Saga Lines from the Saga that mirror each other

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthWolvo23, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    heh, fair enough.

    I see much symbolism in comparing Qui-Gon as a mentor inversely to Sidious, then back 'up' with Obi-Wan in ANH. Qui-Gon is clearly the Master Anakin should have had. Sidious fills a void in ROTS, where Obi-Wan and Yoda succesfully train Luke in the OT. If I'm making sense. Qui-Gon, ROTS Sidious, and ANH Obi-Wan have plenty of mirrors, which I'm pretty sure was intentional.

    There is so much weight to this line after all the analysing we have done. I can't recall many off the top of my head, but one example is three main apprentices of Jedi and Sith (Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luke. Maul, Dooku, Vader). Also, Obi-Wan killing the apprentice Maul arguably leads to his Jedi knighting, Anakin helping kill Mace leads to his Sith knighting. And then there's "Be careful of your friend, Palpatine" stated by Obi-Wan, "Be careful of the Jedi, Anakin" by Palpatine. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Agreed, I think Mace does mean well. I feel the deleted AOTC scene with Mace and Obi-Wan discussing Anakin should have been included in the film. Mace is warmer, and seems far more confident in Anakin than in any scene shown onscreen. Perhaps this was intended, but I doubt it. His main mistake in Revenge IMO is not taking Anakin with him. You can see when Anakin arrives at the office Mace sees him as an ally. He doesn't see it coming. But I'm going off-topic.
  2. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    AOTC-
    MACE: We will not be hostages to be bartered Dooku.

    ROTJ-
    HAN: Threepio, you tell that slimy piece of... worm-ridden filth he'll get no such pleasure from us. Right?
  3. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    This is reocurring...

    AOTC-
    ANAKIN: (to pilot) Lower the ship!
    OBI-WAN: Anakin, I can't take DOOKU alone. I need you. If we catch him we can end this war right now. We have a job
    to do!

    ROTS-
    ANAKIN: I'm gonna go help them out.
    OBI-WAN: No, no! They are doing their job and we can do ours.

    Can't think of any others but they're there.
  4. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Well, Obi-Wan and Yoda aren't all that successful with Luke. If you notice, it's actually Sidious that completes Luke's training, by showing him the folly of burying his feelings (more contradictory advice from Obi-Wan; more on that in a moment), and helping to smash the priestly hubris Luke has shrouded his earlier, clumsier persona in. The Emperor helps Luke to grow in his own incisive -- albeit, decadent -- way. It echoes a line of Padme's in Episode II: "All mentors have a way of seeing more of our faults than we'd like. It's the only way we grow."

    Anyway, how's this for a big, fat contradiction?

    ANH

    OBI-WAN (to LUKE): Stretch out with your feelings!

    ROTJ

    OBI-WAN (to LUKE): Bury your feelings deep down, Luke.

    Oh, for sure. In many ways, the mutual animosity between the Jedi and the Sith, despite the fact that they practice and believe in many of the same things, and even behave the same, reflects real-world divides, especially religious divides, like, for example, the generational hatred between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, and Sunnis and Shiites in the Middle East. Everyone is being mocked in Star Wars, through Star Wars. "There is no escape!" (Another rhyme: "You cannot escape your destiny!" From Vader, Obi-Wan's former pupil, then from Obi-Wan himself).

    Oh, I'd say Mace is definitely warmer to Anakin in AOTC. It's evident -- to me -- in the scene between Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan when Yoda talks about Jedi arrogance being endemic. They're more or less telling Obi-Wan to go easy on Anakin, or stop fretting he has done a bad job. And it's Mace who says, "The boy has exceptional skills". I dunno how to read that. Maybe he really just admires Anakin's skills, or maybe he's kind of saying, "He has exceptional skills, so we should regard him exceptionally". In that moment, it's almost as if the Jedi are on the cusp of accommodating Anakin for who he is, but they snap back to a more cynical view in ROTS after he lets them down by failing to stop Dooku the first time around? It's a bit of a muddle, but maybe Lucas wants it that way. Now I'm (kinda) mirroring YOUR "lines" ("Perhaps this was intended (by Lucas), but I doubt it")! :D
  5. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Good points. It can also be noted Luke becomes his own Master here. But I like the irony you have presented, shown when The Emperor states he will "complete (your) training".

    Lol. I've noticed that about Obi-Wan's ANH comment too. It seems more in line with Qui-Gon's and Sidious' philosophies "Feel, don't think" and "In time you will learn to trust your feelings".


    True. Star Wars is very broad, the scope of the grey area added by the prequels is quite underrated I think.

