Lightside Jedi with doublebladed lightsabers, yes or no?

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Jedi_Xen, Oct 2, 2001.

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  1. Crimson_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
    Wylding, I do it but I don't have my book with me. 'Sides what quote do you want?
  2. El Kabong Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 1999
    star 3
    That, in my opinion, is crazy. Why is one form of a weapon light and the other dark - when in essence they do the exact same thing? If the double blade - oh, say sucked the soul out of the person it hit, then sure - but it doesn't do anything more than a standard lightsaber.

    People seem to take this whole "Use the Force for knowledge and defense" as "A Jedi cannot act AT ALL, period. End of story." Clearly this is not the case - since we see folks using the Lightsaber Combat skill (and whatever the D20 version is) all the time, all over the place. Why folks are trying to color the Jedi as passive wimps is beyond me.

    Now - I also think that since TPM, double edged sabers have become overused and trite. I'd disallow it on *THAT* principle, but not on any moral or ethical ground.
  3. Crimson_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
    I don't view Jedi as wimps. And I do agree that some do take the 'knowledge and defense' quote out of hand and that the double saber is starting to be overused.
  4. Anakin_Solo73 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 2
    My thoughts:

    We see that Darth Maul and Exur Kun used double-bladed lightsabers as a way to destory more people at one time. The weapon seems to be established as a weapon of evil. Although, this does not mean that the weapon itself is exactly evil. A teacher could tell a student that the weapon was a weapon of choice for many of the Failed/Dark Jedi. A single blade would serve as much purpose as a double-blade. If the student were to complete a double-bladed lightsaber, as a gamemaster, I would tempt the student with the darkside more than the others.
  5. Master_Tsukikage Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2001
    Here are a few choice quotes:

    DSSB pg. 059
    "The Jedi Council disapproves of [double-bladed lightsabers], though, noting that the only reason to carry such a weapon is to kill more effetively."

    "Double-bladed lightsabers, like Jedi lightsabers, must be taken from their creators, discovered at ancient sites, or created using plans found only in rare Sith holocrons."

    The DSSB also makes it very clear that it is a weapon designed, constructed, and implemented only by the Sith. Even if your character was true to the Jedi Code, he or she would get a lot of funny looks carrying something like that around.

    -Master Tsukikage
  6. Crimson_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
  7. El Kabong Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 1999
    star 3
    "The Jedi Council disapproves of [double-bladed lightsabers], though, noting that the only reason to carry such a weapon is to kill more effetively."

    That's nonsense. A Jedi pulls his weapon as the last resort, when *ALL* other methods have failed him. However, when he does pull his weapon - its all about striking fast and hard. When a lightsaber comes out, people die - plain and simple, end of story.

    Why is two blades any more evil than one? End result with both weapons - people die when a Jedi gets serious. It's a tool, nothing more - and a Jedi should trained well enough to know how and when to use the tool. If they don't - they have no business being in the field.
  8. Crimson_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
    A tool? Anyway if you want to let just any Jedi get a double bladed go ahead, I'm going to keep it highly restricted myself.
  9. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    MT quoted the official rule book there though so, that being said it isnt right for a Jedi that serves the lightside to have a double bladed lightsaber. People don't always die when a Jedi pull his weapon either, if a Jedi could disarm an aggressor by say, slicing his blaster in two, then thats what he will do, the force is very fickle, but the way I understand it, killing is a last resort, and if a Jedi could disarm a person and elects to kill him because he has his weapon out, then thats a dark side point.

    "When a Jedi pulls out his/her lightsaber he or she must be prepared to take a life" not
    "When a Jedi pulls out his/her lightsaber he or she has to take a life"
  10. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    I keep seeing these quotes from the CRB and Dark Side Sourcebook pointing out that the Code forbids it and the Council wouldn't approve it. Thats just fine in a campaign set when they were around and the ENTIRE code was right there for a Jedi to study and learn from.

