Speculation Likelihood-of-Williams-Scoring Debate

I 100% agree that although different in style Goldsmith was the qualitative equal to Williams. I loved most of his scores all the way back to his 1969 planet of the apes score. One of my favorites. If he was alive today I'd be pleading for him to be 2nd in line to Williams on SW7. He was actually older than Williams though, so if he was in the equation we'd be having the same discussions about him. In the generation prior to Williams and Goldsmith there were actually a bunch of composers who wrote equally well in that style as well. Listen to Erich Korngold, Max Steiner, Bernard Hermann, the list goes on and on. There were tons of great orchestral composers who influenced Williams and Goldsmith. Korngolds Sea Hawk score and Robin Hood were especially influential on Williams. Williams actually helped bring classic orchestral scoring back into style early into his career when scores were leaning more towards modern music. On the goldsmith note: check out this long interview about his career on youtube from 10 years ago. It's really interesting and at some points in the interviews he talks about the early days of his and William's careers. It's a four part interview. .

 

I take back what I said about John Ottman. I forgot he did the soundtrack to How to Train Your Dragon which sounded very Williams while also sounding original and fantastic.

 

I'm sorry, but even though you're agrreeing with me on the basics of my point, the idea of Goldsmith being a choice (were he alive) to score the ST in lieu of Williams has me aghast, precisely because his voice was so distinct from Williams. It would be a disservice to both composers to have that happen: Goldsmith doing Williams wouldn't sound either like Goldsmith or Williams. What we're asking of a composer stepping in for Williams is a big deal to ask of any artist: we're asking someone to effectively bury his own voice and do an impression of someone else's voice, or paint in someone else's style. This is what I expect. I certainly wouldn't be coming into the theater to hear the style of whoever they end up picking; I'm going to hear someone make music that is a perfect match for Williams' style, and to hell with the composer's own style. He's not there to be himself; he's there to channel someone else.

And let's be honest: that's hard to do even when they're trying. How many composers have actually pulled it off? You mention Goldsmith; we all love his Rambo scores, and yet all the person who took over for him for Rambo 4 did was take his main theme and then use nothing else but his own, motif-less dreck that should never be considered in the same league as Goldsmith's work. Williams' score for the first Superman film could rightly be considered some of his finest work; he personally recommended Ken Thorne to compose for the sequels, and I think that at least there, Thorne really channeled Williams; he also recommended John Ottman for Superman Returns, and the result was hideous. It's a tough thing for an artist to essentially be another artist; but that's what I expect for this film, at this time. Nothing less.

 

If we can't have Williams, I vote Alexander Desplat. Of all the composers to try and channel his work after he left the Harry Potter franchise, Desplat was the only one I thought who not only channeled what Williams had done, but added to the score in a very fitting manner.

 

John Williams will be doing the music for the ST. He has probably started recording already. They'll probably have him do a multitude of different scores over the next little while, and ahead of time too. I'd imagine Williams will also advise Disney on who he thinks would be good to take over for him as well if necessary.

 

What I'm getting at is that we need a composer on that level orchestrally. There aren't very many nowadays, and many of the usual names that are thrown out there aren't up to par in my opinion. I'm simply saying that if Goldsmith were alive he'd be the most able composer to score next to Williams. I realize that he might not sound exactly like williams, but he'd write incredible themes and his music would be deep. If they aren't going exactly for the Williams sound they should pick someone who has at least a very distinct voice with the orchestra. I would also prefer someone trying to do the Williams thing vs getting a new sound, but I'd hope they'd be very picky on who that would be. As we both mentioned above there is much more to his music than just the themes. There is a depth of musical knowledge and experience that can't be underestimated. Williams is the only real one to do the Williams sound for real. I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. I was just saying that were he alive Goldsmith would have been a worthy successor. I'm not a fan of Ottman either and I'm not familiar with Ken thorne. I'll have to check his music out.

