Limits, Anakin/Vader's and Force users in general, what are they?

Originally posted in the demon ani/saint obi thread moved to its own thread because it really is off topic for there.

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Dianethx said this interesting thing about something I posted and it got me thinking. What she said was That Alen would try to hide his feelings from Vader, who could probably read his mind with little effort, was very brave.

This got me started wondering about Vader and his limits again. Which I have been doing off and on now for a while as I struggle to reconcile things. Leia has this marvelous line to Tarkin, "I should have known I'd find you holding Vader's leash," or whatever it was exactly, which I am finding really fascinating lately. It seems to me that Anakin is becoming too powerful in our view or perhaps just the ones I have been seeing. How can Tarkin actually control Vader if Vader can read minds along with all the other stuff he can do? The only things we actually see Vader do is telekenesis and read the mind of his own child right? Or am I missing something? Well, and physical strength stuff but Vin Diesel or the Rock can probably do that choke the guy by lifting him up thing. Though that's probably easier with a metal arm too.

So either by ANH Vader is truly evil enough to allow an entire planet to be wiped out in cold blood which is pretty seriously evil no matter how dangerous you might think rebels are or how thick on the ground you think they are there. Or he actually is, or believes himself to be, powerless to stop it. Why would he be powerless to stop it? (Bomb in the suit - or in him ala the slave tag?) that Tarkin has a key for so he can set it off? A hostage somewhere (is that what happens to Padme? - I have a little bit of a fic about that actually) or what? I've even started wondering if Vader's hand that comes down on Leia's shoulder when the planet is destroyed is more in the way of support or shared shock than to force her to watch it. Anyone have an opinion on how come Vader is controllable by anyone other than himself and perhaps the Emperor? Or what his limits really are?

And another question in relation to my itty bitty work directly relates to Diane's comment. I'm not sure Alen risks having his mind read. Which is not to say I don't think Alen is brave, I do (I invented him after all - actually I am quite fond of him) but what I think he risks is a more standard and possibly ickier interrogation. How much can Vader actually read another's thoughts? I don't know that he could read thoughts that easily. Luke's would be a special case. He's Vader's son and let's face it he's not exactly discreet is he? A blind man would know what he felt most of the time.

I pretty much was going (and plan to continue unless I am convinced otherwise) with the idea that there would be a range in ease of reading people. Some people would practically broadcast and a Jedi or Sith would have to cover their metaphorical ears to not hear it. Some people would be readable if the Jedi's or Sith's attention were drawn to them. And there would be some people who would have to be actively probed for a Jedi or Sith to read their thoughts. And maybe even some who couldn't be read at all. Just like success with mind tricks. And all of that (both mind reading and mind tricking wise) is aside from any force abilities they might have. So that is why Padme can fool Jedi (although I'm not convinced Qui-Gon was fooled - some of his comments to the handmaiden Padme were pointed enough, and only just enough, which was a nice touch, to raise doubts that he was fooled) about who is the queen and who isn't. And so on.

And, if he could read minds just by trying would he either have to give too much of himself away in the reading because it was a two way street or would he have compunctions about reading another's mind (where he doesn't have about just torturing or killing them? a very interesting thought and might be fun to play with sometime) or what? Otherwise why wouldn't it be an easy matter to find out everything Han knew? Or for that matter everything anyone knew. Wanna find the

 

Here was my original reply....

KD - there's been a lot of debate about reading other people's minds in the SW universe. Some say that it isn't possible and no one can do it. However, the Luke/Leia mind connection is quite blatently onscreen as is the Luke/Vader mind speech. Whether that is inherent between Force-sensitives or not will depend upon your point of view. I made that comment (lovely fic, BTW) because, in the radio series of SW, Vader said that Leia's mind was strong and not easy to break (I'm paraphrasing here). That indicates that he had used mind control/reading of thoughts earlier on other beings before he got to Leia.
Quote from Annotated Screenplays "Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable." Whether the drugs lowered her resistance so that she could be more easily read remains debatable....