    But what about a campaign set after Luke begins training Jedi. There is no Council, he doesn't have the entire code (I do admit that I may be incorrect about how much of the code he has). Not only that, the New Jedi are different from the old.

    The old Jedi carried lightsabers and went out under orders from the Council or asked by someone higher up in the Senate. They didn't really act on their own. And where did following that code get them. They all died. Not exactly the code I would want to follow.

    The new Jedi are out there on there own for the most part, acting rather than reacting. They carry blasters as well as their lightsaber. It seems to me that the New Jedi Order needs a New Jedi Code. One that includes allowing the use of a different kind of lightsaber if one chooses to use one.

    Nobody questions Corran's lightsaber. It suddenly gets longer so he can kill people from farther away. Is this really that different?

    I know, the knowledge of how to build such a weapon no longer exists bla, bla, bla. Like I said before, build two lightsabers, weld them together or connect them however you wish and there you have a double lightsaber. How hard is that?
  11. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Ahh Quiwan. Where would we be without your light to guide us? Afterall, you are the authority on what it is to be a Jedi.
  12. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Now now no need for rudeness. Things are different in the NJO, and if he wants to run a campaign that allows the Jedi to carry double bladed lightsabers, thats his choice. I only have one Jedi in my group at this point and he has been warned if he builds a double bladed lightsaber he will be penalized for it. This taken place during the Jedi Academy (Only I loathe most of the EU, I put the Praxeum on Coruscant in the old Jedi Temple as opposed to a distant moon that was the site of a major battle.) Luke and Leia searched the temple and pieced together the entire code.
    The old Jedi code, however difficult for me to understand not being in tune with the Force, was a great code for the Jedi, they existed 25,000 years, survived wars and inner conflicts. When a Sith Master becomes Chancellor, it spells certain doom for the Jedi, it was the Sith not the code that destroyed the Jedi.
  13. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Ahh Xen you're right. I posted that in haste and in an ill temper. I apologize Quiwan.
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Though less Mythic it's declared by George Lucas that double bladed lightsabers are routinely used by Jedi trainees to perfect their fighting style.

    Obviously Darth Maul decided to stick with it and develop it to incorporate the weapon. A fighting style very lethal.

    As for lightsabers being tools I used the rules that it is like creating a kattana. A Jedi must attune a lightsaber to his soul and the very hum of a lightsaber serves as a focus for his spirit.

    If it was just two weapons then a Jedi would be penalized for using two swords or two blasters or even grenades or turbolasers because they kill much more effectively than both but in my campaign you are literally extending yourself into two seperate weapons that become part of yourself.

    You make yourself a killing machine.

    In my campaign ALL killing is of the Dark Side so that creating a lightsaber with two blades and wielding will make you go evil (the knowledge is not forbidden but it is intricate and requires careful study lest you be unable to use it effectively).

    So a lightside Jedi using two sabers or a double bladed lightsaber isn't necessarily evil but he is a being who has a weapon that is intricately tied to his body and devoted to war twice as much as a Jedi is who has the same with his regular saber.

    I can tell from your post however that at least one of you is probably a martial artist and probably has some fondness for the quarterstaff.

    This is a misconception because Darth Maul is most definately not using a quarterstaff but a sword with a very small handle while some of teh fighting is the same if he fought like a quarter staff completely he'd probably lose an arm or a leg and a quarter staff can be used to disarm an opponent...

    With a 2-bladed lighstaber you most definately can disarm an opponent but it's much more literal.

    In my campaign I would just give the same warning I gave our Jedi Master (who fell to the Dark Side)

    "By constructing such a weapon you reflect your inner soul and your inner soul says that you will be a tireless foe of evil...however unlike other Jedi your weapon is much more a part of you and morever from this day violence will be your creed and trickery....necessary? Perhaps but the lightsaber merely reflects what's in your heart."

    Basically in my campaign fighting styles and lightsabers say alot about a man, a man with two lightsabers is inelegant in killing but much more connected to it than a lightsaber while a Double bladed lightsaber wielder unless he chops his arms off is even more intimately aquainetd with it.

