Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

I know you addressed this in your edit, but just for emphasis regarding this item and the others like it, I don't think it's so easy to divide continuity discussion from some sort of real, allowed discussion. I mean, continuity is an aspect of the book; and it's one tied to a lot of things people who don't care about it might consider actual discussion, like story and characterization. It's on topic, and while I understand that it can be annoying to want to discuss other topics and everyone else is talking about continuity, that's not unique to it. I would often go into the Invincible thread to find discussions on things I couldn't care less about, so I either talked about something I did care about, or I turned around and left.

Basically, what I'm saying is that continuity isn't some special subject that we should treat differently, it's a legitimate topic of discussion that, like any other, can take over a thread. What I think might help is if we had a way of treating those kinds of topics as they occur; say, if a certain line of discussion is dominating a general discussion thread to the exclusion of all others, it can be spun off into its own thread. Not automatically segregate continuity?or any topic of?discussion from the start, but give it its own thread for discussion if it seems to warrant one.

If we're going to divide IU, I think I'd prefer to see it like this: One, a general thread that allows IU and OOU. I think because we're talking about fiction, the two are inextricably linked, and it's not so easy to say "talk less about OOU". Writing quality, characterization, the cohesiveness of a series: I think they're all important topics that are firmly OOU. However, two is to create an IU only thread; if people just want to speculate, talk about character motivations, discuss actions of the characters, etc., they have a place to do it there. That doesn't mean IU discussion would be excluded from the other thread, or even necessarily encouraged to all move over there; but in a case like, say, Order 66, it would give those who want to talk about the future of the characters a place to do so when the other thread is dominated by people's OOU concerns with the novel.

 

Comparing Lit to Resource is silly. The demographics are completely different, so of course the discussion is going to be different. Resource skews female enough that the guys have their own thread to hide from the estrogen. Lit skews heavily male, and the tone of discussion is not too different from other boards on the site that also skew male and continue to, say, loudly argue about whether Darth Maul should have died or not without attracting nearly as much official censure.

 

Lex: Havac: I will send you some examples by PM tonight. Many of them are best illustrated with instances from specific threads or specific users, and I don't think it's really appropriate to get into that publicly.

You're probably right on that. I'll look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Lex again: Actually, there's several full pages' worth of discussion in the Mindor thread about the continuity issues implicated by the identity of the novel's antagonist. (Sorry, I'm not sure how much of that is considered spoilers, so I hope I'm being oblique enough while still being clear what I'm referring to.) And these aren't even actual continuity issues yet - they're anticipated ones. Yet it's already being dissected, before there are even spoilers about how it's actually handled or addressed in the novel.

Yes, there's excitement for a Stover book, and excitement to see him handle OT era Big Three (plus Lando!), but when something like half the thread is addressed to continuity dissection rather than story or characters, or general excitement, it sends a message about the priorities of the forum...

Yes, there's continuity discussion, but that's because that's the breaking news from the new Encyclopedia. There's nothing else to talk about right now; no one has the book. We can't discuss characterization or plot. Anything else we know about the book is old, old news by this point and has already been discussed to death. And as Keralys and Ben have pointed out, that's entirely natural and normal, and the general response had some negativity, but the overall response has been, "Hey, that's neat." And while I can see your point that, for people who aren't interested in continuity, coming in and seeing that might turn them off -- I can definitely see that -- the fact remains that that's not something we can really do anything about. We can't ban people from talking about what interests them. As Hydro has said, we can't totally separate it out. I don't see how it's any different from, when people get the book, fans who want to see talk about Rogue Squadron's role in the book finding everyone discussing Blackhole, or fans who want to hear about the fleet tactics disappointed that everyone seems to be concentrated on Luke, or people who want to discuss how uber-cool the villain is finding an analysis of Stover's writing of the Big Three. It's unfortunate that people don't always find what they want as the top item of discussion, but it's not anything we can fix; the instant we change the topic, we turn off those people who liked the previous topic.

Lex some more: I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. And IMO something like the Mindor thread is a perfect example of what needs to be addressed. It's fine for people to care deeply about continuity. It's another thing entirely for spoiler threads to become bogged down in continuity issues (e.g., Mandalorian backstory in Revelation and Order 66, Daala as Chief of State in Invincible, the Mindor thread, the Wild Space thread, the Rebel Force thread) instead of the actual story.

I think a very interesting experiment would be to try a Continuity Discussion thread, spoilers allowed, and keep continuity discussions out of the spoiler threads. Let's see how the tone and dynamic of the discussion within the spoiler thread changes when continuity issues are taken elsewhere. IMO, the change would likely be very favorable, and would encourage more people to participate.

