Lines / Sequences in the OT given new meaning after ROTS

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by crouchingjedi1, May 18, 2005.

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  1. princessleia911 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2005
    star 4
    Bail, I enjoy your thoughts on this. I see your point about Obi-Wan but I think their relationship was not strong enough. There were some deleted scenes that didn't make on to the DVD of AOTC where Anakin sees a master and apprentice who have a close relationship in the Jedi Temple. He wishes Obi-Wan was more like that but he wasn't. You may be right about Anakin not turning if Obi-Wan would have been there, my point was I think the Force had intented Qui-Gon to train Anakin, not Obi-Wan but the Sith interfered. I also think if Anakin would have went back to Padme, then he would not have turned because when he expresses feelings to Padme, she seems to make sense to him, like Obi-Wan would have. For example, the "I'm not the Jedi I should be" scene, Padme reminds Anakin that Obi-Wan and the Council do trust him. Palps was smart to keep Anakin isolated from those who really cared about him.
  2. Bail_Organa_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 2
    Leia,

    Another excellent post. It is interesting that you say the Force meant for Qui-Gon to train Anakin. I can see your point that in some ways this might have been a better fit for Anakin.

    There were some deleted scenes that didn't make on to the DVD of AOTC where Anakin sees a master and apprentice who have a close relationship in the Jedi Temple. He wishes Obi-Wan was more like that but he wasn't.

    I will have to go back and look at those deleted scenes. I have really been focusing on how I saw the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship in ROTS and the massive improvement in their relationship that I saw since AOTC. You are using a lot of examples from AOTC that definitely show some of the weaknesses in their relationship that are important to consider. Perhaps Obi-Wan did not want to have that extremely close friendship-type relationship with his apprentice b/c he did not want either of them to get too attached to eachother, especially with the death of Qui-Gon so fresh in his mind. Plus, we know how Anakin deals with people he gets very attached to.

    I do think it was the Emperor's plan to cut Anakin off from Obi-Wan so that Anakin could be turned and you are right that having Padme with him most likely would have prevented him from turning. Unfortunately, the last Jedi with Anakin before he turned was Mace Windu who had mis-handled Anakin from day 1, had not earned Anakin's trust or respect, and had no sway with him to keep him on the path toward the light.
  3. princessleia911 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2005
    star 4
    Bail, you must look at the script for AOTC because it is not on the DVD. It is the scene around the Library and talking about the Lost 12 which were the 12 Jedis who quit the order. Here's the link www.imdb.com and type in AOTC. I also question the development of Obi-Wan from AOTC to ROTS. I find Obi-Wan to be overly harsh to Anakin in AOTC and not very considerate of him. I compare it to the way a toddler does something to elicit a reaction from the parent albeit a negative one. Anakin loves Obi-Wan but does things to get a response and test the limits. Obi-Wan looks like the frustrated parent who overracts and comes across as harsh. Saying this, I believe Anakin deserves the can of whoop-a$$ Dooku unleashes on him at the end of AOTC. I find it ironic that Obi-Wan says Anakin is not ready but the Jedi Council says yes. It is reversed in ROTS. Obi-Wan says he is ready to be a master but the Council says no and push Anakin to do something against the Code. If they would have made him a master and on the Council, it would not have been such a slap in the face that Anakin could not ignore and play into Palp's hands.
  4. fettmaster39 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 3
    wait.... YOU'RE NOT THE REAL BAIL!!!!
    ........and YOU! YOU'RE NOT LEIA, ARE YOU?!!?!?!?

    NO, NO, NO...YOU'RE JUST PHONIES!!!!
  5. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
  6. princessleia911 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2005
    star 4
    That number of Lost 12 or 20 is irrevelant to my point.
  7. fettmaster39 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 3
    AND MY POINT IS,....YOU'RE NOT LEIA!!!!!!
  8. DarthDarkSide Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2003
    star 1
    Wow, 33 pages, can't view them all.


    ROTS "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you."

    ROTJ "Now his failure is complete."
  9. Bail_Organa_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 2
    Hey Leia,

    If they would have made him a master and on the Council, it would not have been such a slap in the face that Anakin could not ignore and play into Palp's hands.

