Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Master_Keralys, Dec 4, 2008.

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  1. Jedi Trace SouthEast RSA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 1999
    star 6
    Back in the days when Dingo used his 'real' screen name. ;)

    You make a good point, though, and that is the one thing that TFN's Lit forum has going for it that no other site has: the sheer number and diversity of creators who sign up and participate in the forum. The publishers have their own boards and most of the creators have their own sites/boards/blogs and there are a lot of places to discuss the EU online, but TFN is the only one-stop-shop (for lack of a better term) where so many different fans and creators all mix together. It's special and it's worth fighting to preserve, IMHO.

    That being said, attitudes toward creators have definitely changed since the days when Kathy Tyers & the other NJO authors were around. I'm not saying it was all gushing, it wasn't (one of Mike Stackpole's last posts here was to apologize for Dark Tide), but as a whole creators were treated with more respect.

    If we're looking for ideas, this is something that can be improved. The creators don't have to come here and they certainly don't need us to tell them how to do their jobs - the people who sign their paychecks have got that covered. [face_peace] What we CAN offer is a community where they want to hang out and hear from/interact with fans.



    I'd have to disagree. In the 9 years I've been in and out of Lit, there has always been a forum bandwagon punching bag - the blows have just gotten bigger and louder. The difference with Ms. Traviss is that she did not go gently into that good night. Good for her, I say.


  2. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    OK, so it's something specific to certain releases -- not a perpetual problem, but something that can flare up at times. I can see where you're coming from. I agree -- when something contentious comes out, it can take over the boards for a week. But generally, a plethora of threads about the same thing will be shut down in fairly short order, so I'm still not sure what kind of domination you're talking about. Again, I'd like more specific examples than "yeah, it was there." I can't understand your complaint if I don't know what we're talking about. If I want to point out something far off to someone, I don't vaguely wave my hand across the horizon and say, "It's out there." I've got to know what you're talking about specifically before I can give you any kind of specific reply -- otherwise we're just going to sit here frustrating each other the whole time because we can't seem to get our points across.

    Please; I've never suggested your opinion doesn't count. I've said it's a different kind of opinion than that of someone who's posting in Lit every day and part of the community. And I mod Lit. I'm in there very nearly every day. I know my community. And I know you're someone who posts in Lit, but you're not in there every day, or anything close, and you're not someone I see socializing with other posters. Checking your post history in Lit, you're there in bits and spurts of a few days, followed by entire months off; when you do post, you're mostly restricted to posting in one or two threads, generally about new releases. Your most recent page of posts (15 posts) goes back to October; not counting a recent three-day spurt of posting in one thread, it goes back to the end of July. You have, in your entire posting career, posted 80 times in Lit since you first posted in 2003, a year after you registered; that works out to 1.27 posts a month only counting time since you first posted there, and 1.07 posts a month since you registered, though that's not all that representative of your actual posting habits; you went all of 2004 and 2006 without posting in Lit at all, and your actual posts tend to be concentrated in clusters. Your WUL consists of Fanficcers, not Litizens. Your own posts in here have emphasized that it isn't your home community -- Fanfic is, and you generally avoid Lit because of the atmosphere.

    I don't mean to belabor the point, but by any metric I can find, and by simple gut instinct of someone who knows the forum, you're not someone who posts in Lit a lot. Even if you're lurking in Lit every day, you're not someone who participates heavily in the co
  3. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2003
    star 5
    That's not what he's saying. He's asking you to do exactly what you're asking him to do, and nothing more: to look through a different set of eyes and to consider that you might be wrong. We're trying to do that, and we're trying to come up with some good ways to move Lit in good ways - to move it forward. We wouldn't be here, having this conversation, if we weren't, and if we weren't interested in listening. What he's asking for - what all of the Lit mods are asking for - is concrete examples of the kinds of things you think are problematic. I agree with R_F that the quotes Robimus posted in the thread that launched this one were extremely helpful. I recognize that doing that takes some time; trust me. I've invested nearly all of my time on the boards working on this in some way shape or form over the course of the last week, whether through posting in threads in Lit in ways intentionally designed to move in the direction suggested by this thread or by working in our thread in MS to collate ideas and synthesize them and move forward, or by discussing things here and via PM with users. You can ask: every one of the people who spend a large chunk of time in Lit currently who's posted in this thread besides you and Lex I invited, and every one of them I discussed some other things with to varying lengths via PM.