But why is it different? What about a thread being bogged down in discussion of how the story fits into continuity is different from a spoiler thread being bogged down in early speculation about who the villain is, or discussion of the awesome action scene on page 207, or discussion of Luke's characterization, or discussion of whether they think this opens the door to a follow-up story, or discussion of how awesome Lando was, or discussion of the cool new character working as the villain's right-hand man who you never actually see die on-page?

I've already suggested that we use the existin

 

I just want to take a moment out here and second what sabarte has said. Speaking as someone who cross-posts between the Literature and Expanded Universe Community boards, the EUC does tend to slide towards the same kind of demographics as those in Resource that were mentioned, and the same sort of division of discussion shows up there too.

 

It seems to me the crux of the problem in Lit is Traviss, and the controversy her works arouse in Lit posters. Fortunately, there is a simple solution: ban the discussion of Traviss and her works from Lit. Do that, and the discontent will disappear. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. Stover, Perry, and the other authors currently writing simply don't arouse this kind of ire in Litizens.

 

Thirding it, and not just because of the male/female demographics. In my experience, FanFiccers and Litizens often come at the same material with fundamentally different objectives. That doesn't mean that crossover won't happen - as a matter of fact, there are quite a few FanFiccers in Lit and vice versa - but it does mean that such crossover is not a given, nor should it be. Each board exists for a specific purpose and appeals to a certain group, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I would want that no more than wanting games discussion or OOU discussion "banned". Lit has made it through controversy before with some pulling up of the boot straps and making people post respectfully. It's even shed some of it's more controversial users that were "detrimental to the community" for repeated infractions (Mara bashing in every post comes to mind). It will make it through a few overzealous fanboys and girls and an author getting their knickers in a twist, just like it's done before.

 

Stars! Miss a day; miss a lot here, I see!

Master_Keralys : I also invited folks like you, relatively new to Lit, ChildofWinds, that I couldn't have less in common with as far as our appreciation of Star Wars goes unless she thought Zayne Carrick the devil,

Well, we have one point of agreement anyway. I LOVE Zayne Carrick and the KotOR comics!

CoW - thanks for that insight. I think you hit a valid point, though I do want to find a good balance as regards VIPs as well.

Are you referring to my comment about feeling strongly about it being better to err on the side of expressive freedom rather than restrictiveness?

I think the point that users needing to feel their POV has at least been heard and respected, even if disagreed with, is a very important one. How do you think we could accomplish that better?

Well, you can't really control what comes out of a poster's mouth (keyboard) when, as Robimus said, people say things like "You don't get what Star Wars is about", or Why do you read the books if all you do is complain?" or just flat out say, "That's ridiculous! You're wrong," when someone expresses an opinion. I've actually heard posters tell other posters that their morals are "all messed up." However, when someone engages in this kind of negative posting fairly consistently, then maybe a mod can step in and do something about it.

But I think the best way to make users feel that they are respected and valued is to proactively have a friendly, welcoming atmosphere on the boards, and all of us can help with this. That way, when there is someone who makes a snarky or offensive or hurtful remark, it's easier for posters to brush it off as atypical. Sometimes just a positive comment about something that a user posts now and then helps. A little positive reinforcement goes a long way. I know that I always welcome someone new who posts in the SOS thread or who says he/she is new to the boards in other threads. It's also good when mods can join in a discussion. When they set a positive example, I think it affects the quality of the discussion in the threads.

Obviously, mods can't post every day in every thread. They have other lives. But if each one could participate in at least a few different threads every week, I think that would have a positive effect. I have noticed more active participation by the mods recently, and I think that's a very good thing.

I'd also like to say that when mods do need to delete posts or remind folks to get back on topic, if it's done in a friendly or humorous way, that might promote a better atmosphere too. For example, I noticed recently that Keralys had to lock a thread of a new poster. But he did it in a really kindly way, welcoming the poster to the boards, but explaining exactly why he had to close his thread, while at the same time encouraging him to make another. Of course, there will be times when the mods will need to be more forceful if posters just don't get it or don't comply. But I think most of the time, gentle or humorous reminders will suffice with most posters.

Keralys, I agree with you that Karen Traviss; the direction of the Big Three of the OT in the NJO, DN and LotF; and canon issues are probably the three that generate the most negativity. However, I'm not sure you *can* do much about that. I don't think you can expect people to be positive about something they feel passionately disappointed about, and I think they should be allowed to express their feelings. This is a Lit discussion board; it's not just a board for those who love everything that is being published. You won't have much of a discussion if everyone agrees with everyone else. As others have said, it's not as if everyone is being negative about everything. If people are pleased about something, as most are with KotOR and Legacy, you'll get positive comments. When fans are unhappy about what they're reading, there will be more negative comments, and I don't think that can be controlled. As of LotF, more fans have become disenchanted with t

 

Nothing new to add, just wanted to second the opinion that a "Best of!" retrospective thread for the year would be a great idea; I'd really look forward to that.

