Amph Ghost in the Shell

The live action version of Ghost in the Shell is definitely a watered down version of the anime as it does not cover the scifi tropes of "do android dream of electric sheep," cyber security/hacking, the advancement of technology and its effect on society and governments agencies acting as "Big Brother." The 2017 version of Ghost in the Shell is pretty much plot for plot point the 2014 version of

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Robocop, where the lead character is mind wiped and then the brain is transferred into a cybernetic body to find crime/terrorism. As the film goes on, the main character discovers his/her true past and identity and then goes after the people that were responsible for the mind wipe and body transfer.

And therefore, it's a pretty mediocre action flick with stunning visuals.

I would agree that referring to ScarJo's character as "the major" instead of a specific name was a plot device to cover up the past and not so much to justify the alleged whitewashing. As for "the major" as a character, I thought it was too flat and robotic (as intended) which really didn't connect with the audience, well, at least with me. I wish they would have anthropomorphize "the major" more to create more empathy and emotion within the film. The film and "the major" was missing the human element. And what I mean by that is there really isn't any signs of humanity in "the major;" no fear of death of her own life or others close to her, or any real inner conflict or human spirit. I mean, there are many moments where ScarJo's characters gives blank stares to process data, but no real human emotions.

I suppose if there was a sequel, it could be written for the Puppet Master, but I would have preferred to be the plot and "villain" for this film rather than hold it off for a potential follow up film.

 

I'd say the "major" developed more of a human element as the film progressed but early on I'd agree did come across as a bit too flat yet not so flat as make for a point of interest. As was mentioned I think the film was lacking in some breathing space in its opening half hour or so.

 

Well, the film does drop the audience in the deep end of the pool and then moves them over to the shallow end as the film goes on. It's pretty much the reverse "Alice in Wonderland" story telling, where we get out of rabbit hole rather than going deeper into it. Which I feel is unfortunate for continuing the story.

And yes, while the movie developed more the human element of "the major," I felt it was way too little and way too late. I mean, I didn't feel any stakes in the movie. Just thinking about right now, I vaguely remember what the stakes were for the first half of the film.

 

I think the start of the film does kind of back up my point that a sequel would be difficult. At that point its working on a similar kind of level of Oshii's films but just lacks the subtle hand needed to give the characters/story a strong interest. When the majors origin story really kicks in though we move into less subtle more typical drama that the film has a much better time dealing with.

It does I think have its moments and where it breaks free of that more workmanlike US blockbuster style(which in itself makes it a worthwhile viewing for me) but never manages to entirely and as a result is most successful when its dealing with material that works with that style, less "what does it mean to be human?" and more "searching for my lost family".

 

Yeah, I think the movie tries to balance the original manga/anime with US blockbuster type of films, but in the end I feel it hurts the final overall.

I really hoped for a thought provoking film; perhaps something on the original The Matrix film where it's both an action packed film with a very good amount of scifi elements and Alice In Wonderland moments.

 

I tend to think Oshii's two anime films are a lot more thought provoking than the Matrix personally that's more a very well made heroic sci fi actioner without a great deal behind it which I think is a lot of why the sequels fell flat when trying to focus on that aspect more. I'm not really surprised this film wasn't operating on Oshii's kind of level though, to expect that from a big US blockbuster without a powerful director behind it would be asking a lot.

I don't really like to make definitive judgements on films that show a bit more ambition after one viewing(probably going to have to wait for the home release though) but my feeling is its not as well made as the original Matrix overall being a bit more cluttered and clunky. It does I think show flashes of being something more, the design work really is excellent(often very original beyond your typical sci fi clinches)and the director does have a supprisingly(never seen Snow White and the Huntsman) strong eye for visuals plus I tend to think Johansson and Binoche are better actors than the Matrix leads(although the villain is no Hugo Weaving) bringing more edge to the drama when it does fall into focus.

 

You missed Reindeer Jesus.

 

I dug the movie because I love seeing an anime adaptation where it takes the stylistic flourishes full on and makes a sci-fi tech noir anime film out of it as opposed to just stealing and cribbing bits and pieces. there's so much CGI this is a borderline animated film anyway (and I mean that as a good thing) Although the plot seems to be a lot of nonsense to get from one action scene to the next, and her crew is a bunch of nobodies aside from robo-eyes guy, and the Evil Corporation behidn it all is pretty standard, but it looks grand, has some awesome beats (Geisha Bot gone haywire is awesome) and I quite like ScarJo's performance in it. Yes, it's stoic but that's kind of the point and she does show more as it goes on. As for the character herself

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I thought it was kind of clever that they took a Asian woman and slapped her brain into ScarJo's body because it adds another layer of control, that they're trying to wipe away the ID of who she was originally. Very much Robocop style trying to erase the person in the machine but the person emerges. Not a original or profound notion in sci-fi but it works for the story. Very simplistically, it's not as if it's saying "whitewashing good!" but "whitewashing bad used to control this poor woman and erase who she was by making her ScarJo and destroying who she was before". Ultimately, Major, basically, is a deformed and mutilated version of who the woman once was but her "Ghost" rises from the "shell".