    Given that, can we stop taking things personally, and can we stop dismissing people's opinions just because they're not ours, please? We're here to listen to you and to work for Lit... we'd appreciate it if you hear what we have to say, and what dissenting voices like Trip, Hydro, and Becca have to say. We're all working for the same goal of making Lit a better place. If we didn't differ somewhat on how to get there and even on what that better place looks like, I'd wonder if we were all part of some mind-control scheme on someone's part, frankly. I think this is a good thing, and I think that we need to approach it as such, and with as little hostility as possible. :)

    Now, on the point being raised, the fact that you can't find such a group of threads right now, but that you're sure that it was that way around O66's release and the last several LotF releases. I think you're right. I also think that we can see that LSatSoM is not getting any such bad press, and for the most part the Coruscant Nights trilogy has been getting pretty good feedback, some continuity snafus aside. And the comics are pretty regularly getting huge appreciation (though admittedly, one of the very worst points in Lit history came at the announce of Legacy, when about half the forum panicked and declared the universe OVER). Even the Clone Wars cartoon, which is causing immense canon headaches and is something of an ongoing bugaboo (yes, I said bugaboo :p ) to Lit posters because of the havoc (not Havac!) it's creating in timelines, is looked on fairly favorably in Lit. When the new contract was announced, people were giddy about most of it. Fate of the Jedi was the only exception, and that was met with mixed response.

    That should tell us a few things. First, Litizens' primary complaint does not seem to be purely with Del Rey, though it has its ups and its downs with various segments of the population, as is to be expected. I intentionally invited people from the group that really dislikes Del Rey into this discussion, as well as people who think Del Rey has PWNd through and through. Nor is the issue to do with canon entirely - it's quite obvious that, though canon issues trouble people, they're willing to deal with it to some extent or another, though perhaps a bit grumpily. Rather, the points of contention that cause the most backlash seem to be:
    • Karen Traviss. For better or for worse (in almost everyone's opinion, I suspect, the latter), this is probably the biggest source of frustration, complaining, etc. on Lit. No way around it. We're going t
  4. Excellence Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    If Stradley "left" the forum, then he obviosuly doesn't know how popular and interstellar his current fair of series are here. KOTOR. Legacy. Dark Times. I've not even seen seldom negative feedback in over a year.
  5. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Yep, I'd agree with the hit list of hot topics:

    FOTJ: There's effectively a fuse on this burning down.
    Canon: As the old joke goes: Cannon go boom! And it tends to be so.

    (Plus the Traviss/Mando stuff)

    BUT there is a slew of favourably received material both present and future - the news that there'd be a Nomi Sunrider KOTOR novel set the fans buzzing, as did the news of a new Reaves book.

    It's very strange but if you look outside of DR's late EU material - which tends to dominate the forum, like it or loathe it - you'll find a far greater mix of opinions that are generally positive - the Corusant Nights books are a case in point, but Death Star is another example as is Luceno's unofficial PT trilogy of COD, LOE and DL. As for the upcoming Mindor book, there you have a great amount of positive anticipation.

    Then there's the comics, which have a level of popularity that is amazing. KOTOR and Legacy have been going for 3 years and even fans who don't care for the concept seem to keep an eye on them - just in case there is a big change, or they miss something interesting.

    Also in regard to VIPs I'd suggest two of the most respected are John Ostrander and Jan Duursema, why? I think it probably has to do with the fact that they tend to see fans as individuals rather than grouping them into blocks. Neither require you to agree with them, but do ask you accept that they see things as X rather than Y and people generally respond well to this.

    I would take issue though with the notion that there was ever a Golden Age of Lit in regards to fan agreement - there has been numerous fan schisms and there always will be, such is fandom. Pre-NJO there were pro/anti Mara Jade/Zahn threads, pro/anti KJA; KJA vs Zahn threads; then there was (and remains) DE! From 1999-2001 the schism was pro/anti NJO, then SBS split the pro-NJOers into pieces. TUF remains one of the most well-received books going. DN then split the fanbase, as did LOTF. It's going to keep happening and certainly the VP Wars were not well-managed, things have changed some since then, which is good.
  6. Darth_Lex Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Havac: I will send you some examples by PM tonight. Many of them are best illustrated with instances from specific threads or specific users, and I don't think it's really appropriate to get into that publicly.