Also I don't think that banning discussion of Traviss is reasonable for the reasons already given by the mods, even though I agree that a very large amount of the issues in Lit stem from the various issues around that subject.

Also I'd like to add that I agree with what sabs and Gabri_Jade say about the demographics. While everyone who knows me knows that I'll fight tooth and nail over gender stereotyping, and while I've seen mostly female communities with atmospheres quite similar to Lit's (I haven't personally seen mostly male communities with atmospheres more similar to Resource but I'm sure they exist), those have also been the exceptions rather than the rules. I'm not entirely sure whether the gender split is entirely pertinent to the discussion because the issue isn't whether posters are male or female but how they behave and whether they feel comfortable on a particular forum, but I guess I'd say it's at least relevant in that it provides one more example of how communities develop different cultures to appeal to their primary user-group, and that in itself isn't a bad thing. (Obviously, it can become a bad thing if the cultural environment is toxic/unhealthy but that's what's under discussion and I'm rapidly digging myself into irrelevancy so I'll shut up now.)

Finally, CoW, HOORAY for Zayne! ANyone who DOESN'T love him is a heathen with no understanding of Star Wars, dagnabbit! ...Wait...what was this thread for again?

 

Havac,

I think that you can generally fit that in under defining the topic and agenda of discussion, yeah. The thing is, if you can't -- if you're in a situation where you're setting up a thread where you go "How do you feel about NJO? Now, I'm tired of people saying they hated it because of Anakin, so no one talk about that," there you have a problem because you're laying out a general topic of discussion, and then forbidding certain people from weighing in because of their opinion. That's not the kind of rules I'd like to see, and I probably wouldn't allow that kind of mini-modding of what's permissible in your thread.

* I'd to think I have more style and subtlety than that, but I can well appreciate what you're getting at and agree.

However, if you created one where you delineated the topic carefully and said, "How do you feel about the NJO, aside from Anakin's death -- do you feel like the rest of it had merit, or that you would have enjoyed it without that?" you'd have a topic of discussion that's limited, not a wide-open topic where some people are told they just can't voice their opinions.

* Quite so.

Quest,

There's always been fan divisions over what they prefer, but, with exception to a few key posters, they generally did not inspire such vitrol. I don't think Lit/EU fandom has ever had a Golden Age in regards to fan agreement. I do think the forum has had a general Golden Age, however. Things palpably changed After 3 Million from what they were Before 3 Million.

* Ah, see I'd have placed the VP Wars as the most vicious BUT as a non-Mod, I exercised my option to not get involved in that nuclear fracas!

I could tell then when it happened and we're still dealing with issues, at their core, that originated from that debacle. Things that have been brought up here as related issues such as Lit's perception as being so negative really came from there.

* O-K. I think you've just convinced me that the 3 Million affair does get top spot, since it's what 3-4 years since it all blew up? The effect of the VP Wars saw the creation of NJOCC, but that was a case of posters moving from board to board with occasional forays into Li, so not as destructive as what you've laid out above.

I still wonder how much different things would be right now if I had paid attention to that thread early instead of waiting to read the article for myself, and nipped that crap before it got out of hand. It wouldn't have stopped the TOS and blog problems related to it, but it may have dulled Karen's retaliations in her stories and blogs over the years and calmed some of the more current itterations of issues we're dealing with.

* From what you've explained though, it was a schism of unprecedented nature - it's always easy to know in hindsight what you could have tried but at the time? Much harder.

* Oh and Becc: re KOTOR: Although that raises an intruing Q of why so many fans of such wide background quite like KOTOR as much as they do? Hmm, might make for a good thread.

JB

 

It took me awhile to catch up with the thread. Darn RL.

Keralys, I like your list of action items that you and the other mods are reviewing.

Sinre's suggestion of splitting Lit is a bold suggestion, but I don't think it addresses the underlying issues. Other threads in Comms are discussing merging boards, so I don't believe that separating Lit is a good idea right now. Like others have mentioned, I like the fact that Lit is "one-stop shopping for EU".

Mods cannot be in every thread at all times, so some self-policing is needed. Fan Fic has been mentioned by a couple of people, so I'll use one of the Resource threads as an example. User X is the thread host for a characterization/ship/era thread. User X, as thread host, may bring up specific topics for discussion. User X is encouraged to gently steer conversation back "on target" if the conversations begins to wander too far off-course or PM a mod if someone crosses a line where mod assistance/intervention is needed.

