LMM's decision: dealing with the

As someone who was affected by the attacks, I would greatly appreciate it if everyone would stop using their suffering as a way to try to guilt people into silence. The murder of thousands of people has nothing to do with a discussion of the administrations policies on policing their own.


I just have a few more things to add to Hook's post, which I agree with.

"If it was spiteful then you go grabbing your posse and go trophy hunting. "

While I don't appreciate the analogy, you are also overlooking something. His actions were spiteful. He flamed AYBABTU directly and all the participants of the thread in general. He unlocked a thread with the intention of flaming, and then locked it back up so no one could respond. When he spammed, he did so to antagonize those who held issue against him. It was the internet equivelant to sticking his fingers in his ears and humming, and was obviously done to infuriate the regular members that he displayed comtempt for.

No one has been calling for his eternal banishment, nor did we call him a nazi (*rolls eyes* over dramatic, much?). We have been insisting that we feel he is not fit for the role of moderator, and his behavior certainly merits a removal from the position that he boldly flaunted.

The guidelines specifically say never. He was to never be rude to members and never flaunt his authority. Never doesn't include a slap on the wrist for the first offense. There was never supposed to be a 'first' offense.

 

Well, there's nothing I could say that Gay-LenKenobi[/], Darth_AYBABTU, or Cetera didn't say before really. I'm not looking to be labeled a "drama monkey", but man, something about this doesn't seem right.

Vert, I appreciate the effort you put into it, but it just seems as if the whole answer fell a bit short. Nobody wants LMM held to any sort of unreasonable standards. He just needs to be held to the same standards of common decency that everyone should be held to.

JMA

 

As someone who was affected by the attacks, I would greatly appreciate it if everyone would stop using their suffering as a way to try to guilt people into silence.

That was uncalled for. No one's trying to guilt anyone into saying or not saying anything. I happen to agree with everything that AYBABTU has said to this point, but I also believe that a bit of a cool-down period and some perspective might do both sides some good.

 

Anyone wonder what LMM comments may be when he comes back? If he wants to, of course.

 

Jim, one can make the point that they feel it's time to back off for a while and reassess perspective without mentioning the date or it's signifigance. That point is just as valid on any other day of the year, but not more so today.

The mention of it seems to be in the terms of "think of what they went through and compare it to this petty squabble on a SW message board." That kind of approach suggests that we should feel guilty or ashamed of discussing this on 9/11. That kind of suggestion, I don't think any of us need.

If the point was just that every one needs a time-out to calm their tempers, then a mention of the attacks isn't necessary. Today is painful enough.

 

Well, then I apologize for adding anything to my post that would have offended anyone, but I do think a cool-down period would do everyone some good, regardless of the significance of the date.

 

I know you didn't mean to offend. I have alreasy seen unpleasant things that need to be dealt with soon be brushed off because 'this isn't the time to deal with it.' The suggestion that we shouldn't continue this discussion because it is the aniversary of 9/11 is just silly. It was alluded to twice before your post, and those were what I was addressing.

 

Gay-Len do you ever sleep?

JMA

 

This thread really has just become a rehash of the same arguments, over and over again.

There is no new thing under the sun here anymore.

 

I agree with farraday.
These witch hunts that are going on are awful and do not serve the JC in any way.

People are just waiting for a mod to make a mistake- any mistake so that they can make a public example of them.

Is it trying to get revenge for preacherboy?
Is it personal grudges for past moderator actions?
Who knows.
It certainly is out of order as far as making things better. This has gone long past appropriate repremands.

Is attitude a bannable offence - not specifically.
Otherwise many more would be out on their asses already. If you claim to have been banned for attitude, chances are it was a lot more than that that earned you your banning.
You want attitude, lets get Chyren back!
(And what about those that started this whole thing by flaming LMM in the first place? What has happened to them? Nothing. I'd bet they're sitting back enjoying the show they created.)