    Actually, there's several full pages' worth of discussion in the Mindor thread about the continuity issues implicated by the identity of the novel's antagonist. (Sorry, I'm not sure how much of that is considered spoilers, so I hope I'm being oblique enough while still being clear what I'm referring to.) And these aren't even actual continuity issues yet - they're anticipated ones. Yet it's already being dissected, before there are even spoilers about how it's actually handled or addressed in the novel.

    Yes, there's excitement for a Stover book, and excitement to see him handle OT era Big Three (plus Lando!), but when something like half the thread is addressed to continuity dissection rather than story or characters, or general excitement, it sends a message about the priorities of the forum...

    I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. And IMO something like the Mindor thread is a perfect example of what needs to be addressed. It's fine for people to care deeply about continuity. It's another thing entirely for spoiler threads to become bogged down in continuity issues (e.g., Mandalorian backstory in Revelation and Order 66, Daala as Chief of State in Invincible, the Mindor thread, the Wild Space thread, the Rebel Force thread) instead of the actual story.

    I think a very interesting experiment would be to try a Continuity Discussion thread, spoilers allowed, and keep continuity discussions out of the spoiler threads. Let's see how the tone and dynamic of the discussion within the spoiler thread changes when continuity issues are taken elsewhere. IMO, the change would likely be very favorable, and would encourage more people to participate.
  7. TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2002
    star 5
    Havac: OK, so it's something specific to certain releases -- not a perpetual problem, but something that can flare up at times. I can see where you're coming from. I agree -- when something contentious comes out, it can take over the boards for a week. But generally, a plethora of threads about the same thing will be shut down in fairly short order, so I'm still not sure what kind of domination you're talking about. Again, I'd like more specific examples than "yeah, it was there." I can't understand your complaint if I don't know what we're talking about. If I want to point out something far off to someone, I don't vaguely wave my hand across the horizon and say, "It's out there." I've got to know what you're talking about specifically before I can give you any kind of specific reply -- otherwise we're just going to sit here frustrating each other the whole time because we can't seem to get our points across.

    You know I went back looking through pages to give you a concrete answer but it?s just impossible unless there?s a way to recreate Page Ones on the times I clicked and thought, ?Oi vey! How many threads can there be griping about the Mandos or Jacen?s fall, etc.? The fact is they are my impressions and the impressions I?ve heard from others; and the fact is you agreed above that contentious points seem to take over the boards. So really I?ve made my point and you?ve agreed with my impression. I?m not a mod, but there are times I?ve seen first page and felt like threads could have been shuffled together. Next time I see this I?ll let you know, if you?re interested ;)

    Please; I've never suggested your opinion doesn't count. I've said it's a different kind of opinion than that of someone who's posting in Lit every day and part of the community.

    Well actually you did. I participate in Lit. Maybe not up to your standards, but your post classifies opinions as ?inside? and ?outside? and therefore you?re qualifying their worth. And this isn?t an isolated case of you classifying opinions. You dismissed my opinion in a recent discussion because I was a fan of a certain character, and derided another user?s ability to actually read a story as a way to class them out of the discussion.

    Let?s compare that to your request for me to clarify when these good old days of VIP harmony existed. While my posting status came to bear when you needed to classify my ?outside? status; it certainly wasn?t relative in regards to the length I had been around TFN. Dingo came in to explain that the good old days was before your time. But he didn?t go out of his way to say, ?Yeah, well you?re a relative newbie so you wouldn?t know about that.? He just answered the question. What I?m getting to here is a matter of style. You see nothing wrong with putting people in boxes in a manner that suggests superiority or inferiority and making sure the poster you?re addressing, as well as everyone else knows that. Obviously you think that style is okay, perhaps because that?s what you?ve seen in your three years at TFN.

    In Resource, say one user addresses another user by prefacing, ?Well we know what ?ship you favor?? then goes on to finish the post, that type of talk isn?t really acceptable because it?s decisive. Not only that, such decisive interaction is discouraged, not only by the mods, but also by the community as well. And I?m certainly not suggesting we can?t be contentious but really it?s about arguing the point and not the person. If your position has merit, whether I?ve posted two or two thousand times, your position will hold up against mine without qualifying the value of my opinion or that of others.

