LMM's decision: dealing with the

Ditto. I actually had a hard time speaking out against his actions publicly, because I thought (note past tense) that he was a decent guy.

My sentiments exactly.

Right now, though, I think this is a lesson that should be taught to not only LMM, but all the members of the Mod Squad and the JC as a whole. It's a solemn reminder that nobody here's above the rules.

GO 'CLONES!

 

Putting someone in the stocks, or taking away their executive bathroom key does not solve attitute problems, it makes more because it creates bitterness and resentment.


Most of us never saw an attitude problem in lmm until he became a moderator. So in a sense, if his attitude problem is caused by his being a moderator, then perhaps the solution would be to "take away his key to the executive bath" as it were.

 

Gimer,
Just because we are not admins or mods doesn't mean we don't have input in the decisions that are made dealing with the JC. Yes, our opinions do not count as much, but we should still have a say (even if that say is disregarded anyway).

And just because a punishment will cause bitterness does not mean it should not be handed out. That is definitely the wrong way to approach this situation. If someone can't handle their punishment and would only create more problems, they should never have been a mod or admin in the first place.

{Edited to clarify who I was responding to)

 

---

[color=blue]Not to nitpick, but there was the "joke" banning of AYBABTU... [/color][hr][/blockquote]I understand that, and I've spoken with [b]AYBABTU[/b] and the other mods at length on that particular issue, but [i]that is not what we're talking about[/i]. We're not going to backtrack and start bringing up random grievances. We're looking at [i]this instance[/i]. Let's focus on this instance, and finding the right solution to [i]this instance[/i]. Then, if there's any other stuff that you feel you want to cover again, we can work on that. In [b]this[/b] case (as I specifically said to begin with) there was no "abuse" of power. Flaunting? Yeah. I'm going to mention all of that when I get my response all written up (and we ARE still discussing this in the Mod Squad).

Vertical

 

I'm not looking for humilation. I am looking for two things

1) Administrative accountability

The Administration (as represented by Carter) doesn't really think anything was done wrong besides a little spamming. The Administration is dead wrong though. Because the Administration refuses to set standards for the mods and enforce them, we continually get these kinds of situations. Why they won't nip the problems in the bud is beyond me.

2) Definative Action
A slap on the wrist and a stern talking to is not going to stop anyone from doing what LMM did. Banning him for a month, firing him from his mod and staff jobs and then telling the other mods "You represent the administration. Don't screw around or you're next" will.

 

Well put, AYBABTU. We aren't on a witch hunt. We aren't looking for humiliation. We are looking for accountability.

What good would it do for the admins to read these threads?

They should be making an unbiased opinion, which would mean reading the original thread, and the spam thread where the problems happened. Not mine or anyone elses opinion on what went wrong or what should happen.

Without reading these threads, I don't think they are getting an accurate picture of what we are unhappy with. This is obvious, simply due to the punishment handed out. Most of us feel it was totally unacceptable, and that is due probably in large part to them not reading our threads, and not understanding our concerns.

EDIT: quote in italics.

 

We're not going to backtrack and start bringing up random grievances. We're looking at this instance.

I believe we do need to look at these instances, because after a time random grievances become a pattern of grievances. Most of the people in these threads would concede that -- though a bit soft -- lmm was given a suitable punishment for spamming. What this thread is focusing on is the pattern of abuse and arrogance that has been slowly building since lmm was made staff/moderator and eventually led up to the spamming incident.

 

My point isn't that his past issues aren't relevant, only that we need to establish what really the problem is in THIS instance before we move on to bringing up past problems.

Vertical

 

Agreed Cetera. After all, this is Communications where we do try to communicate with the administration.

 

Just because we are not admins or mods doesn't mean we don't have input in the decisions that are made dealing with the JC. Yes, our opinions do not count as much, but we should still have a say (even if that say is disregarded anyway).

I beg to differ (partially, at least). Yes, I agree that we do have a say. But many moderators will take the time to listen to us if we have a complaint or a suggestion. I expect very little out of a moderator, but keeping the peace and listening are key. Even if they do not always agree with what we have to say, I'm still satisfied that my voice was heard.

Part of the "problem" you project is that many members don't bother communicating with the mods for various reasons. It's a shame, for those silent types may have some of the best ideas for the board, perhaps due to fear of them. I don't fear the moderators. I respect them (for the most part), but I certainly don't fear them.

GO 'CLONES!

 

Qui_Gon_Jim23, it was his attitude that led to the spamming and flaming. So in reality, his attitude is the problem, and the spamming comes from that.



...and a Jango

 

JGM, I was saying that we SHOULD still voice our opinions. I do think that we are heard, but I also recognize that we are not the decision makers and that all we can do is communicate our problems. And that is all we can ask.

My only problem is that sometimes it seems people's opinions and proposed solutions are ignored to sweep certain problems under the rug, and that I do not agree with. However, that should not keep people from voicing their concerns.

 

I suppose such problems should be addressed to an ACer. Their function is to decrease the rift between the MS and the JC populace, and they can bring up an issue in the AC.

GO 'CLONES!

 

After reading all these posts I am at a loss for words to describe my thoughts. I believe anyone who is in a position of authority automatically has different standards of conduct expected of him/her. That would include spamming, attitude and anything else that was afore mentioned.