The mods have decided to take CORRECTIVE behavior rather than destructive behavior.
This they should be applauded for. This is an appropriate step and it is what makes good mods.
You learn from your mistakes -and before you get into issues about past mistakes if there were any - he has been called on it now and has been told he must learn from it or fail.

They have made a decision that mods will be held accountable for their attitude as representatives of TFN.
You all are challenged to do the same.

 

I'm very sorry that some of you feel as though the actions of the administration have fallen short. I can certainly understand why you'd feel that way, but that doesn't mean I agree.

I, too, would feel slighted had I been on the receiving end of condescension and attitude from a moderator. I'm not saying you shouldn't.

But I think the lot of you missed my last point - if LMM never posts with attitude again, isn't that enough? Is the point of this whole outrage to discipline LMM, or to punish LMM?

I feel as though some of you have made it personal. I feel as though even if LMM came in here and sincerely apologized, and never again posted with attitude, that would still not be good enough. You want vengeance for his having the audacity to do so in the first place. That's personal. We're trying to correct the situation, not avenge anyone he offended. You're more concerned with giving him his just desserts than you are with correcting the problem. I think some of you don't really care whether or not he's a nice guy from here on out, you want him gone, and that's that. That's personal. And I'm not saying that's not understandable, I'm just asking you to realize that you're being driven not by a desire to see mods act without attitude, but by the desire to kick LMM for having attitude.

I'm not going to be given over to personal motivation and agendas here. If you think I'm 'sheltering' LMM, you're seriously mistaken. I've pulled no punches on him in my discussions in the Mod Squad. However, I don't believe in the whole "you screwed up, you're gone" mantra that AYBABTU is championing. Why? Because every single one of us has screwed up. I have screwed up more than most, believe it or not. I've had so many goofs it's embarrassing. I'm sure a few EZ Boards out there have a laundry list of things I've done wrong. I've stepped over the bounds of the Admin Guidelines on occassion... should I be ejected?

I think you're missing the point of the guidelines. They don't exist as a "if you mess these up, you're gone", they exist as a "this is what we should shoot for". They exist so that we can point to them and say "Hey, you screwed up", not "Hey, you screwed up, so you're gone". They exist so we can clearly understand when we've goofed... what happens as a result of that goof is left up to the Leadership Council.

LMM will not mess up again, plain and simple. It will be made clear to him (if it isn't already) that this attitude won't be tolerated any further.

So let's drop the personal agendas. Some of you say nothing has changed. That's impossible for you to know. If LMM were still posting with an attitude, THEN nothing would have changed. But the guy hasn't posted anything yet. How can you be so certain? If he never again posts with attitude, then didn't something change? Or did you mean "LMM wasn't crucified like I wanted" when you said that nothing has changed?

What do you want? The problem to be correct, or LMM to be ejected? The two don't have to be one in the same. If we can correct the problem, shouldn't that be good enough?

Vertical

 

Wow no appearance by Internet_Drama yet? Shocking.

 

Maybe he was banned.

 

These witch hunts that are going on are awful and do not serve the JC in any way.

Reiterating what other's have said:

Since when is pursuing justice for completely legitimate concerns considered a "witch hunt"? Nobody is out to burn LMM's house down, or have him lynched, they just want recompense him to be held accountable for his idiotic behavior.

EDIT: In response to Vertical

I feel as though even if LMM came in here and sincerely apologized, and never again posted with attitude, that would still not be good enough.

He had the chance to do that long ago, when this whole mess began, and instead he chose to act like an idiot and spam the thread. Drawing on past examples, what evidence are we given to suggest that LMM's apology would be sincere? ?

I think some of you don't really care whether or not he's a nice guy from here on out

Again, has he acted like a nice guy from the start of this debacle? No. What reason are we given to believe that his conversion from rude and arrogant to sweetness and light is a legit one?

However, I don't believe in the whole "you screwed up, you're gone" mantra that AYBABTU is championing.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, he wasn't championing that in the beginning. LMM had ample opportunity to nip this in the bud with a timely and sincere apology, and instead decided to throw it back in the face of the posters bringing up this grievance with him. It's not "You screwed up, you're gone". It's "You screwed up, were given the chance to make it right, and then blatantly and knowingly made the situation worse. Now you're gone."

