic I could see how a blade design could be limited to a single blade.... but in the NJO I would think if the knowledge was out there... you would see all kind of odd things. Maybe thats just my creative side speaking out.

    - V
  13. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Yes I would make him build a new SINGLE bladed lightsaber. As has been said before the Jedi weild a lightsaber for DEFENSE, one blade is suficient to do this. A dark Jedi, Sith or whatever dark force user would want to build a double bladed lightsaber to kill, it becomes a weapon of destruction and not a weapon of defense.

    A Jedi who redeems himself would be willing to give up his destructive ways and return to a defender. I have to purchase the Dark Side source book to see if it mentions it in there, Ive been told it does so.
  14. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Read my post above Xen ;) To conclude a battle effectively (with a death conclusion, not if you can afford fleeing) the single-bladed forces you to assume an offensive stance. The double-bladed one still allows you to defend yourself and your close allies while you take a risk and attack your opponent.
  15. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Lordban, all you are really saying is that it is more effective at killing. Which is why the darkside sourcebook agrees with me.
  16. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    What's the point of the lightsaber, if not killing with utmost efficiency and with as little pain as possible ? You could draw upon the Force to have your foe missaim shots rather than parry them, you could employ deception rather than lighting your blade and say "I'm the Jedi here, so everybody stay quiet"...

    If you're in for killing, as you sometimes have to, then you just do it as effectively as possible.
    If you can ensure that you'll be the winner of the fight, hence destroying the evil whose "incarnation" you have to slay, better you need not sacrifice yourself to destroy it when it could be avoided.

    A remark : why would a Jedi be able to wield two lightsabers without getting a DSP and take a DSP when wielding a double-blade one ? With two separate blades he's horribly more effective at killing - based on live experience of testing different weapon combos, twin-sword fighting is incredibly more effective than fighting with a quarterstaff when otherwise on even terms.
  17. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Lordban wrote: "What's the point of the lightsaber, if not killing with utmost efficiency and with as little pain as possible ? You could draw upon the Force to have your foe missaim shots rather than parry them, you could employ deception rather than lighting your blade and say "I'm the Jedi here, so everybody stay quiet"..."

    Looking at the way that you percieve Jedi powers it's no wonder that you have these difficulties in understanding what I'm trying to say. Your last sentence there really shows that you think on some level that the Jedi are superior to other beings. When clearly they aren't. ie. "I'm the Jedi here, so everybody stay quiet."

    Revealing yourself as a Jedi to other sentients and then demanding they do something based on that smacks of the darkside. It is made clear in the movies and in the books that behavior of this sort is not in following with the Jedi code.

    "If you're in for killing, as you sometimes have to, then you just do it as effectively as possible."

    It is/has been demonstrated time and time again that you can be extreemly effective with a single bladed saber. A doublebladed saber is made partly to instill fear and most assuredly to kill more effectively. Look at those words: Kill effectively. A Jedi should defend effectively and then kill only when he has to as a last resort. A single bladed saber is just fine for this purpose.

    There is a disadvantage to killing more effectively. You don't wear your less experienced opponents down. A Jedi would lose the chance to try and turn them from the darkside.

    "If you can ensure that you'll be the winner of the fight, hence destroying the evil whose "incarnation" you have to slay, better you need not sacrifice yourself to destroy it when it could be avoided."

    I don't really see your point because, your argument presupposes that you need two weapons or a better (offensive) weapon to be effective at defending yourself. Fact is, you don't. You can see throughout the movies and books that the Jedi do just fine without a doublebladed saber. In fact, Obi-Wan defeated Maul without a doublebladed saber and Maul was supposed to be a "master" with one (or at least that's what I've read).

    "A remark : why would a Jedi be able to wield two lightsabers without getting a DSP and take a DSP when wielding a double-blade one ? With two separate blades he's horribly more effective at killing - based on live experience of testing different weapon combos, twin-sword fighting is incredibly more effective than fighting with a quarterstaff when otherwise on even terms."

    As to your above remark, I would give the Jedi a DSP if he used two lightsabers. There is an inherent aggression assumed in picking up an additional weapon. However, that's just me as a GM, just be glad you're not my player. I sense that we would have conflicts.
  18. ZaiShanZo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 1
    The point of a light saber is that it is a tool to wield the will of the Force, a focus point for understanding the web of Force between the wielder and all living things.

    "Not so random and clumsy as a blaster" - Obiwan Kenobi.

    With the use of a lightsaber, a Jedi Knight literally strikes to the heart of a problem. But it is a weapon of defense, not attack, to be used when a disruption of the Force requires it, not to seek out conflict, but to balance it.

    Jedi seek to do this with as minimum disruption as possible. When neccessary, they will kill. If sufficient, they will wound. If possible, they will accomplish their aims without leaving a mark.