 

That was a general, example "you".

 

When I found these boards I started posting in Lit.
Today, I think it's a miracle I'm still here.

When I hear Lit, all my defences go up automatically and I get ready to fire, just in case, I know I'll need it.
And I'm not even there often. Maybe I am a very prejudiced old Lady, but many people I know seem to have similar attitudes. Lit has a bad name. I once suggested (only half jokingly, to rename it 'Continuity Discussion Board'.)

I had my last attempts there when Order 66 came out. Very bad idea, I agree, but I was willing to give the discussion thread there a shot. What I remember most vividly of the discussion:

1) Pages of discussion if the use of Shysa Fenn (who the Force is Shysa Fenn) was making continuity problems or not
2) awesome amount of posts discussing something in a LotF book, because it tied in to O66. (Jaina/Boba/Jacen)

Also, people never seemed to reply to anything that was not continuity related. And things that worked well for continuity and even solved problems were generously ignored.

Conclusion: More moderation, I don't care by whom.
1) Whack some of those sprung records on so they don't keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.
2)Make sure that minor tangents don't take over the discussion.
4) More positivity. In FF we have that rule 'if you can't say something nice, shut up'. Not meaning to implement that in Lit, but as long as the complete inversion (if you don't have something negative to say shut up) seems to be implemented Lit sucks.
3) Actually, you can do what you please, because, personally, I never intend to go back.

 

I thought I'd said that I did get your point!

 

MsLanna :
In FF we have that rule 'if you can't say something nice, shut up'.

I think fanfic is a bit different though. The fanfic is written by people who aren't professionals and fanfic is free. It's good to encourage nonprofessional writers in a positive way as it's really their only "paycheck", their only reward for their hard work. But I would think that even fanfic writers would like some feedback about what the reader didn't feel worked all that well, in order to improve their future writing.

In Lit, most of the readers have paid for the books and comics that they read, and the authors have been paid for their work. I think that entitles the readers to express their opinions. If you really *don't* like the darker, more depressing direction that the publisher has been moving in for the past nearly ten years, how can you say only nice things? And if only those who like everything they read is allowed to post on a discussion board, how much of a discussion are you going to have and how authentic is it going to be?

And I haven't seen much evidence of posters telling positive posters to "shut up." If anything, the opposite has been more true. I know that I've been "shot down" for bringing up a negative.

As I've said, you can't control everything that people say. Some people do say snarky and hurtful things. That's why I suggested that all of us try to "pay it forward" so to speak, by giving posters positive posting experiences, by making Lit a friendly place to balance and blunt the occasional nasty remark that's disrespectful.

 

From what you've posted it sounds like, of all the possible areas and threads you could have wandered into, you ended up in easily the hottest and most volatile one. Order 66 and Mando discussions are really, in my experience, best observed in fully cloaked lurk mode. You keep your head down at all times.

BUT that single area is not representative of Lit but plenty of people obviously feel that it is, at the same time though, just about every Mod involved in this discussion has acknowledged the problem. Solutions are quite a bit harder but quite a few things look set to be trialled.

 

I think this difference deserves to be emphasized. That's definitely an area wherein Lit and FanFic differ, but neither is inherently "wrong". (Myself, I think that FanFic rule has some downsides, including what CoW said about concrit being helpful, but that's irrelevant here.) There's a big difference between not being allowed to say something negative about a story written by an amateur for fun and not being allowed to express your honest dissatisfaction with something you paid for.

Besides which, FanFic is hardly devoid of negativity. We don't criticize each other's stories, no, but I've seen plenty of people complaining about or expressing indifference toward the profic in Resource. I've even seen a lot of complaints about profic in responses to stories. I myself once had to ask a reviewer to please not insult the professional authors as a way of complimenting me. Lit undoubtedly has areas that could use tweaking, but FanFic's no angel in this area either.

 

Grab a coffee and kick up your feet. I'm responding to one direct quote, but after that to make life easier (for me) I'm not.

Honestly, all of the above and a little more. Lex came in rather strongly and shifted a large amount of the blame for what he sees onto a particular section of users. Now, rightly or wrongly (and I'm not saying he's wrong, but he's not completely right either) in regards to his view, the nature of the presentation leads to a certain amount of "getting the backs up" of people with an opposing viewpoint. Havac's response is just the same. In a medium that is for the most part tone neutral in delivery, a lot of what is taken from the text people read is their own view, but also based off subtler cues. With Havac's immediate response in that the syntax and pacing used, it implies a sharper, more hostile attitude. Add in the quick-fired, possibly sarcastic, or even caustic, riposte of yours and you get what can look like a case of people making sniping comments and taking jabs at each other. It's how this appears to people who are browsing or casual forum-goers that is one of the roots of the negative posting habits that I personally have brought up on more than just this occasion.