I've had so many goofs it's embarrassing. I'm sure a few EZ Boards out there have a laundry list of things I've done wrong. I've stepped over the bounds of the Admin Guidelines on occassion... should I be ejected?

Of course not. On the rare occasions that you do screw up you show genuine remorse and regret; something that LMM has yet to show that he's capable of.

LMM will not mess up again, plain and simple. It will be made clear to him (if it isn't already) that this attitude won't be tolerated any further.

I have to ask....or what? Another 2 day ban? A 2 week demotion this time?

If LMM were still posting with an attitude, THEN nothing would have changed. But the guy hasn't posted anything yet.

Not by any form of "tight-lipped" virtue on his part. The guy is physically unable to post, seeing how he is banned. It's not as if he's sitting by, solemnly reaping the rewards of his infractions.

The problem to be correct, or LMM to be ejected? The two don't have to be one in the same.

True, but in my opinion, in this case they are. He was given a chance early on to apologize for his error, and he responded with flames, mockery, and spam. He should be gone.

Red_Oktobur

Obviously this probably shook him

How can you possibly know that?




JMA

 

*Gives Vertical a standing ovation*


I agree completely. Obviously this probably shook him, and he won't do it again.


Sounds good....




...and an American flag

 

*Gives JediMasterAaron a standing ovation*


As for Gimer, I seriously do not think you read this thread or the last one. Revenge for Preacher? Not on your life. Banning preacher was one of the greatest things that ever happened here and I give the admins credit for that.



But Twink is right, there's little more to be said now. Hopefully the administration will make an informed decision soon.

LMM deserves VIP status for the banners he's produced for the jc. But it's obvious that he's not up to being a moderator. That simple.

 

1. "The admin guidelines indicate that admins, mods, and staffers are to be held to a higher standard than regular members, should always act responsibly, should never be rude to members, and that we should never flaunt our authority."

2. "While the Guidelines outline what is and isn't acceptable behavior, the guidelines offer no specific help in terms of what, exactly, would be a suitable punishment for violating one or any of these guidelines."


This thread jumped the shark about 2 pages ago, but by addressing the 2nd point above, we can hopefully turn this whole affair into something that forces change in Admining policy.

Now, a Mod can make a rash post, or act smug here and there -- like others have said, Mods are human, blah blah blah, but I think everyone involved in this thread would agree that we shouldn't just get rid of Mods who, on the off chance, make a mistake.

It's where Mods begin making calculated, pre-meditated actions, be it the flaunting of power or considered rudeness, where greater problems arise. In this situation, it's no doubt that LMM's actions were more than just a "slip up". He screwed up... royally.

To make progress, we need to evaluate point 2 from above. Yes, he screwed up. And whether some kind of punishment is handed out or not, he'll still be informed that further situations will result in further punishment. Basically, whether he's punished for his actions or not, the future remains: LMM won't screw up again -- and if he does, he won't make it through another of these threads, that's for sure.

The remaining problem, when all is said and done, and what is basically the only remaining division (in this situation) between the Admins and General populace, is basically whether or not LMM should recieve a punishment of some kind for his recent actions. (And I'm not talking about the punishment for his spam posting -- that's a seperate circumstance)

Having looked through what's happened, and everyone's thoughts on the matter in this, and other threads, I have no doubt that there should be some kind of punishment for wrongdoing. Now, I don't think we should demote LMM and never let him back, because well -- I'm a believer in giving people second chances. (SotS is a perfect example -- and now he's an Admin!) But I do not think a TFN Staffer should be able to have transgressed to the level that LMM has, and not recieve any more than a talking to. Like I said earlier, this is a Star Wars site of high standard. Let's keep it that way!

