LMM's decision: dealing with the

Discussion in 'Communications' started by legacyAccount, Sep 10, 2002.

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  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    The reality is that no one (members or moderators) are above the rules. It's reality. You don't have to accept it, but it's fact.

    You may not like the the decision reached, but there would have been no decision reached to begin with if moderators were above the rules.
  2. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, they aren't above the rules. They are however above enforcement of those rules.

    Oh wait, I forgot you threw us a bone with this LMM thing. Gee, I stand corrected.

    You guys like to say you're like cops. Well this whole thing smacks of the Blue Wall. Oh sure, in theory they are not above the law, but how often do you really think they are prosecuted or even investigated for non-felony crimes? Ever see a cop give another cop a speeding ticket?

  3. AmazingB Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2001
    star 7
    "The reality is that no one (members or moderators) are above the rules. It's reality. You don't have to accept it, but it's fact."

    That all goes back to my point that it's all in perception. If people perceive that mods are above the rules, then perhaps something should be done to correct that perception. That'll solve so many problems.

    Amazing.
  4. DarthDarkDart Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 1
    "We already know we are not above the rules (or at least I know that, speaking for myself), and things have been dealt with."

    I think the membership as a whole would like to see specific proof of that, because as far as I know, there is none.
  5. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    I agree with AmazingB.
    He states his case most logic'ly.











    "No more rhyming, I mean it!"
    "Anybody want a peanut?"
  6. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    That all goes back to my point that it's all in perception. If people perceive that mods are above the rules, then perhaps something should be done to correct that perception. That'll solve so many problems.

    I point you to the very first LMM decision post, a two day ban and one week demotion. But that was deemed unacceptable by some posters.
  7. AmazingB Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2001
    star 7
    "I point you to the very first LMM decision post, a two day ban and one week demotion. But that was deemed unacceptable by some posters."

    That's because it took four days to come to what most people thought was a pretty simple decision. It's things like that that cause people to have such negative opinions in the first place.

    Amazing.
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    That's because it took four days to come to what most people thought was a pretty simple decision. It's things like that that cause people to have such negative opinions in the first place.


    I don't understand how people can expect decisions to come so quickly. People have lives outside the JC, and as the case was, this was particularly unfortunate timing, as Nathan and Padme Bra have both been away more than usual lately. Neither moderators nor managers are authorized to make those decisions, and the only administrator around consistently was Carter. Unless you want to ask people to always be here for a job that pays nothing and demands quite a bit, delays will happen. I don't see a way around that.

    Perhaps the way things work in these events (and in general) needs to be explained better, which brings us back to needing better all around communication. Change the perception to better suit reality.

  9. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    It was actually two days and I didn't hear from all of the admins till Monday evening.
  10. SRB_Jedi_Knight Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Again, Is someone going to step up and address the issue of his abusing Mod powers? I again am speaking up because this issue I feel is being over looked.

  11. Dracmus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    hm...i have been reading this but before i put up my thoughts let me give an equevelance between irc status and here:

    voiced users are about equal to VIP status. channel ops are equal to mods. local and global ircops are equal to managers. admins (all the diffrent types) are...well..admins.

    now my 2 cents: i have been on irc for 2 years, and i have been a channel op to a local ircop. those positions come with responsibility. if someone did what LMM did only once they would have been warned/banned. if they were repeat offenders, they would be permantly demoted or demoted for a long time. i know there is a diffrence between here and irc...but that kind of behavior was not tolerated on irc. i saw it happen to several people. the reason we banned/demoted: nobody wanted a war between operators...it freaked out the regular users and hurt trust. sometimes the channels were shutdown as a result. the only power that the offender would have was over the channels the person created/registered. they were not trusted with any power. one time a ircop started abusing his power and nearly all the people that he didn't like were banned. unfortunatly, the ban was a domain ban so he banned dozens of other users that were innocent..he was never given power again. he couldn't be trusted. he was supposed to set an example but he used a combination of flooding, flamming, ego and rudeness to nearly cripple the server.

    i thank god that that can't happen here. this is not a bash on LMM. it is simply my 2 cents.
  12. AmazingB Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2001
    star 7
    "I don't understand how people can expect decisions to come so quickly."

    I said it earlier and I'll say it again: there should be no need to wait for an adimistrator. If a regular member commits a bannable offense, there's not a discussion. He or she is banned as soon as a mod finds out about it. Mods should be treated the exact same way. Anything else furthers the impression that mods are better than regular users, and if you want to convince us otherwise, changing that rule is a great start.

    Amazing.
  13. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Well, as good or bad a change it might be, it is academic because of the current coding. I'm not saying it's impossible to change, just that it's not possible under the current system.
  14. MrEmh Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 2
    I agree that the time between that a vip, mod, manager or admin commits an offense and the instant the punishment takes effect should be shortened, tremendously so. It was a farce last December when PreacherBoy acted like a jackaninny and it took us two weeks to demote him. That's just a bunch of malarky if you ask me. I have never been a fan of the waiting period.