The one anime cliche I could have done without was the Seemingly All Evil Mastermind at the start is really just a misunderstood loner like Major. but I really dug his stuttering / glitching speech pattern and he was legitimately weird and freaky at the start at least.

 

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They could have made exactly the same "point" such as it was, with a Filipino woman plopped into the middle of Japan. This was entirely about "whitewashing good" and Stateside, it's getting the box office returns that deserves.

 

This just in: opinionated man has opinion

 

You are dealing somewhat with the realties of Hollywood of course in that a $100 million blockbuster is always going to be made to cast a pretty well known star. In that respect this film is dealing with the larger issue of lack of such east Asian stars although beyond Hollywood favouring white actors for mass appeal I think you can also put this somewhat down to the strength of the Japanese and more recently Chinese cinema markets, many big Chinese names who were building a following in Hollywood returned home(Zhang Ziyi for example although I remember the Japanese being none to impressed at her being cast in Memories of a Geisha) rather than trying to build there names further in the west.

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Working within those realties I think this film was a lot more conscious of the issues of racial casting than the majority of Hollywood productions are. Beyond as was mentioned earlier in this thread the Majors character having reasons for not looking Japanese it did obviously address the switch in ethnicity and its impact on the character. Whilst switching between a Japanese and Filipino body might have provided somewhat of a similar effect for Japanese audiences really even for them I think the switch between Japanese and American is much more obvious and is a heck of a lot more obvious for the rest of the world

Sorry Jabba but as I said earlier I think this is a classic case of journalists desperate to be "offended" to have something to write about that would get them some extra attention and a lot of the public desperate for the ego boost of being offended as well without really considering the situation or showing the attention to the wider issue(white/US centric nature of Hollywood as a whole). This to me is the kind of reaction that only serves to undermine the very issues these people claim to represent as it makes them that much easier to dismiss by those opposed or indeed more specifically for Hollywood to shy away from it, they can't be too impressed that a script that was actually quite sensitive on the subject ended up being massively attacked and likely damaging the box office significantly.

If you were looking to make a negative amount about Hollywood in general from this film I would say its more than when you rise above a certain budget you do seem to be trapped within certain constraints. I'd say this film did do rather more than is typical to break beyond the modern blockbuster formula but that does perhaps make the respects that it confirmed to said formula more obvious.

 

New Ghost In The Shell anime tv show announced

I have not seen much of the existing tv series aside from a few scenes on youtube.

 

You should fix that. If you don't see anything else you should watch the original film, but the tv anime Stand Alone Complex is also pretty good.

It's getting the box office returns it deserves because the the villains were bad, and most of the characters were done poorly as well. Not only that but one of the antagonists was a blend of three different antagonists from the franchise and he has minuscule depth to his character. Frankly, there was just too much going on plot wise and the film suffered for it because it couldn't devote the time to thoroughly develop some of the stuff presented.1

Not to mention that you basically only saw Aramaki, Togusa, Batou, and the Major. Not to mention some random person who has never appeared in the franchise before and had more lines that established characters in the franchise. Especially Togusa.

Aside from the world presented being decidedly cyber-punk I found myself wondering if this movie could have been used as a script for any other franchise and thought that it could work for a Blade Runner movie where the Major was a replicant.

 

The villain was definitely a bit of a simplistic cliché but we've loads those in films that have made a ton of cash in the US and really his role within the film was pretty limited. Kuze though was I'd say pretty well developed, somewhat Hollywood streamlined but he had a decent motivation/background and a good deal of character to him. I'd say the real issues the film has in the US is firstly that the anime was simply never THAT popular(similar issue with Tron Legacy IMHO) and secondly the "white washing" negativity. To get past those I think it would have needed to be of very high quality rather than IMHO patchy(and as you say a bit overstuffed) with some interesting aspects to it. It does look like its doing considerably better outside the US though and hasn't opened in China and Japan yet.

 

His cycle was more or less, they stole my life I must kill them but hey they stole your life too! Then later, "Hey Motoko, let's slip away into the code and live on... some how.... that's not explained.... but not the net because that'd be too much like the original film." I mean, sure Motoko and Kuze had a history in the lawless zone but really what was their attachment beyond that?

But yeah, the a glaring issue with the film was too many plot points that weren't well developed.

 

I'd say the first part of that sounds like decent enough motivation to me and was I think sold pretty well, Hollywood has been throwing out characters much simpler than that(TFA being a good example) for years and making a ton of money from it. The second I'd agree is one of the issues the film had, besides the Major/Kuze origin story it introduced several other elements that weren't fleshed out that well. Personally I think the whole idea of the major losing touch with her humanity was something Hollywood was always going to struggle with, that needs a subtler hand than your typical blockbuster framework typically offers.

