LMM's decision: dealing with the

Vert's post sounds reasonable. And LMM will be watched like a hawk, so now it's really upto him if he wants to keep mod status. He'll either adjust the attitude or get demoted. That sounds fair.

 

I agree. This drama has run it's course I think. LMM has done something wrong and has been punished. He is only human (really??) and has paid for his mistake. Give the guy a break and let by-gones be by-gones.

 

Only human? But his "hole persona is based on an exclusive elit group known as the Sith"!!

 

I can't believe this. I just can't.

Well, I guess I can. LMM is to be lot off the hook, but with the proverbial sword hanging above his head. He abused his power. He flamed posters. He opened a thread to get the last word in, and to jeer at us all, and then promptly locked it again. He blamed his behavior on his being a sith.

Can any of you mods honestly say to yourself that you are doing the right thing? How is that not an abuse of power? It was skipped right over in Vert's post. Why wasn't his flaming addressed? Why not his blaming his actions on his Sith identity? Why not abusing his thread locking privleges to mock and deride us?

DID YOU LISTEN TO ANYTHING WE SAID??? AT ALL??? EVEN JUST A LITTLE???

Why do the posters constantly have to beat their heads against the wall, just to try to get some fairness here at the JC? Why, why, why? I am dismayed, I am apalled, I am depressed.

Look, I don't hate the guy. I pity him. He doesn't know how to face life on his feet, he doesn't know how to be mature, he doesn't know how to be responsible. Will he eventually give us a heartfelt apology? Probably not, but you never know. Stranger things have happened. But he hasn't taken responsibility for his actions, and you mods, the higher authority, haven't forced him too either.

Why should any of us be accountable for our actions? Why should we play by the rules? What good will it do us? Give us the moral high ground. I doubt now whether such a high ground can be found here any longer.

Vert, I appreciate what you are trying to do. But I think somewhere along the line you got sidetracked, either by too much reading, or possibly other mods wanting to drop it. You fell short, friend. You just basically validated the first pronouncement, and said that only his spamming will be dealt with, and while you really don't like the other stuff he did, you won't do anything about it.

I can't help but think what Paradox, or Jasman, or even ObiWannaCracker would have thought? Would they be proud of our mods right now, today, at this very moment? Would they have sheltered one of their own. I know Jasman wouldn't. He was a big proponent of take responsibility for yourself, and what you do. Paradox was surprising adept at understanding the issues, and seeing what was needed. I don't think he would have gone along with this either. And ObiWannaCracker? Perhaps he saw this day coming, and got out while the getting was good.

With so many people saying so much about how this was wrong, why is nothing being done about it? Over 90% of the regular posters in this thread thought additional, quite possibly severe, action should be taken. Why are you ignoring us?


Darth_AYBABTU, I want to thank you for your continuing effort and support of us these past several days. I honestly don't know how you have born it. You have had a masterful restraint on your self-control. I purposefully stepped away for a while, because if I had not, I would have flamed LMM, several mods, and in general ranted a lot. I think what has happened here is atrocious, and has undermined the authority of the admins. I started the original thread, and I took it as a personal affront when LMM posted his final post, mocking everything we had tried to bring attention to, and claiming the thread as his own, much as Algore claims to have invented the internet.

But you, who were personally flamed by LMM in his closing post, have remained active, and reasonable. You have gotten angry, but not let it get the best of you. If there was any justice on this board, you would be made a mod for your actions these past several days. Certain mods say you have a vendetta against LMM, but it isn't true. You know the difference between right and wrong, and you don't shirk what you don't want to hear. I respect you, sir, and I salute you. The JC could not have a better member for its AC, weak as it is.

 

Will one of the mods please create a poll, asking all members whether or not they feel that LMM should have further punishment for flaming, for abusing his powers (locking and unlocking threads so he gets the last word), for blaming his actions on being a Sith, and for mocking our legitimate concerns and our right to air them in public?

See how many actual, real, regular posters agree with this. See where everyone stands. Hopefully it will give you the backbone and support needed to make the right decision for once.

 

"I mean jeez....you'd think LMM had attacked your mother by the way some of you are going on. Just ease down and take a step back for a moment, please!"

But why is it that you think some people keep "going on?" It's not because anyone has any particular vendetta against LMM. It's because things like this seem to happen with relative frequency, yet nothing changes. For the most part, the people who are posting in this thread are the same people who post whenever anything serious happens, speaking out against the administration. Yet nothing changes. Does anyone from the admin side ever step back and think the "drama-mongers" might be right? From what I've seen, it never seems like it. We're always told to "step back" and "put things in perspective" and other catchy phrases that amount to nothing more than copouts. It always seems like the admins are making a concerted effort to silence the vocal dissenters, rather than trying to listen to them and understand where they're coming from. Whether that's true or not, I can't say. But it is the perception, and perception counts for a whole hell of a lot, particularly on the internet.

Amazing.

 

So was anything ever going to get done about holding people, especially those in charge here, accountable for their actions?? Or were we going to let this turn into yet another "We're right because we run this place and you don't." thread??