    This has been one of my fundamental points all along. That Obi-Wan did not fail Anakin, the council, and specifically Mace Windu, did. Think about it. Anakin has been all over the galaxy winning every battle he is a part of, building a reputation as the most talented Jedi (and saving Obi-Wan's hide countless times and to be fair Obi-Wan has saved him also). Then Anakin defeats a Sith Lord rather easily (one far more powerful than even Darth Maul) and rescues the Supreme Chancellor. And now the Jedi Council says he can sit on the Council, but not be given the rank of Master?? What more does Anakin have to do?

    As far as the relationship arc of Obi-Wan and Anakin, I see both of them maturing quite a bit from AOTC to ROTS, spending a lot of time together in very difficult situations and growing even closer and their relationship improving dramatically. I wish GL had included the scene about the lost Jedi. In the script I just read on imsdb.com, I found a scene about the lost Jedi where Obi-Wan is talking to the keeper of the Jedi archives and they talk about Count Dooku while looking at a bronze statue of him. Is there another scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin are together in the Jedi Temple? I wish these scenes had been included in the DVD.
  10. princessleia911 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2005
    star 4
    Bail, I thought in one of the scenes there are stage directions that say something like Anakin sees a master and a padawan training together and the master helps the padawan up and talks to him, sharing a tender moment as Anakin is watching them and Anakin feels jealous and wishes he could have that kind of relationship with Obi-Wan. I will have to check it out.

    It seems like Anakin was a pawn between the Jedi Council and Palpatine. I don't know why they didn't start watching him sooner. They talk about the Dark Side surrounding him but they don't know he is a Sith lord? They were so arrogant :p They should have recognized this and not put Anakin with the Chancellor. But Obi-Wan tells Mace and Yoda that Anakin has never let him down before but I can't believe they insult Anakin and then ask him for help off the record because it wasn't in line with the Code. It's almost like because Palps appoints him, the Jedi are trying to send Palps a message but they don't think Anakin will be hurt in the process. I mean he does have feelings but I guess he is supposed to go along with the Council no matter what and not question which is difficult for most.
  11. Bail_Organa_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 2
    Leia,

    Let me know where that stage direction is in the script and the exact link you have to an AOTC script. Like I said before, I am reading one at IMSDB.com. I really enjoy all of those scenes at the Jedi Temple and all of the Jedi history.

    They were so arrogant They should have recognized this and not put Anakin with the Chancellor.

    Exactly. As soon as Anakin says the Chancellor would like him to lead the campaign on Utapau, Mace Windu, without even thinking about it, just quickly says that the Council will decide what to do, not Palpatine. Maybe Anakin should not have led the campaign, but at the very least he should have gone with Obi-Wan, but the Jedi Council's arrogance and disdain for Palpatine causes them to not even consider this. We also see Windu's arrogance when Anakin tells him that Palpatine is the Sith Lord they have been looking for. Windu does not even consult Yoda, or formulate a plan, he just rushes over to Palpatine and gets four Jedi killed. This arrogance blinded them to Palpatine and is a large factor in Anakin's turn. It is for this reason that I say that Obi-Wan did not fail Anakin, the Jedi Council did.
  12. LeiaSkywalker4 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2005
    star 4
    Well, I wanted to start a new post about what I am going to say, but I didn't know if it would of ended up here anyway. In A New Hope Han calls Obi-Wan a fool, then Obi-Wan replies "who's more foolish?The fool? Or the fool that follows the fool?" Now after watching ROTS could old Ben be talking about Palpatine/Darth Sidious and Anakin/Darth Vader and how Palpy influenced Anakin. Here you have the fool(Palpatine) and the fool that follows the fool(Anakin). Now don't ask me how Palpy could be a fool? Maybe because he thinks he can rule the galaxy forever or maybe he doesn't believe his apprentice will turn on him like the Sith are supposed to do. Well, we all know Anakin's story now don't we. He is the fool that follows the fool because he could be influenced so easily by Palpy.
  13. thechozn1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    i haven't read all these but this really hit me when I watched it the other day.