    Lightsabers are not just another form of sword, if they were then there would be many non-Jedi, non-Force using saber wielders. But there aren't and that's because it's only the Force which allows true union between the Knight and the crystals in the blades hilt, and the beam that is it's shaft. It is the Force which protects the wielder from the dangers of his own weapon. Similarly, the double-sided blade is not just a technological advancement of the light saber, it is a Way in and of itself, a warriors path of aggression and intimidation that leads it's wielder almost inevitably to the Dark Side.
  19. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Ah, this is getting out of the debate on weapons, and this requires some clarifications from my part.

    * Why I mention the "I am the Jedi here, so everybody stay quiet" :

    Look at the way people react in ANH when Obi-Wan draws his lightsaber and cuts down an arm. Everybody is stunned, nobody moves, there's absolute silence.
    A few moments later, Han Solo and Greedo meet. Greedo draws his blaster, and it draws no attention. Han kills Greedo, and he gets away with it without anybody bothering (save for Wuher perhaps, because he gets some more work to do).

    Now compare both events. The fact Obi-Wan only deals a wound, and Han kills someone, would have Han's kill have more impact. Apart from this, there isn't much difference - ie two customers starting a fight. The only other difference is that while Han uses a blaster, Obi-Wan drew a lightsaber.

    The mere sight of the weapon of the Jedi is enough to freeze everybody. They know they're seeing the stuff of legends : a lightsaber, a weapon that only a few people saw of late, and hence a Jedi wielding it.

    And they ARE FRIGHTENED. They're suddenly accountable for the crimes they'll commit while the Jedi is present ; they're suddenly aware that a Justicar is among them, and ready to deal justice - he's already done so. And they know they couldn't defeat the Jedi - they know he is ACTUALLY superior to them, thanks to his powers and skills.

    --

    * "your argument presupposes that you need two weapons or a better (offensive) weapon to be effective at defending yourself. Fact is, you don't."

    Well, the fact is you're better prepared to defend yourself when you can block two strikes at a time. With your two blades, you can block two sabers quite distant from each other. With one blade, you can't (if Maul had had one blade he wouldn't even have stood a chance to lure Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan into his trap in the first place, he'd have died before, he might have been a master, but Qui-Gon was too, Obi-Wan was pretty skilled himself, and at the beginning of the fight Qui-Gon wasn't tired ; btw the duel between Qui-Gon and Maul demonstrates quite well the edge Maul's two blades give him, Maul can defend himself better and still attack as accurately as Qui-Gon).

    * "I would give the Jedi a DSP if he used two lightsabers."

    Re-read Dark Tide - Onslaught. I don't think you can GM honestly such a situation AND give Luke Skywalker a Dark Side point, just because he's wielding two sabers.
    The Jedi try avoiding entering fights as best as they can. But when they enter figths, they ensure that they're as short as possible - ie they ensure that they're as combat-effective as possible.
    This is the reason why the lightsaber was created in the first place - "an elegant weapon, not so random and clumsy as a blaster", which can be rephrased into "a weapon more effective and requiring more skill than a blaster". Then what in seeking effectiveness and skill prevents using effective and skill-demanding weapons ? Why would there be Darkness in the act of seeking to defend as best as you can, and end fights as quickly and as mercifully as possible ? If there is, then logics point you towards giving a DSP to a character everytime he uses a weapon better than his bare fists.

    --

    * Why I'll still defend the double-bladed lightsaber :

    As I mentioned above, the double-bladed saber is a quarterstaff with energy blades, ie a weapon extremely close to another mainly employed in medieval context by mages, clerics and monks to defend themselves (mages use other means to attack, clerics use other weapons when they want to attack, monks are not attackers by nature).

    An example, based on your saying "A Jedi should defend effectively and then kill only when he has to as a last resort. A single bladed saber is just fine for this purpose [defending]."

    Well, let's assume the Jedi is protecting some important person, unable to defend herself. Then, let's assume that three shooters fire at the same moment, two at the Jedi and one at the actual target. Let's assume they aren't forming up a
  20. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    It's about time someone just ended this with a definitive quote from the darkside sourcebook...
  21. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Will go and look for it ;)
  22. Crimson_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
    Hey, Wylding should I send YY here to put in his two cents?
  23. Yun-Yuuzhan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 4
    What should it matter how many lightsabers or how many blades? The fact is that lightsabers are weapons used for offensive and defensive purposes. You should the one you find most effective for your purposes.
  24. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    I would allow a Lightside Jedi to build one in any era. If they are doing the right thing it doesn't matter. And as for having to have a Sith Holocron to make one... use a little imagination. One of my players has one. He build two with slightly longer handles and them welded them together. Unless someone can sight the source stating that welding is a lost Sith art I will continue to allow this weapon and as long as my player is a good little Jedi he won't see any DSPs for using it.
  25. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Like I said, it's time for someone to quote the DS Sourcebook and end the debate.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.