    Possibly. Another positive moment in Mace's deleted scene is the comment "We have to trust that he will choose the right path". Echoing Shmi and Leia... interesting.
  6. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Alright, for this next post, I'm gonna try and keep it (relatively) light:

    Nice catch! This really illustrates -- among other things -- the difference in vernacular between the two trilogies. Mace, all stoic and formal, even on the verge of death, and Han, his usual, loose self (Mace is also his usual self, of course).

    AOTC

    OBI-WAN (to ANAKIN): Good job!

    * * *

    Obi-Wan seems to like that word.

    It's fitting that he does.

    Obi-Wan is more about duty before desire, whereas, for Anakin, it's more the reverse. There's something droll about a Jedi, of all people, using the word "job". The Jedi don't have a "job". They have a vocation. Life-long. The word "job" connotes something of the mundanity of every-day life, rather than the fantastical escapism (rooted in universal truth) that Star Wars embodies. A bit fourth-wall-breaking, but, at the same time, so Obi-Wan, I think.

    Along similar lines, Lucas originally had one droid saying to another at the start of TPM, inside one of the blockading ships, "I'm not made to think", in dry emulation of the classic work phrase, "I'm not paid to think". So, Star Wars is commenting on and accounting for the hum-drum and the common-place; though not every last word, thought or deed of Lucas', or anyone else, for that matter, makes it into the movies, to say the least.

    * * *

    Okay, so here's another two-fer. It's not inter- or even intra-trilogy; it's TPM-only. But hey, this is the deepest/most eloquent of the Star Wars movies, erm, right? [face_mischief]

    Gungans Greet Padme

    JAR JAR: Whosa are yousa?

    BOSS NASS: Whosa dis?

    One with gentility and inquisitiveness, one with suspicion and annoyance.

    But they're both asking the same basic question.

    WHAT IS THIS ENTITY?

    The character herself responds differently in each situation:

    To the former enquiry:

    "I'm Padme!"

    To the latter enquiry:

    "*I* am Queen Amidala!"*

    This is a clever link. It seems to slyly emphasize Padme's dual persona (in the second instance, she's actively contravening her bodyguard, on the spur of the moment), and I think it hints that Padme/Amidala is somewhat torn in two: only "half" a person. She even gives her heart away to Anakin, from a certain POV ("We are sure her heart goes with you"). In essence, she retains something of that elusiveness that was our first real glimpse of her, via Leia's recollections, in ROTJ. Also (yes, I used the word "elusiveness" on purpose), when Obi-Wan says he has a "bad feeling" at the start of TPM, he could be having an intimation of death, including the mysterious fading away of Padme in the third episode; which, in a way, you can say has already begun, or is about to begin ("He can see things before they happen") in TPM. Sort of adds to that melancholic quality of Padme, and TPM itself, I think.

    *The line also echoes one of the most famous in the saga (I guess this *is* an inter-trilogy post, after all!)...

    DARTH VADER: *I* am your father!

    In fact, "Amidala" even sounds a bit like "father".

    Hiding behind a mask/assumed persona for "protection", speaking in an electronically-modified voice, seeking directives from Palpatine/Sidious and acting on them, virtually Force-choking poor ol' Chancellor Valorum, whose leadership is suddenly no longer trusted and even raises ire... Padme/Amidala is Anakin/Darth Vader, alright.
  7. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Yes, I didn't quite notice it in these quotes, but that difference is totally there, and intended of course. Luke, Leia, and Han are a younger generation, and products of a different era (obviously).

    Well put. I'm not sure how Yoda's ESB lines "Adventure, heh. Excitement, heh. A Jedi craves not these things" fits in here. It's obviously quite the opposite for the audience :p. I agree with your sentiments though.

    I hadn't really thought of this. Obi-Wan's comment, that to me is a hint that Sidious is 'present' in spirit, could also be about the arc of the prequels, and Padme's fading presence. It is interesting watching Padme in ROTS after seeing her as a dual persona, the character feels more natural, and has a far less demanding presence.
    I wholeheartedly agree about The Phantom Menace's melancholic quality. It also feels very much like a beginning, and achieves something I don't think any of the other films do. Hard to put it in words, but there is a unique vibe, a strong display of mythic character archetypes. The characters and events are more symbolic, it really works as a stand-alone movie despite its strong connection to the later chapters.
  8. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    [face_talk_hand]I think you're reading too much into your own posts.:p
  9. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    TPM-
    YODA: Afraid to lose her, I think.
    ANAKIN: What's that got to do with anything?
    YODA: Everything!

    ROTS-
    OBI-WAN: Your friendship with Chancellor Palpatine seems to have paid off.
    ANAKIN: That has nothing to do with this.
    OBI-WAN: Anakin, the only reason the Council has approved your appointment is because the Chancellor trusts you.