As for Qui-Gon knowing about Padme/Amidala in TPM, Lucas states very clearly in the audio commentary that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan knew that Padme was the Queen the whole time. Just a bit of info.
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Further comments...
I always thought that the black round thing was just the repository for the drugs needed to inject into Leia, not the mind probe itself. Again from the radio series, Vader pretty much tortures Leia by planting ideas in her head but he says them in the play. I wasn't sure if he was putting them into her mind as well (although it could be - it was pretty hard to listen to!! and I tend to skip over that part because she was screaming. Icky). Could be either way but if he was using a mind trick, it would be pretty easy to get her to believe it, especially under drugs....

 

To clarify Dianethx's added comment. I had replied in the other thread that I was amused to realize just how differently people can interpret the same line. I said:

"Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable." I swear that right up until I read Diane's reply I thought he meant the floaty black sphere thingy or some other technological gadget. It never occured to me it referred to his attempting to read her mind.

Thinking about it now I wonder if I would have leapt to the other conclusion over a smaller chasm if he had said "my mind probe" instead of "the". I haven't heard the Star Wars radio plays and I haven't read the novelization in a long time so I don't know what they say, if anything. I also haven't gotten the OT out and rewatched them yet either which I am probably past due for. I guess all along I just assumed something out of say The Prisoner, or Mission Impossible, or that bit in ST:TNG where the Cardassian is trying to get Picard to tell him stuff by messing with his mind using drugs and interrogation techniques involving pressures on the mind but not from trying to read his mind (that was a scary episode by the way - proving that the franchise can occasionally have both good acting and good writing) or anything like that out of mainstream fiction/film/television.

And if they can move objects with their minds (although I think only relatively simple things are shown) does that mean they can pick locks using Jedi abilities? WIf so what was that thing that Obi-Wan was floating in/bound by when talking to Dooku? Why couldn't he and Anakin just unhook their chains from the hooks on the pillars in the Arena scene using telekinesis which doesn't seem to me to be beyond their demonstrated abilities?

To expand the topic beyond mental abilities - the saber battle between Anakin, Obi-Wan and Dooku also brought up the limits of Jedi thing for me. Now, I realize that taking a blade through the leg and another through the arm is major trauma for a body, and that he had been fighting a lot already that day, and that if it happened to me I would be a whimpering mass of protoplasm, but it still felt like Obi-Wan didn't do quite enough in that scene. I think all I really needed was for him to move around a bit more to check on his padawan. Or call a weapon to him to try one last time or use telekenesis to try to brain Dooku with a block of wood or something. Not just lie there like a piece of meat (an attractive one, but still) since he wasn't actually unconcious and he is supposed to be a "best of" Jedi. Especially considering how that scene ended.

Now, part of that feeling is probably due to the massively unrealistic way action heros are depicted in most films lately where they take three shots to the torso but keep on going (and no I'm not making fun of Boromir - he was a mythic hero type and is supposed to be able to take three arrows before he dies- actually I thought that was a beautiful scene). Then somewhat recently, I forget now what I was watching but the hero took a punch to the gut and doubled over and was pretty much out of the fight for a while after that. That was very realistic (I can say that having taken a running golden retriever in the gut) but it didn't fit with the majority of the genre. Just as it seems odd for Obi-Wan to just poop out like that. Particularly as once Yoda had defeated Dooku and Padme appeared, suddenly both Obi-Wan and Anakin are able to stand. What's up with that? "Now that the fight is over and I'm not likely to get killed I can stand up on this leg that had a saber run through it."

So what then have people decided about the Jedi capacity for damage? Is it greater than that of an average man because the Jedi can draw on the Force to assist him/her in ignoring the pain or stopping the blood loss or whatever? Or is his or her resistance to injury and pain the same as for any other member of his/her species/race/what-do-we-call-that? If you sucker punch a Jedi can you knock him out just like a nor

 

Hmmm... I must meditate awhile on this and get back....