Let me know when some progress is made, in the meantime, I'll watch paint dry.

 

I'll tell you what, though: Carter sure did a good job of dividing us by convincing someone to start a separate thread to talk about essentially the same issues, only to have the original locked within the same day by one of his lapdogs. How very Napoleonic.

 

Anyone up for an "Emergency Powers" vote? :\

 

I'll tell you what, though: Carter sure did a good job of dividing us by convincing someone to start a separate thread to talk about essentially the same issues, only to have the original locked within the same day by one of his lapdogs. How very Napoleonic.

Goodness. Do you honestly believe that kind of plotting goes on?

Ridiculous to the nth degree.

Here's a counter-question to the one posed earlier?

Does anyone actually step back and think that, just maybe, some (even many) admins do care and listen?

We're all people, and it is absolutely appalling that on September 10, 2002, people are making some of the most cynical comments imaginable about events that are nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I care very much about things here, and I do my damndest to do the right thing every time around. But goodness, seeing that kind of cynicism is ridiculous, and it just kills my and probably other admins' desire to help, a little bit at a time.

 

How about we give them to someone who will actually do something.

 

We're all people, and it is absolutely appalling that on September 10, 2002, people are making some of the most cynical comments imaginable about events that are nothing in the grand scheme of things.

The date has nothing to do with this issue. If you're trying to show us that the administration is not trying to derail things here, KnightWriter, then you certainly wouldn't have brought this up.

 

Divide? Every grievance that someone had was posted in the relevant thread, either in the decision one or here. The other thread had run its course. If you feel that thread needs to be reopened, let me know.

 

fine. so we all take a bit of a break, to reflect on the the events of 9/11..


but this issue will still be here on September 12th....

 

"Can any of you mods honestly say to yourself that you are doing the right thing?"

Yes, I honestly can. His infraction has been punished and amply so. People will always disagree on the severity of a punishment due it's subjective nature. If his actions are not corrected, harsher punishment will ensue. In this case the punishment will not be increased and the insensed users will not be satisfied until it is.
We are going to have to agree to disagree, I think.


"It's because things like this seem to happen with relative frequency, yet nothing changes."

But this time it has been well noted and action has been taken. Something has changed. Someone says "The mods don't act against their own!" but then follow up with "Their actions aren't severe enough!". Flawed logic.


"....only to have the original locked within the same day by one of his lapdogs."

Now I'm a lapdog!
I'm glad we could maintain a civil discussion on an adult level without resulting to name calling.

 

Flawed logic.

Not exactly. They're simply saying that mods don't act against their own properly, such as in this case.

 

We're all people, and it is absolutely appalling that on September 10, 2002, people are making some of the most cynical comments imaginable about events that are nothing in the grand scheme of things.

What? So on September 11 we're not allowed to argue or debate? Give me a break.

 

Well, this will hopefully be my last post on this subject, as it is clearly a dead horse. But I want to summarize my feelings on this issue.

Let me first say that I, and most of those who have contributed to this discussion, love the Jedi Council Forums. If we did not, we would not come here as often as we do and we would not take the time to develop all the relationships that we have. And we sure as hell would not have taken so much time and effort pressing this issue if we didn't love it. What could we possibly have to gain by getting our point across? Only a better JC, where mods, administrators, and staffers are accountable for their actions. What did we have to lose? We would simply continue with the status quo, where the appearance of impropriety and favoritism lurches on.

Well, we lost. The JC will continue much as it did before. A well-documented series of transgressions by a moderator will go unpunished, in the long-term. No message of any value has been sent, other than the message to all members that their concerns are invalid. Indeed, the spam was punished, but nothing was done to ensure among the community that arrogance, contempt, and abuse would not be tolerated by the Administration.

Before I address the substance of Vert's post, I want to call out some names. First is Carter. At the very least, he has bothered to contribute to this dicussion, where his words could be scrutinized and questioned. He is the only Administrator to do so, and one of only a very few moderators at all. Now, his every word betrayed a desire to brush this under the rug, be it in an effort to save face or other, but at least he came in and took his lumps. He was consistently wrong on all counts, and tried everything he could to undermine the seriousness of the situation, but at least he bothered to enter the fire zone.

Now to Vert. Vertical, you are one of only a handful of moderators here with whom I have dealt regularly, and I have always respected you and admired your capacity for reason. And there are others like you -- moderators who, as individuals, try to do their level best to improve the JC and the perceptoins of users. You are to be commended, and I thank you for your valuable input.

But as a whole, the Administration has failed miserably. MISERABLY. A superb opportunity to refute all sorts of notions about the ModSquad has been squandered. You have shown yourselves to be inept and unprincipled, when viewed as a whole. That is not to discount the efforts of individuals, but even they did not stand forth for what should be an intuitive principle. I am appalled and disgusted. But most of all, I am disheartened. You see, in the real world I will not associate with those who pass up principle and justice for appeasement and the status quo. I would not work for an employer who consistently protected wrongdoers and refused to be held accountable. I would not do it. And I will not on the internet either. The Administration has shown themselves, on the whole, to be disinterested in doing what is right. And that breaks my heart. Now on to a couple of items from Vert's post --

1. "The admin guidelines indicate that admins, mods, and staffers are to be held to a higher standard than regular members, should always act responsibly, should never be rude to members, and that we should never flaunt our authority."