    Two occurences of Anakin not seeing the big picture I suppose...
  10. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    TPM-
    OBI-WAN: Do not defy the Council Master, not again!
    QUI-GON: I will do what I must, Obi-Wan.

    ROTS-
    SIDIOUS: Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.

    ROTS-
    OBI-WAN: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
  11. HordaksPupil Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2011
    My favorite parallel is this:

    ROTS

    Darth Sidious- "It seems in your anger you killed her"


    ROTJ

    Darth Sidious- "I'm afraid that the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive"


    Both lines are Palpatine feigning concern to goad Anakin and Luke into despair and the dark side. when I first read this line in the ROTS comic adaption they really hit the nail on the head with it. The way drew Palpatine and the fact they added the phrase "I'm afraid she died" instantly brought me back to Return of the Jedi.

    Another awesome example is this:

    AOTC- "He would not have gone along with it if he had learned the truth as I have"- Count Dooku

    ESB- "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father"- Darth Vader

    The way Dooku plays on Obi-Wan's curiosity parallels Vader goading Luke. Also both revelations made by the Lords of the Sith stir up feelings of doubt and suspicion in the heroes.
  12. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    I love how Palpatine qualifies those statements with what could be considered weasel words: "It seems" and "Im afraid". As you say, its Palpatine "feigning concern"; that just makes it hilarious, somehow.

    Also:

    ROTS

    PALPATINE: I thought not. Its not a story the Jedi would tell you.

    * * *

    Secrets and lies. Things being concealed from Jedi protagonists. The aristocratic Sith freely throwing bones out. Hoping to ensnare. Their revelations shift things; but while the PT revelations only pull the characters into further darkness, Vaders revelation to Luke ultimately liberates him; just not as Vader intended.

    * * *

    Now, heres a quick one I just got from my last AOTC viewing:

    PADME: Artoo, what are you doing here?

    THREEPIO: Artoo, what are YOU doing here?

    Yes, its literally the exact same line, said in two different ways.

    I like how, the first time its said, its by a flesh-and-blood character, in the films quietest and most haunting scene ("quiet as a tomb" -- indeed, Anakin). The next time, its spoken with enhanced incredulity by a robot -- one droid to another -- lying in pieces, requiring assistance, in the middle of a furious battle, no less.

    Weirdly, Artoo seems to be imposing himself; at least, going by the reaction of the characters who pose the question. Padme and Threepio are both genuinely surprised by Artoos sudden presence. And, I have to say, Artoos presence does seem highly improbable; in the latter scenario, anyway. One moment, everyone is duking it out in the arena; the next, Artoo has suddenly shown up (I guess he hid or took an alternative route, or simply bid his time, after the factory sequence). Pretty fun.

    I suppose, on some level, Lucas is actually critiquing his incessant love of the little droid, and sort of winking to the viewer that Artoo is kind of forced into the PT (much like Threepio). Yet, on another level, they absolutely have to be there, both of them. And had Artoo NOT been there, in those situations, the SW saga would have gone very differently, indeed.
  13. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Something I just noticed about Revenge of the Sith.


    PALPATINE: Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew... and his apprentice killed him in his sleep.

    ...

    OBI-WAN: I have trained you since you were a small boy, I have taught you everything I know, and you have become a far greater Jedi than I can ever hope to be.


    Kind of cool considering Vader also kills Obi-Wan, and Sidious.
    minnishe likes this.
  14. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

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    Jul 28, 2005
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  15. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Not sure this has any great meaning but am I right in thinking in release order Vaders first speech starts with "where are the plans" and his last starts with "where is Padme"?
  16. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    lol I hadn't thought of that. Also the fact that he is interrogating Leia is kind of ironic. A somewhat matching tone to the end of his last exchange with Padme. And both Padme and Leia are senators.


    I noticed a similarity between Naboo and Alderaan-

    Ep1-
    PANAKA: There are too few of us. We have no army.

    Ep4-
    LEIA: Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons. You can't possibly...
  17. EntechednReformatted Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2009
    star 2
    Apologies if these have been mentioned:

    TPM: "All slaves have a transmitter placed inside their bodies. Any attempt to escape ..." "And they blow you up! Boom!"
    ANH: "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." "Not after we demonstrate the power of this station."

    Also, note how the presence of machinery in his body makes it suicidal for Anakin to defy his master, both as a young boy and as a Sith Lord. I just noticed that one recently, and it really drove home how Anakin's quest for ultimate power only ends up returning him to the slavery he escaped as a boy. It's heartbreaking to see a freed slave put the chains back on himself.

    TPM: "The blockade is finished! We dare not go against the Jedi!"
    ANH: "No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now."
    (Although the Jedi were less genocidally psychotic about it, they too recognized the usefulness of fear to maintain their authority.)