 

Look, I'm certainly not going to question your taste in music, particularly when I'm the one who purchased Goldsmith's complete score for Star Trek: The Motion Picture within five seconds (not joking, not exaggerating) of it becoming available online last year. We both agree that Goldsmith was a master of his craft, no question. He did indeed write incredible themes and his music (particularly for ST:TMP, in my own humble opinion, but by no means solely there) had tremendous depth. My issue with the idea is as simple as, one, I don't believe that they should even consider not going exactly for the Williams sound and that it should not be so much as an option for LFL, and two, I do believe that if they did, it would be wrong to have used Goldsmith, simply because Goldsmith just shouldn't have been made to sound like someone else; as I mentioned with my Rambo 4 example, it's more important that other composers sound like him, not the reverse. It's because Goldsmith is as great as Williams that I wouldn't want either to compromise their voices to sound like the other. It's because Goldsmith is on that level orchestrally that even to have him try would have been a crime.

The problem is, where the music - the "oxygen of Star Wars" - is concerned, a very distinctive and separate voice is a non-starter for me. I won't even listen past that if someone suggests it. Like you, I don't want a voice distinctive from Williams'. They've selected a director based on the notion that his voice would match the style set by Lucas; Abrams had done mock-Spielberg, they agreed, so he should probably be able to do a mock-Lucas or a mock-Kershner as well. By the same token, I want a composer that can do a mock-Williams, not a composer with a distinct approach. When it comes to getting something this important right, Harry Plinkett said it best: "I don't like things that are different."

 

I can see John doing it . Like someone said he could write the score and have someone else record it under his supervision. The guy is not dead so far... And people are forgetting that this is usually the last piece done ( most of the time ) in the post production. Its not like JJ would ask him to sit thru everything so it would not be a burden for him. If memory serves me correct he recorded the original movies music in a couple of week a few months before the movie came out and the good cuts of the film were probably not available until January and later. so i think on the first film he only had to work 3 months or more or less. So its not like they would ask him the end of the world.

If for whatever reason the main theme would be modified i could see Theaters getting burned down. One thing JJ cannot touch is the opening theme and crawl. If he changes that i think people would just go nuts and Lynch him.

 

I have a feeling John Williams will be doing it-it just doesn't seem right that he wouldn't. I mean, I can't see him refusing!

If he doesn't, I suppose I could live with it. As long as two things happen:

1. The opening fanfare/theme MUST be there-and not an adaptation, the same as all the episodes. It's such an iconic element: I would expect they'll be smart enough to know THAT is what will get cheers and excitement from the audience, NOT something else.
2. The main themes have to be there-Luke theme, Leias theme, Jedi theme, etc.

As for the rest, I'm sure I'd enjoy whatever they come up with.




...But I'd prefer John Williams...

 

Since he's still composing for Spielberg, no reason why he shouldn't do a couple of new character motifs for Episode 7. The guy may be 80, but he's never backed out of Star Wars before. That's all he really needs to do. They can just splice in variations on the other themes to fill in the blank spots.

PS: I don't think he'll ever completely retire. The guy will die with a baton or a pencil in his hand...

 

@-fluegermeister-
OK, so we can both agree that Williams should be asked first. Where the real debate begins is who would be able to create the Williams sound best in case he isn't hired. I'd like to start an open discussion about that. We all know that the hollywood politics indicate Giacchino would be the guy, but if that weren't a factor and anybody could be chosen, who is most able to ceate that sound? I'd like to hear opinions from various people backed up with musical examples. It's hard to discuss someone's opinion, but with examples presented that might or might not sound Star wars-ish we can all at least listen and chime in. Pretty much everything is either on YouTube or soundcloud so let's provide links!

Here's an example from a vastly underrated score. Not something I prepared, just a quick YouTube search for a composer I think is awesome. Not exactly star wars, but if you listen through the light hearted nature of the cue you will hear this guy is unbelievable. Great orchestrations, lots of counterpoint, unpredictable harmonies, etc... I think he is possibly the most JW equal composer alive (although I've heard rumors of his retirement already at age 68.) If Williams declined the job I'd be thrilled if Bruce Broughton was offered the job. He definitely has the chops to go for the star wars style.
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I don't know if I'm prepared to just say it's gotta be Williams or nothing, because I know realities and I know what his age and health would be once this ST really gets up to top speed. But at the same time, I just can't dip my toe into trying to guess the future like that. I honestly thought that Joe Johnston might have a shot at the director's chair; I got J.J. Abrams instead. I'm clearly not a prophet, and I know that to engage in "what ifs" is a pointless waste of time. It unfortunately doesn't help me that you managed to include a rather nice piece of music there, because saying something sounds like it has a piece of Williams-style scoring here, a little Williams-style flourish there, isn't the same thing as hearing these people actually deliberately attempt to do something fully in Williams' style; I honestly believe there's a difference once Star Wars leitmotifs are included in a sample, and any non-Williams composer would surely have to be judged on their ability to handle the Williams motifs fluently and in his voice. I think that, for the audition process, each candidate needs to compose a piece in Williams' style and incorporating Williams' leitmotifs; that audition tape would then have to be vetted by Abrams, Kennedy, AND Lucas (if he wants in on that decision, that is, and he damn well ought to).