Again though I think the real issue is that the anime's actual mainstream popularity isn't really that great in the US, its often mentioned in certain circles on the net and has a lot of admires in the industry I expect but compared to your typical blockbuster tie ins isn't nearly so well known by the man on the street. To get past that and the negative whitewashing stuff it would IMHO have needed to be great cinema, a lot better than your typical Marvel stuff(that's often very clunky with poorly developed elements itself) that has a pretty low bar to get over quality wise.

 

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Casting Scarlett Johansson as Major in the real world context is the studios saying "whitewashing good" because they think they can make more money with a pretty white actress. (misguided that opinion may be) In the context of the story, having the original asian woman have her ID erased and put into a Scarlett Johansson looking body to try to take away her life is the movie saying "whitewashing bad". The movie is explicitly saying that it's an awful thing that happened to her. This is not good that she's running around as Scarlett Johansson because the (predominately white) Evil Corporation stole her life, gave her drugs to erase her memories of who she was before and turned her into a white woman Scarlett Johansson looking robot.

 

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Sure. But you know what? By your own admission the narrative itself calls no attention to the body horror of the racial swap or the discordant body image. It just focuses in a very generic sense on the loss of identity. Whereas everyone understands the real world message about the value of whiteness versus anything else. One is a whisper, the other is screaming loud and clear.

 

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Seems basically you want the film to present things in a very straight ahead fashion, you look at Oshii's films and this rarely takes place with scenes like the barge ride/montage bringing up the majors body image in relation to the identical women she see's in the window and the shop mannequins. I actually felt the sections on the majors background were as close as this film got to that more subtle style but for me the effect is very clearly that the switch in ethnicity plays into the drama.

Ironically I felt that this film actually mirrored the issues that a great many feature length anime adaptions of manga/TV series in feeling overstuffed trying to cram in a large an extended world into two hours.

 

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I don't care whether they were on-the-nose about it or more subtle. But the reviews from people in this thread have been basically universal in saying that they avoided addressing the racial implications in any fashion. You can't simultaneously argue that something was an intentional furtherance of a film's themes and that the film never actually addresses what you're talking about. If you have some differing take on how race itself was important to the film, such that it justified a white actress, rather than just being coincidentally rolled into a plot the story was already pursuing in other ways, and could have been achieved with equal efficacy using an Asian actress, I'd love to hear it.

 

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Have they? and have you seen the film? my review such as it was stated that the issue was clearly addressed. You have the Major visiting her mother and obviously developing suspicions that she's her daughter and being shocked by it to the degree she backs off without telling her said suspicions. You do of course need to balance this with the rest of the plot, to have the major more effected by a change in ethnicity than discovering her and he boyfriend where kidnapped, had there brains transplanted into robots and then there memories supressed would be a little unrealistic wouldn't it? not to mention of course that you don't want to be implying anything negative about her original ethnicity not just on moral grounds but because it wouldn't make much sense in the setting either.

To me that was an issue well dealt with in the correct manner, not ignored but also not unrealistically grand standing. Again I think the core plot around the Major/Kuze and there origins was the most successful aspect of the film, its more the material around that which felt somewhat clunky/underdeveloped/on the nose at points.

 

$124,000,000

It opened in a few other countries.

 

I'm guessing Japan and China will really decide whether it gets a decent take or not although I spose the budget isn't quite at the level of your typical mega blockbuster.

If they did carry it on honestly I would prefer they dropped it back to more the $50 million budget range, at that level I don't think it would be as constrained stylistically.

 

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That's my reading of all their reviews, and frankly yours as well. I've not seen the film yet.

But let me break down my perspective a little bit. Visiting with someone and finding out that you are actually their kidnapped children is inherently traumatic. Hugely, earth-shatteringly so. You don't need to add any more parts onto it at all. So if you're going to, you should probably take some time out to address how those additional elements are shocking or horrifying. If you don't, why add them?

From what I've gathered from you and others, the film never took this additional step. It needn't have insulted anyone's culture in order to do so. Just the clash between one's own body image and the body they inhabit would be enough. For instance, people find the experience of vitiligo very distressing without thinking that actual white people are somehow monstrous or ugly. Just the idea of "not recognizing yourself in the mirror" is a classic invocation of disgust/alienation that everyone understands, regardless of whether the thing in the mirror is conventionally uglier or prettier than one is used to. There are a thousand ways they could have illustrated this, or even went further with it. That's why it seems much more to me that they just used this plot element to explain away their desire to cast a white woman than having actually intended in the beginning to weave the race change thoughtfully into the narrative.

One final note. Why not have the Major be blonde-haired Daniel Craig? Or what about Chris Pratt? It's just a cybernetic body, after all, so what would a sex change matter? Further, male stars have always been more bankable than female movie stars. So why wasn't this done, if it was all about profit? I'd ask you to consider why people apparently thought that having a female body was apparently so much more essential to the role than her ethnicity, when the same logic applies to both.