    Keralys: That's not what he's saying. He's asking you to do exactly what you're asking him to do, and nothing more: to look through a different set of eyes and to consider that you might be wrong.
    You see, that?s the problem in and of itself. You and Havac are turning this into a right or wrong. It?s not about right or wrong. Am I right because I liked Invincible and thos
  8. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Normally, however, DR release a Dramatis Personae or give a few titbits ahead of publication, there's far less of that with Mindor which means people are going to discuss more of what is known and will look at sources of info ahead of getting the book. Once Mindor is out I think you'll see discussion of the story and characters dominating the thread.

    The other point I'd make is I haven't had the sense that the book is being discussed negatively, rather it's a positive sense of anticipation due to both the nature of the material being covered and the author writing. I don't see why this is a bad thing.
  9. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2003
    star 5
    Ben hits it on the head on this one, Lex. The continuity discussion has been almost entirely positive in the Mindor thread; it's essentially anticipation. While I don't think separating the continuity discussion out is inherently a bad idea - quite the contrary, and we're discussing it - I don't think the Mindor discussion is overwhelmingly hurt by it. You'll also note that I put a damper on that conversation and said, "Hey, let's actually talk about the book in the book thread." Problem solved, by moderator intervention, just like you want... so what's the issue?

    I'll be back to address other stuff later. The only thing I do want to say right now is this: TKeira_Less, I challenge you to find one time here where a person on Lit staff has said, "This is fine; we don't think there's any problem here," in this thread. You won't. We may differ about the extent to which there's a problem, and we may ask to you demonstrate that the problem is to the extent that you allege it, but we're not saying that there's no problem, just that the problem might not be as intense as you say it is, and we'd like to be convinced rather than just taking you at your word. It's not that we don't trust you; it's that we don't see it, and as such, we're going to need reasonable evidence that it's true before we change our minds. :)
  10. Darth_Lex Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    Well, obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on the Mindor thread, then. [face_peace]

    I hope at least you can make an effort to understand why a thread like that is offputting to many "outsiders" to Lit, even if, at the end of the day, the decision is made that this is how Lit should operate.
  11. beccatoria Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2006
    star 4
    But that basically boils down to, "you guys are being too negative," just in terms of methods of expression and tone rather than objective opinions. And again, that's a subjective judgement that's impossible to distill into an absolute rule. So the only solution is more active moderation which I've already stated I would support.

    And as I've also stated, I think that yes there are times when people cross the line, but I also think that the cultural tone of Lit is simply more critical than some people prefer in a community. I'm absolutely not suggesting that we ignore poor behaviour and write it off as, "Oh, Lit's just like that," which is why I support our mods in more actively weeding out actual bad behaviour. But I'm also wary of writing off Lit's entire character and tone, and indeed its appeal in some cases, as the root problem. Because then we wouldn't have Lit.

    Obviously if mods and/or VIPs are behaving poorly this is something that needs to be addressed and is a very serious issue.

    I'm also aware that it's very difficult to "call out" anyone in this environment and that doing so may be inflammatory, but at the same time, I honestly can't think who you'd be referring to.

    We have four mods and a small handful of non-EU-writer VIPs who are regular Lit posters (I'm assuming that you're not referring to them when you say VIP). Offhand I can think of three or four TFN staff writers, myself, Loyal_Imperial, and both of the recent EUC chancellors who have also been regular Litizens. I'm sure I'm missing a few (for which I apologise, I have a terrible memory), but the point is, that's a pretty small pool and a pretty hefty allegation. And certainly one that needs addressing somehow if you feel there's substantial issues in the way Lit VIPs and Mods are behaving.

    But addressing that issue in any constructive way will require more than vague accusations and a more specific line of discussion. I know that speaking for myself I always try to be aware of the tone of my posts and their contribution to the discussion (even if I sometimes sink into silliness...) and the impression I've had of other mods and VIPs has always been that they are aware of the same issues.

    I'm not trying to get defensive here, just trying to establish that I'm genuinely questioning whether this is an idea that needs to be implemented or an idea that already is implemented. And if it isn't, could you clarify?

  12. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    It was locked - probably because no one was posting there! If anything the NJOCC was very much a creation of its time when the Lit board was very pro-NJO and was not being friendly to dissenting views, so NJOCC got created over in EUC and worked well, over the years it also functioned as a social hub - hence its EUC location - and expanded to cover DN and LOTF.