I should probably also point out that even though John Williams did in fact do music for the original Lost in Space television series, that was an entirely different composer than the one with the same mind, body and name who became the composer of some of the greatest film scores of all time. That man doing work on that series still had much growth and seasoning to come. Back then he was still doing jazz primarily; he hadn't become the man we're trying so hard to find someone to emulate. He was still Johnny Williams; he wasn't JOHN WILLIAMS yet. Plus, as you point out, the very style of these two properties isn't at all the same; there's no grand opera in Lost in Space; by contrast, there's nothing in Star Wars if not grand and operatic cues. So if I hear some Lost in Space cues in this music, I'm not sure that would count as a sample of my hypothetical audition tape concept.

 

I certainly understand that. Like I said before, I only want JW to score the new trilogy! I am just saying that if he doesn't we should get someone who is musically in the same ballpark. I get the other points you are making about the fact that a piece like I presented isn't a good demo for someone to write in the operatic leitmotif style, but I am sure when someone writes on the level of a Bruce Broughton he could fit into that mold.
I actually wasn't even thinking about this being a lost in space cue and providing any indication of a transition from JW. That was so early in his career that I wouldn't try to make that connection. It was actually just a coincidence as I looked on youtube for Bruce Broughton. I like your idea of having various candidates compose in the williams style (hopefully to picture too) as an audition and then having Lucas,Kennedy,Williams and Abrams pick the person based on that. There is no way it'll happen that way, but in a perfect world that would be a great solution!

I still welcome other peoples examples of Williams style writing. Again, I'm not saying I want anyone other than Williams to do it, but I am curious who people think would be a good successor. Hopefully it won't happen until after this trilogy! Provide Links to cues.

 

I am proud to say that the biggest folder on my external hard drives is that which contains movie soundtracks/scores. Do I have too much, probably, but I most definitely want more. Would love to have John Williams score the ST movies, but if it doesn't I hope that whoever does pays homage to Williams and his style.

 

My opinion is Music is Music. There are bad composers and good composers. I would love to have Williams. John Williams basically wrote the soundtrack for my entire life! If not, though, the scope of this type of film set an easy atmosphere to dominate musically. Whoever ends up composing the score most of us will be happy. I am a musician of 20 years, playing guitar and piano. btw, so when I say music is music I mean the underlying frame is similar. Just because you can write notes on paper doesn't mean you can create with them.

I just took both positions in one post. Like a politician!

Change is good, people. Without change you can never maximize the benefits of experience.

 

Super 8 has changed my mind in every way. Before i saw it i thought, ok Abrams could possibly work. But now, im sure he is just the right and perfect Guy. Thats the same for Giacchino.

When these two did the same for Star Wars what they have done to Super 8... plus Arndts sensibility... Shivers!

John Williams: Yes!
Michael Giacchino: Yes too!

 

Found this on a John Williams fan website....

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http://www.jwfan.com/?p=5407
So if this is true it sounds very much to me like John Williams is happy to compose more Star Wars music! This is amazing

 

Awesome!

 

It would be great to get Williams on board. (Or even a Michael Giacchino-John Williams collaboration? )

 

I hope he does it. It wouldn't be right without him

 

Well I think that hearing this from John Williams himself is a very good sign. I mean, he brought the subject up and said he'd love to continue working on Star Wars, so it seems to me at least that he's willing and ready to score the movies! Star Wars looms VEEEERY LARGE in his legacy, so its completely understandable that he wants to be part of its future.

 

Great news!

On a side note - it was John Powell, not John Ottman who scored How to Train your Dragon (which is still a fantastic score).

 

Glad to hear Williams is probably coming back!

 

WHEE! Great News! Hope this means he's doing it.