 

I've even started wondering if Vader's hand that comes down on Leia's shoulder when the planet is destroyed is more in the way of support or shared shock than to force her to watch it. Anyone have an opinion on how come Vader is controllable by anyone other than himself and perhaps the Emperor?


I definitely never saw it as him forcing her to watch it. It looks more like support or shared shock, or keeping Leia from openly doing something that looked like an attack on Tarkin which would have garnered her a blast hole from the stormtroopers right then and there.

On Vader's mind probing ability, I think its one of those things that he uses just like the Jedi. When it comes to Leia (hindsight being twenty-twenty), he seems to have a connection with her as he does with Luke. The connection to Luke is open and he knows about it. He figures that out pretty easily. If he never knew about Leia, it has to drive him crazy that he gets these sparks or whatever you would describe them as, when around her. Going back and watching the OT, there are times when he seems to "save" (for lack of a better word) her as he does Luke. (stopping her execution on the DS when Tarkin called for it - does "she may still be of some use to us..." sound familiar? ), the little weird episode on Bespin when he literally slaps Boba Fett's shot out of range...etc.

So I think when it comes to reading the minds that we've seen (Luke and Leia) it may actually be more a family bond, dysfunctional as it may be.

 

OK, clearly it is time for me to rewatch the OT. I'll have to get them out this weekend. I always thought the "she may yet be of some use to us" was part power play (he wants to decide what happens to her because she is his catch) and part waste not want not (you never know when it might be handy to have a captured enemy to use as a bargaining chip).

I also always thought that he never knew he had children until he ran into Luke and realized what it was that was so familar about him.

KD

 

And what is the leash that Tarkin holds? How is it that a command from him is enough to make Vader back down? Would Vader have used the Death Star to destroy Alderaan? Or was he as shocked as Leia that Tarkin used it?

I believe the leash is the Emperor. I don?t have anything to back this up, and I don?t know what the EU or the Official Site may say about it, but I have come to think that the Emperor is fully utilizing military strength to maintain order. (The Death Star?s capability, and the fact that it became operational in ANH, seems to be what allowed Palpatine to feel that he could disband the Senate after all). So, Tarkin wields great power given to him by the Emperor. I think Vader falls outside of the government & military, but since the Emperor is utilizing the military so strongly to enforce his broad area of control, he has likely instructed Vader to heed Tarkin?s orders. What is Vader?s role then? As Vader?s Master (and friend ? if Palpatine strives to continue that kind of relationship after AOTC), Vader would act as a means of providing Palpatine updates on the progress of ventures such as the Death Star without holding anything back ? he?s a trustworthy source. Vader would also act as his right-hand man should anything displease him.

That?s my take on it anyway.

As for why Vader rested his hand on Leia?s shoulder? Boy, I have to watch the scene again. I recall Vader holding her back when she said ?No?. I assumed it was just to keep her reigned in, but I could be wrong. We know after ROTJ that there was indeed some good in Vader, but at the time of ANH (prior to seeing more of the saga played out) I would have assumed that he was pretty much unaffected by it.

 

OK, clearly it is time for me to rewatch the OT. I'll have to get them out this weekend. I always thought the "she may yet be of some use to us" was part power play (he wants to decide what happens to her because she is his catch) and part waste not want not (you never know when it might be handy to have a captured enemy to use as a bargaining chip).

Oh, he could of been using it as a power play. I'm not saying Vader knew about Leia, he didn't. I'm saying the "force" works in mysterious ways... (especially when viewing these movies with the knowledge we have now). Why did he decide to take her with him from Bespin after stating to Lando earlier that she could stay? This happens after the scene at the carbon freezing chamber, when he stops Boba from shooting and shares a look with Leia. A look that was supposed to mean something, it lasted too long not too. It could have just been fear as I said earlier, but now you can piece together some of this stuff together to make a case that says that Vader felt something around Leia, he just didn't know what. It was certainly enough to make him notice her. It probably was just a coincindence that he kept saving his children, but again, the "force" works in mysterious ways. Check it out this weekend!