    AOTC: "Well if droids could think, there would be none of us here."
    TESB: "I'm not really interested in your opinion, Threepio."

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  18. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Indeed. Although I would argue that he was never truely freed in the first place, having sworn his life to the Jedi. I agree with your sentiment, Anakin is born a slave and dies moments after finally being freed.

    Yes, this is an interesting reversal. There is other stuff supporting this, such as a door being cut at the start of each movie (Qui-Gon's saber outside Gunray's room in TPM, Vader and stormtroopers cutting their way into the Tantive IV in ANH).

    Heh. Interesting that R2 and 3PO indeed appear to think. There is also - "For a mechanic, you seem to do an excessive amount of thinking."
  19. EntechednReformatted Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2009
    star 2
    That's interesting. The Jedi certainly placed a lot of obligations and restrictions on Anakin's freedom. Still, the Jedi never threatened anything worse than expulsion. Another self-imposed prison. He so deeply resented the Jedi rules he could have simply walked away from, that he wound up in a forced servitude that he could only escape in death. In that way, you're absolutely right. Anakin never really grasped that he was free, or perhaps he never really understood what it meant to be free. He felt like a slave his whole life.
  20. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Whether taking children into their Jedi Order is immoral has been discussed before. I'm not sure where I stand. At the end of the day, as Anakin states, "The Jedi use their power for good".
    I like your reference to a self-imposed prison. That's a good analogy. Really, Anakin could have left any time he wanted to, but likely felt obligated to stay. Anakin seems determined to make a difference, and not to go down without a fight, and he only really gives up when he hears Padme is dead. It's quite ironic that turning to the darkside seems like a quick way out, a release, but leads him to exactly the opposite. And rather than resent Sidious, the man he initially planned to overthrow, he is more loyal than ever. He's lost his passion.
    One more thing about the slave issue, something I think I have posted before, is Shmi's comment when he is freed "Now you can make your dreams come true. You're free." I find this very ironic, because firstly, he will never be truely free until the end, but more to the point, his prophetic dreams coming true is exactly what he tries to avoid. Whether this is coincidence or intended irony I don't know.
  21. EntechednReformatted Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2009
    star 2
    Not a lot of great irony or deep insight in this one, but it amuses me.

    AOTC: Padme: "We're going to need some help!" Obi-Wan: "There isn't time! Anakin and I can handle this!"

    Straightforward enough: heroine remarks on the heroes' inadequacy, hero responds that there isn't enough time to do anything about it. But then there's this:

    TESB: Leia: "Captain, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited." Han: "Sorry sweetheart. Haven't got time for anything else."
  22. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    *Bump*

    This has been done partially...

    TPM (deleted scene)-
    EG-9: A Republic cruiser! That's trouble...don't you think?
    PK-4: I'm not made to think.

    AOTC-
    OBI-WAN: Well if droids could think there would be none of us here would there?

    AOTC-
    Clones can think creatively. You will find they are immensely superior to droids.

    AOTC-
    C-3P0: For a mechanic you seem to do an excessive amount of thinking.
  23. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    ROTS-
    ANAKIN: A partial message was intercepted in a diplomatic packet from the Chairman of Utapau.
    ANH-
    REBEL OFFICER: We intercepted no transmissions. Aaah....This is a consular ship. We're on a diplomatic mission.

    Thought that was kind of cool.

    Also one within Revenge of the Sith-

    OBI-WAN: He will not let me down. He never has.
    ...
    CODY: Hey, when have I ever let you down?

    The clones and Anakin of course both do let the Obi-Wan down when they 'turn' with Order 66.
  24. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Not a dialogue mirror, but does anyone see a link between Obi-Wan's TPM line "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic lifeform?" and how he perceives Anakin when Anakin is being immolated?

    ***

    Not sure if this has been done...

    TPM-
    C-3PO: I can assure you they will never get me onto one of those dreadful starships!
    AOTC-
    C-3PO: I'm not nervous, it's just that I've never flown before.
    ROTS-
    C-3PO: Do you know, I think I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business.

    ANH-
    C-3PO: Oh, my. I'd forgotten how much I hate space travel.

    Amusing considering his memory was erased.
  25. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    One more :p ...

    TPM-
    PALPATINE: Your boldness has saved our people. Together, we shall bring peace and prosperity to the Republic.

    AOTC-
    DOOKU: You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith!

    ROTS-
    PALPATINE: Only one has achieved the ability to cheat death. If we work together, I know we can discover the secret.
    ROTS-
    ANAKIN: I am more powerful than the Chancellor... I can overthrow him... and together you and I will rule the galaxy! Make things the way we want them to be!

    ESB-
    VADER: Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.

    ROTJ-
    THE EMPEROR: He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the force.