And given that we all post in a forum regarding writing, it's fair enough to say that most of us know enough about sentence structure, etc to be able to take an extra few seconds/minutes to think about the wording we choose to make the way we engage in discourse of a higher standard.



In regards to the suggestion about a private forum for discussion of these issues, it has its own pros and cons. The pros can been seen by looking at the Lit Poll forum where specific topics can be broken down into smaller discussion without interfering with larger ones, and also giving a chance for in depth discussion. But one thing that privatisation of this conversation does is limit the views to those that are specifically selected, without the chance for persons with outside views to read and find something worthwhile to contribute. It also means that those who have left Lit for one reason or another but stayed on the JC might not get the chance to see what is being discussed and at least air what left them to stop using the Lit forum, and possibly having the chance to look at and rectify the issue in some cases.



This has been gone over previously in the thread and hopefully fully understood, but I want to say it again as one of the people that brought this discussion up, and that none of this has been about ?negative? opinions at all. The whole issue I?ve had is with negative/detrimental posting habits that prevent/discourage/halt productive discourse between fellow forum goers. I have opinions on some material that isn?t favourable and would most certainly like to be able to state or discuss that when wanted, but I don?t want to have great avenues of discussion killed by the way people feel they need to express themselves.



Issues around the moderators and moderating itself really tie into a lot of what is at the core of everything else. Ultimately it doesn?t matter how much the forum community itself tries to control things (more on that below), the moderating team are going to be responsible for how a forum runs purely because they are the ones that have the ability to enforce things. I?m not saying that ?you all have sucked?, but it isn?t a surprise that I think the ball has been dropped. Yet I?m really en

 

I formerly posted in Resource. I no longer do because it tends to be full of speculation at best and people treating collective fanon as fact at worst rather than actual canon discussion. Plus more socialization than content. This is, I guess, appropriate to what it's there for.

Yes, Lit spends a lot of time discussing how various sources fit together. That's part of what it's there for. Since it bans what-if threads, a lot of discussion along those lines has to go elsewhere.

Resource would be more interesting to me if more of the discussion involved what various more obscure EU sources have to say about characters, or the challenges of trying to write in a way compliant with EU. I have no desire, however, to force that forum into my own ideal image of it.

 

I have another suggestion to offer...but brace yourselves... it's pretty radical.

We've talked a lot about increasing the level of moderation. But that's going to necessitate a lot more time for the current mods, and a lot more work for them. We've also talked about having the mods participate more often in threads...again that's going to take more time.

We've also talked about the fact that maybe part of what some people view as a problem is caused by the demographics in Lit. We all know that Lit is composed of mainly male posters.

My suggestion is to add another mod in Lit...but to have the new mod be a female, to add a "woman's touch" to the place. The problem, of course, is to find someone who would be great at the job; who is well-respected; AND would be willing to do it. I would think that Beccatoria would be great! I also think that Horsey would be wonderful, but I fear she may be too busy in EUC. Maybe Jedi Liz? Or maybe one of you knows of someone else who would be good?

Is this at all possible?

 

I don't think the demographics in Lit are a problem, actually, and I don't really believe in biological determinism of fan interests - it's just a shorthand for a difference in attitude. I myself am part of the minority population in Lit, after all.

 

sabs is a girl?!

 

If the mods we have feel they need another mod then awesome; I welcome their suggestions. If they decide that they need a mod with a certain attitude, that's cool too, although I do agree with sabs; I don't think that biological determinism is a big issue. It's broadly accurate short hand perhaps, but still short hand, and as sabs notes, there is a sizable minority of female posters in Lit. (ETA: just to confirm my earlier position; I'm personally satisfied with the number of mods we have in Lit, I just have no strong feelings either way on another one).

CoW - I'm very flattered by your vote of confidence in suggesting I'd be a good mod, but just to respond (and in no way trying to assume I'd ever be considered for the position!), I don't actually think I'd do a good job in that regard. My personal lines of what's acceptable (along the problems we've been discussing here) fall far further back than, say, Keralys', so I probably wouldn't be a good choice if the goal was to soften Lit's image, which again suggests it might not really be something that falls down along gender lines, but more ones of attitude. Added, of course, to the fact that the idea of being a mod scares the holy hell out of me and I'd probably flee in fear. RESPONSIBILITY NOES!