2. "While the Guidelines outline what is and isn't acceptable behavior, the guidelines offer no specific help in terms of what, exactly, would be a suitable punishment for violating one or any of these guidelines."

Those statements contradict one another. Implicitly stated in the first quote is all the justification needed for removal -- "admins, mods, and staffers... should always act responsibly, should never be rude to members, and that we should never flaunt our authority." As soon as that guideline is violated, then the obvious action would be to remove the moderator. Th

 

Well said. I heartily agree with Aybabtu on this issue. You put into words what may of us feel, and in a much more eloquent and concise way. I thank you.

Rhett, in all the time I have known you, you never cease to amaze me.

 

I also agree in general with Darth_AYBABTU. I also hope that others in this discussion will follow his example and respond with similar intelligence (read: please refrain from redundant, disparaging or otherwise malicious rants).

~H~

 

<Undermines long post with random, yet not quite funny, comment>

AYBABTU, I try to believe you have the best interest of the JC at heart, but sometimes it's really hard. Yes, the admins need to be policed, but honestly do you think crucifying one every time they make a mistake is going to do anything but keep the rest of them from moderating?

The admins should be held to a higher standard. The admins shouldn't get away with everything. The admins should keep us lowly souls informed. The admins shouldn't have to deal with the specter of dishonorable discharge every time they make a decision.

This witch-hunt of yours is just getting silly.
Ignoring LMM's situation, exactly what is your design for the mod squad, other then throwing out everyone who ever makes a mistake. The mods are humans and, for those of you who forget what that means in this rather impersonal medium, are going to make mistakes.
Let me repeat that for the people sleeping off hangovers in the back.

The Mods will make mistakes.
I'd say it in Russian but I don't know Russian and it wouldn't change anything anyways.

If a mod makes a mistake you don't call them a jackbooted nazi and try to scalp them, you point it out then gleeful rub it in via PM and the odd social thread.
In almost every case the mistake is an accident, mea culpa, sorry, I'll do better next time. If it was spiteful then you go grabbing your posse and go trophy hunting.

'He has stepped beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior, and should be stripped of his position'?

Do be serious, or if you were, do be sensible, or if you thought you were, do be sober.

I think that about covers it. Feel free to demand my ass on a platter, I'm always willing to oblige a friend.

And that?s about as coherent as I get at 130 AM.


Edit// I realize this may ruin the opinion some of you had of me, with luck I'll get over it.

 

"He has stepped beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior, and should be stripped of his position."

He actually was.
He was VIP'd and banned.
It's the notion that it stay permanent that concerns me.

 

well, farraday, will that be a fat ass or a skinny butt on the platter?

ok, folks, alot of words have crossed this board for the last couple of days, and possibly all the words of the Thesaurus have been used, reused, and worn out.

Can we please all just get along? I luv that statement. We all need to try to have abit more patience, charisma, whatever it takes to keep our beloved board from self destruction.

It is at the middle point now that both management on the left/right and untitled members on the left/right (you choose which side of the middle you are) and everybody else here need to call a truce. The light is now green again (crosses fingers and toes) and we ALL should proceed/return to the world of the living. Time for all of us to come out of the darkness into the light of a new day. Let us strive to ALL be better here in our star wars world.

Considering it is now September 11 in most places around the world, except for the Pacific islands, we should focus on the value of life, how fragile life is, and be thankful/appreciative for the wonders and blessings of being able to be so active here in our cyber world. Regardless of all the pain and suffering here we've just gone through, we still do luv each and every member here, and would feel the lost of anyone who left for whatever reason.

Peace.

 

Yes farraday, Mods do make mistakes. Banning the wrong user, editing the wrong post, misunderstanding a post, etc etc etc....

But I wouldn't exactly classify LMM's action as a mistake. He unlocked a locked thread to literrally flame on someone. Then closed it in hopes that it would get burried and only seen by the posters of that thread. It wasn't just some "heat of the moment" comment either. It was pre-meditated. He thought about what he wanted to say and took no consideration for the consequences of his actions.

This isn't the first time he's done something like this apparently. That is why numerous jc posters are calling for further action against him.

A 2 day banning and a week out of the modsquad is not an appropriate retalliation. I think everyone can agree that the jc is not our lives. We can live without the jc for at least 2 days. Letting him have VIP status while waiting to get back into the modsquad in 5 days isn't exactly what i'd call punishment. Permanently stripping him of his title would though.

If he cannot moderate himself then how can he be fit to moderate others.

 

Considering it is now September 11 in most places around the world, except for the Pacific islands, we should focus on the value of life, how fragile life is, and be thankful/appreciative for the wonders and blessings of being able to be so active here in our cyber world.

I agree with keokiswahine. Let's let this rest at least for today. The thread's not going anywhere, and I think we could all use a bit of perspective.