    BUT due to the way NJO developed and the further twists added by DN and LOTF, the hostility to those who didn't care for these stories in the main - generally the negative points outweigh the positive - pretty much evaporated. In effect DR smashed its pro-fanbase to pieces!
  13. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Should the thread continue to be dominated by continuity aspects when the book has been released, I'd say it'd be accepted that you have a point on this. I don't think it'll be the case though - as once the book's out the amount of stuff to talk about instead of continuity will probably be very great.
  14. TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2002
    star 5
    I?ll assume you misspelling of my name was just that :)

    To answer your challenge I quote Havac followed by your subsequent support of this statement.
    Havac?s quote above does not insinuate in the least that we?re talking shades of intensity. Actually that?s the point I want to address. You seem to feel that I?m saying something along the line of ?Lit sucks, fix it.? You?re defensive that I even have an opinion. I guess I assumed that since you opened this thread you were open to opinions. What I?ve been saying is, ?I think there is a way for you to bring in more contributors and help the forum grow.?

    Exactly.

    Well I noted to Havac directly that I?ve seen him addresses people and not the points. I don?t think this is an egregious offensive that warrants review. People ask for hard concrete proof of why I have this impression of Lit or why I stated that the change might be led from the top down. I came into a Lit discussion last week and in the course of two days had to twice ask Havac, a mod, why he had to disparage people?s participation. People see a mod interact with other users like that and it becomes okay. No, it?s not wrong in the sense that he?s breaking any rules, but that?s the tone he conveys while wearing Lit?s colors.

    As for the rest of your post, point taken and well said.
  15. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I'm going to be frank. When you guys start getting defensive, it'll change the tone of the whole conversation and we'll start going in circles. We've been giving some solutions, that you say you're considering, so maybe we could have a nice post where there's a summary, minus a lot of quote replies, and there's some tangible things to consider going forward. I saw you guys agree that dedicated author threads was being considered, as well as looking at the Review threads differently. What about the moderation of IU vs OOU? NOT getting rid of OOU, but the moderation or organization thereof. I also think we've heard more moderation loud and clear, anything else?
  16. Robimus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Keralys & Havac: I think Bec sums up best what I'm reffering to, what I think of as this "fanboy snobbery". It's the difference in interpretations of canon, being told that the sources you've looked up don't count at all even though they clearly create a contradicting view of the facts and how they add up.

    At this point I'm not going to dredge up anymore old threads for quotes, but the last example I did show is an example of intellectual snobbery over fan boy snobbery, but it is similar to comments I've had aimed my way in canon debates on a few subjects.

    Also, I'll mention this once more and drop the issue. I really feel like claims by anyone the like of "You don't get what Star Wars is about" is a subtle or not so subtle snobbery. You both don't agree so I'll accept that and move on, but that is my perception.:)

    Havac Posted: And part of the problem here is that I see a lot of your and Lex's complaints coming from a highly skewed outside view of Lit. And outside views are certainly valuable, but we can't accept all their criticism as being inherently right because it's from outside any more than we can reject it all as being inherently wrong because it's from outside.

    I too am not sure where your going with this Havac. I would hope that the views from someone like Dingo or Lex or whoever would be considered in the same manner as concerns from yourself, Keralys or whoever. I really don't think it should matter where the critism is coming from.

    I've chatted up numerous folks in Fanfic in an effort to try and get them into discussions in Lit, and I've heard a lot of similar responses. Lit is a place where a lot of these folks don't feel comfortable......at times I don't feel comfortable there either:p ..........and maybe there is nothing we can do about that, but claiming that their opinions are a "highly skewed outside view" doesn't seem to be of any help here.

    Trip makes a couple good points. Lit is kinda like the crossroads of the EU forums in many ways, and its a place that to its benefit(I think;) ) invites opposing viewpoints, a deeper examination of published works, so on.

    Also this issue does pop up every few months as he mentions, people get stuff off their chests, then it goes away again. I know venting makes me feel better:D, so I always contribute. But the question Trip asks is a valid one: Will this make any difference? Can it make any difference? I'm willing to accept that Lit might just be, well, Lit :p , forever.

    That said I greatly appreciate the voice we've been given here and think that a little open discussion about how to make things better is a good thing.:)

  17. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Something to consider: Quality vs quantity of posts.