    "You have failed your heiness, I am a jedi, like my father before me." You know Sids had just been sitting there waiting on tempting Luke to kill his father as he had coerced Anakin to kill Dookoo
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Windu does not even consult Yoda, or formulate a plan, he just rushes over to Palpatine and gets four Jedi killed.

    Actually, there's a cut scene of Mace consulting Yoda.
  15. DARTHMAGI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 1
    I for one suggest Bail and Leia get a room and let the rest of us speak about this thread. I stil think the scene in ROTJ where Vader takes custody of Luke has become a completely different scene emotionally since ROTS was released. Vader seems more human and you can almost feel the emotion between father and son. There must have been an incredible amount of anguish,desparation, overall mixed feelings goping on in Vader as he saw how mature his son was and how powerful he was in the Force. Knowing that Lukee was initially trained by the same Jedi master that trained him and to see how much progress he made in such a short time...
  16. DARTHMAGI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 1
    Actually, there's a cut scene of Mace consulting Yoda.

    Thank you Mr. Lucas, it's so goood to finally speak to you. Will it be released on DVD? Come on!!!! Mace doesn't need Yoda to make every little decision. His suspicions have been realized and he is going to do what must be done in order to save the Republic.
  17. Ogmios22188 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2004
    star 4
    Most mods know what they're talking about. You should know your place.
  18. Bail_Organa_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 2
    Actually, there's a cut scene of Mace consulting Yoda.

    Thanks for the info, KnightWriter. That is interesting. I think it would have made sense to consult Yoda, but as ROTS stands right now, Windu just rushes off after Anakin tells him the terrible truth. I just checked the list of deleted scenes, and I hope most of them make their way onto the DVD. C'mon, for the last SW lets just throw them all in there and pull a LOTR and go 3 hours plus. What do you think about that KnightWriter?
  19. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    Obi-Wan doesn't fail Anakin in ROTS. He fails him in AOTC. That's where it all started IMO.
  20. Bail_Organa_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 2
    Obi-Wan doesn't fail Anakin in ROTS. He fails him in AOTC. That's where it all started IMO.

    JediLight,

    Can you elaborate on this and explain why you think this?
  21. brelth Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Here's a simple one that may be overlooked: how about reading the title of Episode VI differently? I'd say after seeing ROTS that the title "Return of the Jedi" now has two different meanings, say 75-80% of that being the idea of Luke ushering in a rebirth of the Jedi religion, but now also 20-25% of it refers to the re-emergence of THE Jedi, the chosen one who was to bring balance.

    To those of us who now (correctly) believe that Star Wars, as a whole, is Anakin's story, this is a neat new way to look at the title. That combined with the redone scene at the very end of Ep VI where we see young Anakin rather than the old guy with whom we really have no emotion invested in (plus Anakin never looked like that anyways, when you think about it)...it's really just an overwhelming sense of redemption that this kid, though misguided, ended up all right in the end.
  22. ForceFoxFive Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    ROTJ

    Luke 2 Vader: "There is good in you, I can feel it"
    Vader 2 Luke: "It is too late for me son"

    You realise the whole Vader on a leash to Sidious - Vader is so ashamed of himself, its very tragic stuff, very compelling. He knows he´s done some real dirty deeds when he shouldn´t have done (kill younglings, apparently kill his wife, etc), but that his guilt doesnt allow him to break free.

    "Don´t underestimate the power of the dark side" - its as if Vader is in denial, trying to justify his position, knowing all too well the dark side was never as strong as he was led to believe.
  23. Bail_Organa_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 2
    Excellent analysis in an area many would not have thought to look! I wonder if GL has commented on this other interpretation of the title? [face_thinking]
  24. Darth_Hirion Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Vader: "Give yourself to the darkside, it's the only way you can save your friends".
    Vader: "It is pointless to resist son".
    Vader: "You have controled your fear".
  25. yoda_rulz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2004
    star 1
    Luke on Dagobah: "There's something familar about this place." and:
    "It's like something out of a dream".
    He recognizes Yoda's prescense from when he was first born because Yoda was there w/Obi.
    (If somebody had already said that one I apoligize.)
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