    And who's to blame, at least partially? The damnable Leadership Council. What exactly do they do again except provide another layer of bureacracy that the ModSquad has to wade through to make a decision? In this user's opinion, the LC should be relegated to board wide decision makers, not mod-judges. Let the managers control the mods' and the active admins control everyone's punishment. The rank-and-file need to be responsible for each other; the LC takes away the indepenent nature of the ModSquad and demeans the "responsability" given to it.

  15. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Interesting thoughts. It is true that under the current system, there was little anyone at manager level or lower could do about the situation, save post our thoughts here and in the Mod Squad.
  16. MrEmh Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 2
    Maybe we should just let me redo the system. Worked for a time in the EU Senate, back in the day. [face_devil]
  17. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    If a regular member commits a bannable offense, there's not a discussion. He or she is banned as soon as a mod finds out about
    it. Mods should be treated the exact same way. Anything else furthers the impression that mods are better than regular users.


    The administration treats mod infractions separately because they are in a higher authority to restore order in JC. That in and of itself separates mods from regular users. All moderator infractions are discussed within the Mod Squad, and the discipline is rendered by the Leadership Council.
  18. MrEmh Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 2
    But that takes too much time during which the mod under review still edits, posts, locks, bans. They should be at least knocked to VIP until a decision is reached, then either left their or demoted further and/or banned. There should be an immediate visible sign of action from the Administration, followed quick on its heels by a punishment.

    The present system has only shown inherant failures and no good in the past year.
  19. AmazingB Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2001
    star 7
    "Well, as good or bad a change it might be, it is academic because of the current coding."

    It's my understanding that managers can ban mods. There had to have been a manager online at some point prior to the LMM decision.

    "The administration treats mod infractions separately because they are in a higher authority to restore order in JC. That in and of itself separates mods from regular users."

    And that, in and of itself, is a tremendous problem. There should be as little distinction between mods and regular members as possible.

    "All moderator infractions are discussed within the Mod Squad, and the discipline is rendered by the Leadership Council."

    And I feel that needs to be changed. I have stated as much already in this thread. At this point we seem to be going in circles. I just hope someone is at least listening.

    Amazing.
  20. farraday Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Depending on the severity of the infraction I think an immediate VIPing might be a good step.
  21. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    It's my understanding that managers can ban mods. There had to have been a manager online at some point prior to the LMM decision.


    It is possible for a manager to ban a moderator, but it requires demotion first to do that. In the end, that's probably not a big deal to most people.

    Just clarifying :).

  22. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    I agree with Bane. Whe users get 24 or 48 hour bans it's to cool them off. Give them time to think about what they did so they don't do it again. Do the same with mods. Take awat their powers until a decision is reached. Think of it as a cop who get accused of something. They get suspended or relegated to desk duty. If they're cleared they get they old post back. If they're not cleared then they get let go.

    Seems a bit hypocritical not to.
  23. Qui Gon Jim23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    In that same line of thinking, had lmm been demoted to VIP immediately after the SPAM incident, then a good bit of ammunition used against him now would not have been available since he would not have been able to reopen the thread and post the now infamous "I'm important here, are you?" post.

    Immediate demotion to VIP makes sense if there is credible evidence.
  24. epic Ex Mod

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7

    I can see the merits in Managers handing out demotions to Mods if need be, without prior discussion in the Mod Squad. The liklihood of such an incident occurring is no doubt minimal, and it would only work with Managers and offending Mods (not offending Managers, for example), but I could see the advantages, just in case another incident like this should occur.

    But it would only work in situations where the Mod has clearly abused their powers, and even so, I still think dealing with the issue via PM is still the best method.

    Something like -- Manager sees Mod abusing TOS, PMs him about it first, situation is hopefully resolved. If the situation can't be resolved, then further action, including demotion, is then possible -- without discussion in the Mod Squad, if the incident is serious enough. Then, once the demotion has taken place, and no further problems can develop, discussion can occur in the Mod Squad concerning the issue.


  25. toochilled Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    //Bangs head on wall.

    LMM broke the rules. He was punished more harsly then a normal user would be.

    Anyone advocating further punishment due to the attitude of LMM is really asking for something quite exceptional. What you seemt o be expressing is that there should be a predesigned framework within which mods and staff must act. A framework more restrictive then the one used for the normal members.
    This brings to light an inherant contradiction in many of your arguments. You claim that mods should not be 'above the law' that they should not be treated differently, yet at the same time you are calling for them to be treated differently.

    What ever happened to freedom of speech?

    ''Freedom of speech means that you support speech--particularly that speech that you disagree with--otherwise you don?t belive in freedom of speech, you believe in what you believe and then you?re a fascist. It?s just semantics at this point, there?s no theorizing at this point. Get a dictionary.''
    -Bill Hicks.
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