    Is it really accurate to say a reduction in people posting means that the forum has a problem? Because I'm not convinced it is. If anything it's more accurate to say that people sometimes don't have anything to say on a topic, then a new thread comes along that engages their interest. Equally people may have other demands on their time that are entirely independent of the internet.

    There's a tendency to draw the worst conclusion as opposed to the more accurate which'll likely be a good deal less straight-forward.
  18. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    It seems to me that people are discussing continuity because people care about continuity. And it seems pretty silly to say they're talking about it to the exclusion of "story or characters", when the matter being discussed is the identity and history of one of the main characters. Furthermore, I don't see how this counters Ker's point, because the response, even in continuity discussion, is overwhelmingly positive. The main reaction is "What a cool connection!", and people are even talking about how they want to learn about the character's existing past. How is that a negative thing?

    But that's assuming that continuity and story are something inseparable, or that the latter is the only preferred topic of discussion. To me it's like saying "people are too bogged down in characterization instead of the actual story" or "people are too bogged down in whether it's written well instead of the actual story". And it also strikes me as somewhat self-centered to say "No, you can't talk about those things that everyone is talking about; let's only talk about the things I want." You can't make people talk about things they aren't interested in, and unless this "bogging down" is one or two posters posting the same things over again?and that's something moddable, and something that is modded?then the fact that people continue on that topic suggests there's enough interest to sustain it. The only issue I see is that discussion topics tend to fall one at a time, to the exclusion of others, but that's part of their nature and applies equally all around; it means that when people are talking about story or characterization, it's just as bogged down and hard to switch topics as when continuity is the subject.
  19. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2003
    star 5
    roo - I replied to you last and, in many ways, most importantly. :) A few things before that.
    Actually, I agree rather thoroughly, and one of the things we were talking about even before this thread came up is exactly what to do with that sort of thing. We'd already agreed on harder moderation. Alas, we haven't gotten nearly as far as we would like there, simply because we're busy - not least with this! - but that is something we're taking action on. You'll see some updates to the Code of Conduct and use of Grimby's fancy new announcement system to highlight them, as well as stricter moderation on that point, in very short order - hopefully within the week. The stricter moderation is already happening to some extent, but we're trying to figure out where the new lines are, how to stifle that sort of thing while still not jumping all over people's posts. It gets a lot more subjective than most of the other stuff we handle (spamming and cursing are not so hard to figure out, you know?), and so we've got to find the right line.

    Regarding Havac's comments to Lex and TKeira_Lea - I don't think he's trying to just throw their opinions out. But, as Becca pointed out, it's silly not to take into consideration people's background when evaluating their opinions and arguments. I take Dingo pretty seriously because he modded Lit for a long time, and invited Jedi Ben because he's been around for AGES (yeah, that's right, old guy :p ). I also invited folks like you, relatively new to Lit, ChildofWinds, that I couldn't have less in common with as far as our appreciation of Star Wars goes unless she thought Zayne Carrick the devil, and so on - the people I invited I invited because of those differences in background. I think Lex and TKeira_Lea bring some possibly valuable opinion to the table, but the latter in particular (and please don't take statement of fact here as criticism) is not nearly as involved in Lit as even you are, much less someone like Lord_Hydronium. That leads to both good and bad differences in viewpoint: outside can sometimes be more objective, but it can also sometimes miss dynamics that exist because of the nature of the community that are not bad but are very different from that which one is used to. I can't speak for Havac's intent or attitude there, but I can speak for mine. :)

    TKeira - I misspelled your name because it was early, I was running on 4.5 hours of sleep, and I made a typo. :p
    I'm actually not defensive at all, here. Disagreement does not imply defensiveness. :) I read Havac's post as saying that he wanted you to consider the possibility that you're wrong just as you're asking us to - not coming out and saying, "No, you're wrong, I don't want to hear it," but rather asking for a fair hearing and a willingness to dialogue rather than attack. I'd appreciate it if we kept this relatively not-intense and didn't turn it into a growling match; I frankly don't think it'll get us anywhere.