If you are in a position of leadership then you lead by example. I you don't want other users on the boards acting a certain way then as a person in a leadership position you must maintain higher standards for yourself, and must be held to higher standards by your peers.

In the real world I have been a supervisor in the private sector, as well as in the military. In order to be in a position of authority you must have respect. In order to have respect you must gain it, for it is not freely given. In doing what he has LMM has hurt any respect for himself from the users he may have once had because he has violated their sense of trust in the leadership provided on these boards.

Even I as a Fanforce City Rep strive to meet higher standards than other users. In the way I present myself on the boards. I would expect that from anyone in a position such as LMM.

I would personally hope that he is demoted permanently as there is no place for this type of behavior on the boards. This should also stand as future punishment for all Mods and Admins, etc. We must hold ourselves to a higher standard.

This is just my $0.02

Thank you

 

Voicing a concern is good. I don't think anyone is questioning that. That IS what this forum is for.
It's about how it is done and whether it is really being done for the good of all, or whether there are personal agendas which are making things seem bigger than they really are.

And D_A, your status matters as much as LMM's does. He wasn't saying that as a MODERATOR his opinion made yours not matter, he said as the staff artist, his opinion did matter.

What I see you saying is that in your position you need to make sure this is taken care of... -which IS your job as a council member. In which case you also need to be completely unbiased in what you are saying.
If you can't be completely unbiased, then you should be removed from the trial.

What you are doing in the name of the whole board should be held to the same standards as any other TFN staff member, or are you saying you are doing this -not in the name of the boards?

 

Qui_Gon_Jim23, it was his attitude that led to the spamming and flaming. So in reality, his attitude is the problem, and the spamming comes from that.

I'm confused, I thought that was what I had just said.

Were you agreeing with me then?

And to Vertical:

I agree that the recent incident is what created this whole debate, I merely feel that the spamming incident is but a symptom of a greater problem, so I believe that these past grievances are relevant.

 

SRB_Jedi_Knight: As a former CR, I fully agree and applaud your post.

GO 'CLONES!

 

"What you are doing in the name of the whole board should be held to the same standards as any other TFN staff member, or are you saying you are doing this -not in the name of the boards?"

I am acting as a concerned member. My AC "status" entitles me to nothing more. And what standards am I violating by pressing a valid issue?

AYBABTU?

 

*Sigh*
As I mentioned earlier, no one here is out to get LMM. We simply want the mods to be accountable for all their actions. There is no personal bias in this argument, and as such no one should be "removed" from the trial. This is about the matter at hand, not a personal vendetta. No one wants LMM's head on a platter; we simply want a precedent set so that the administration can hold it's own people accountable for their actions.

 

I have but a simple question. numerous times in the threads on this isssue, LMM has been accused of Flaming people. Not everyone seems to be in agreement that it was flaming, but enough people DO agree that it was to the point where that issue needs to be addressed in the same manner the spam was. I would like to see the Flaming addessed. The attitude problems and so forth are the root cause, but don't pretend that the only real grevence people had was a little spam.

As to past issues, I agree with Vert that we should concentrate on the issue at hand first, BUT, it was repeatedly brought up that this issue is just the latest in a series of situations in which LMM has set a bad example and perhaps has even Spammed/Flamed/What have you. That SHOULD have had relevence to his punishment in the other thread, but more importantly it SHOULD have relevence here, because here we are talking essentially about his fitness to be an mod.

 

SRB_Jedi_Knight makes a good point. Many people are going to have trouble respecting LMM after this if he remains a mod. If he was demoted so that he had to earn back his modship this wouldn't be a problem.

 

Apparently accountability is the eighth deadly sin for mods.

What any mod should do, besides accept responsibility for their actions, is to take their lumps and learn from their mistakes and strive not to do it again, for they should know the consequences the second time around would be more serious.

GO 'CLONES!

 

Well, I guess I'll throw in two cents:

As far as attitude goes, I think there are other mods who are far worse than anything LMM has shown. It seems like a lot of people are out to just try and make an example out of him.

There have been a few occasions where I have treated certian admins or mods with nothing but respect and have had nothing but animosity and hostility returned. Granted, these actions were over PM, and if they had been public, I do not think the situation would be actionless.

Obviously, some type of policy needs to be taken into affect regarding a moderators conduct or attitude. I also think we need to see far less mods telling a particular user to "take his problem to PM" or "to the AC" or somesuch copout, as perhaps the mod they have a problem with isn't willing to listen anyways.

It's been said before, and I'll say it again, why leave a bad moderator at their position? Really, how many mods/admins have ever been forced into demotion? I can think of one. That's quite a track record they have for appointing new people, don't you think?

 

You know i agree, some mods have done far worse than LMM (though i am noway on his side in this situation)
But what i can say is that many of the same people that critisize him, are the same people who show arrogance on the forums. Just because they have been here alot longer, they feel their opinion and status is worth far more than that of newbies.
I wont name names, because i know what will happen if i do.
This hypocricy in critisizing LMM, is what bugs me more than anything he did.
----
-Comic Book Guy

 

Can someone tell me more about this 'joke' banning of AYBABTU? I have not heard anything about it. Bye the way, (other than sucking at the stock market game) on a list of the users with the most positive input, intelligent posting habits, and level-headedness among other things AYBABTU would be in the top 5 if not a big fat #1.