    Neither is necessarily evil (let alone the first who wields a lightsaber-weapon at all and as a pacifist I think that IS horrible) but they tell alot about their philosophy of battle
  15. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    Since i am pretty fond of the sith/dark jedi, i really think that only dark siders should be allowed to use the double-bladed sabre. not just because of my preference, but because it all gets to similar then. The sith should have some distinctiveness, like the double balded sabre and other exotic weaponry(like the flamesabre Darth Tyrannus will weild in epII). The jedi all use the simple lightsabre, making it THEIR distinctive weapon.
    but however, if your player really really wants to use the double-bladed one i say let him. i mean it is a game after all designed for people to have fun. I hate snobbish @ss's who ruin the fun for everyone just because of their 2 serious attitudes. If anyone is like that dont play with him/her and go play with another DM/player...after taking him/her out back and teaching them a bit about real life.
  16. Dev_Jannz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    I think that ultimately this is going to be left up to the GM and the player. A double-bladed lightsaber is not good or evil, it is the intent with which one uses it that is good or evil.

    If a jedi is using one because it allows him to defend better then that is good. If he is using because it allows him to kill more people faster...that is bad.
  17. Fingorfin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Read the conversation. The sole pupose of the double bladed lightsaber is to kill more efficiently. No Jedi would use this weapon. No GM should allow it.
  18. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Yep, even the sourcebooks confirm this point of view...
  19. Jedi_Master_Lennier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2001
    Yeah I agree about the failed dice roll thing. My GM killed my character by dishing out 84 points of damage for a failed Reflex save by one point, even if the save had succeeded my character would nearly be down anyway. A new character is made one level lower than before.
  20. Jedi_Master_Lennier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2001
    I would allow a Jedi to wield a double-bladed sabre, unless I felt it unbalanced the game or made them way more powerful than other characters in the game.
    It is just a game and whatever it takes for the majority (hopefully everyone) to have a good time should be allowed.

    IMO the Code forbids it is a bit lame, the Jedi should just be more careful how and where it is used. ;) Since it does seem to increase the aggressive nature of the weapon.

    Can a Jedi use a blaster or even two, or is this DSP territory? Since the aggressive nature is clearly obvious. [face_mischief]
  21. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    A Jedi can use a blaster, Luke has many times, though there is no need for them to use two blasters at once.
  22. Alion_Sangre Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2001
    star 4
    "The Jedi Council disapproves of such experiments, though, noting that the only reason to carry such a weapon is to kill more effectively."

    Well, gee, if we want to kill INEFFECTIVELY, we can fight with sticks off the nearest tree. Plus, I can think of a slight loophole. Jedi fight with two sabers sometimes, right? Stick electromagnetic clamps on the pommels so you can combine them. It's not the weapon that is evil, it's how it's used.

    Plus the Jedi council was a bit anal-retentive, IMHO.
  23. Alion_Sangre Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2001
    star 4
    As a compromise to keep everybody and his brother in the Jedi Order from packing such a weapon, make the option available only to extremely skilled or powerful Jedi Knights/Masters who might be expected to use such a weapon wisely and effectively - don't let a padawan, apprentice, or Force adept make one right off the bat.
  24. Yodimus_Prime Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 2
    Well, the way i figure, if you need a to increase the strength of your weapon, you should really ask yourself what you're doing wrong. the strength of good fighter, jedi or otherwise, is shown by the figher's skill not the weapon.

    Which kind of makes the doublebladed lightsaber paradoxical. That a figher needs skill to create and wield one, but only a weaker fighter would really need one.

    As for my stance, i really don't care. the double lightsaber has been overused since Maul. There are many more interesting designs that the truly creative could come up with.
  25. Fingorfin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    The Jedi Council does have some rules that seem to be overly restrictive, but that may be part of the way that they keep Jedi from going rouge. If a Jedi is not willing to resist the urge to wield a double bladed lightsaber, then he may also be willing to ignore other more important restrictions if he feels that it would help his situation.
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