    Again, I'm open to hearing what you have to say. Do you have concrete suggestions as to how to improve Lit? Actual things we can do? If so, excellent! I will gladly hear them, and we'll talk about them, and if they make sense to me at all, I'll fight for them. (I can't promise to fight for something that doesn't make sense to
  20. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    There's only one answer to that: When 32 you reach, not so good you will look! :)

    Seriously, an interesting set of ideas especially in regard to breaking the OOU from IU elements in a practical way.
  21. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I agree, those things look pretty good to me.
  22. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    You mean in regard to splitting the boards? I'm somewhat ambivalent. I'd be against splitting Lit into 8 boards for specific eras as that'd compartmentalise things too much, but there is the dominating influence of NJO-DN-LOTF in Lit. Perhaps a 2-board split could work of NJO-DN-LOTF(-FORJ) + Legacy and a second board for everything else?

    What I wouldn't want to lose is the overlaps between eras which enables a fan of one EU strand to become aware of another they may like and without Lit being the way it is, they may not have found out about. Or a fan enters Lit looking info about X, spies a different thread that they find themselves intrigued by and end up with a new EU avenue to explore.
  23. Robimus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I'm very pleased to hear that so much is moving forward, and I have already noticed the tighter moderation in Lit.=D=

    That year end award idea is a great one! I think it could work in a way very similar to the EU polls on favorite characters, quotes and such. I missed who came up with that one, they deserve a big tihaar:p (If they are of legal age of course,,,,and if not come to Canada, you only have to be 18 here:p )
  24. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Just to clarify: The recent DE thread, which saw Keralys intervened in to prevent a retreading of very well-trodden ground would be what I have in mind by 'house rules' - if you start a topic you know has a chance of being derailed in very specific ways, is it so unreasonable to ask that, since it's well-covered ground, we don't go over it again? This is pretty much akin to what you lay out the start of your second para anyway, so this is more a point of phrasing than actual disagreement.
  25. J_K_DART Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Some comments on the ideas put forward...

    Actively seeking to develop posting habits focused on IU discussion, including a number of oft-batted around ideas (RF's IU trial threads being one of them), and just generally posting and contributing in an IU rather than OOU direction.

    This, I think, is a good one. I'd be interested to see this done.

    Creating a separate continuity thread where we can direct all those things so they don't take up everything else.

    Likewise, I think this has potential. Let's face it, nobody's here discussing how TPM changes the timeline in regard to ANH (I don't even know whether or not it did, but probably!). Continuity is a debate in every newly-published work, meaning that once the continuity has been pounded back into shape again then it's over with. That means a continuity thread can easily work, imo.

    Possibly implementing an actual policy regarding IU discussion, the details of which we're hammering out, but which would very firmly direct but not eliminate OOU discussion so it doesn't take over so many threads.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, this would need careful handling re: new posters in particular.

    Active moderation on negativity of a non-productive variety - especially "drive-by posting" of dislikes in a thread designed for actual discussion, right up to and including bans as necessary. (And frankly, there's no reason this can't include gushing, too, when it's annoying or over the top.) Also, constant harangues on books people haven't read. And in general, the kind of intellectual snobbery that we do all agree is present, even if we differ on the "fanboy" side of things that Lex brought up. Dealing with derailing. Just generally more aggressive moderation.

    Again, positive steps imo. Of course, some of this will be potentially quite controversial; a poster may not realise they've fallen into that category! There's even an issue re: moderation, because, no offense, but Mods are people too (lol) and are intrinsically less likely (note: I didn't say unlikely!) to see this when it involves an opinion they agree with. That's basic humanity, however hard we try to manage it. It may involve setting up a "safe than sorry" approach, where if a Mod feels strongly on an issue and notices strong posts, they choose to have a Mod with different views check it over? Just thinking 'aloud' here.

    Looking at how exactly we might take Trip's suggestion to simply get stuff on the table and have a names-named discussion, if indeed it will be helpful (we're talking with admins about this, too, with affirmative response on the things we're looking at).

    I wouldn't like that idea, tbt, because it just seems... unpleasant to me. The only person I'd feel comfortable raising is myself, because the only person whose moderation I have a direct influence on is me.

    Planning a Lit Year in Review thread with voting for best-of-the-year awards for books, comics, authors, etc., and highlighting some of the top events of the year and some of the top threads and developments in Lit throughout the year. This is one of those active improvement areas, and it's one we were talking about before this thread came up. This one's definite; we're finishing up planning it and will launch it in January.

    LOVE IT!

    Re: Sin's suggestion, my gut instinct is no. It'd compartmentalise things more than I like.

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