I would propose, and I'm speaking from my own perspective, not that of the Admins at a whole -- not an outright dismissal, which would seem too tough, but a temporary punishment for the actions made -- that is, demotion to VIP for a month. After the month is up, a better evaluation can be made of whether LMM has learned from this whole experience. Additionally, he'll still be able to perform his duties for TFN, without the ability to perform regular Moderator functions on-board.

In anycase, I don't think the members asking for punishment for crimes of a TFN Staffer is a "witch hunt" in any way. The key here is a punishment that fits the crime. LMM did more than a simple, rash, incrimidating post -- but he is human, capable of mistakes, and more importantly, capable to learn from mistakes. However, at the present, LMM has recieved no punishment for actions that were, as a leader on the boards, extremely inappropriate. That is the prevailing injustice, but one that can be easily rectified if the Leadership Council decide so.

 

Thank you epic. That is the best post by an admin I have yet heard in this entire affair.

I do agree that LMM is human, and may make mistakes, an no, we aren't on a witch hunt.

The key here is a punishment that fits the crime. LMM did more than a simple, rash, incrimidating post -- but he is human, capable of mistakes, and more importantly, capable to learn from mistakes.

I would accept a month demotion to a VIP, with a follow up evaluation and the promise that if anything like this happens again from him, he is gone for good. It is less than I have hoped for, but more than I thought we would get. I just want him to be held accountable for his actions. If your plan is acted upon, I will consider it to be fair, and we'll move on from there.

Thanks for reading, for understanding, and working with us, epic. You actually listened to our complaints, and I, for one, am grateful.

 

Hey, I was involved in the whole fiasco with PB and Lord Chewy a year or so ago that ended up being a 800 post monster in Comms -- and that was back when I was a regular member, so I know where you guys are coming from! In fact, there's a distinct parallel between the two situations, in that they both are regarding inappropriate actions partaken by an Admin figure.

In anycase, I posted what I said above in the Mod Squad, so, we'll see what happens.

 

To clarify I wasn't talking specifically about the LMM situation, just AYBABTU's assertion that any mistake by an admin should end up with the admins removal.

I'd also like to point out that while mods should be held to a higher standard, holding them to an impossible one isn't going to help anything.

They're human, not gods.

Except for Vert.

Ille mi par esse deo uidetur

 

HookLineAndSinker,
You obviously missed the '?' at the end of that line. It wasn't a statement.

And this is where this all started.
text on a screen is VERY easy to misinterpret the intention of the writer. Especially where emotions are involved. I see the line about the banner being created with a little controversy and I see it as a joke replying to someone else. "Oh I knew it would create some controversy, but I decided to chance it in my artistic expression" type of thing. Others see it as serious... and that leads to angry posts because of the misinterpretation. Only LMM knows how he truely meant that post.

I've read every post in all the threads.
Maybe you missed the couple of posts asking about then why preacherboy was banned for attitude? It was my opinion that these posters may not have agreed with that banning and by bringing that up, were trying to really talk about that banning.

I have no personal agenda in the whole thing, so my personal opinion here really is as unbiased as possible.
And not every complaint here is on the same level. Some have good intentions but don't necessarily have all the facts. Others seem not so good intentioned.

Some peoples' attitudes really piss me off, but I don't plan on starting a thread about it. - Why? Because it's their OPINION.

Think what you want. That's your opinion.
I agree with Vert that some people will never be satisfied.

I don't believe that advisory council members of all people should be leading the public bashing of moderators.
I believe that the proper way to have handled this would have been as an enforcer of the peace... saying something to the effect "the AC is currently discussing this with the mod squad as we speak... can we all be civil and wait for a decision? Any concerns can be passed to us and we will bring them up..."
I thought that's what the AC was for... to act as a liason between the members and the administration to help the tensions be less, and not more. To bring the issues before them, and help to come to a decision that will benifit all. To be an unbiased arbitrator of sorts.
THAT's MY opinion. Maybe I'm wrong.

On my final note:
Being a mod doesn't change your number of strikes to 1 and you're out, it changes the size of the strike zone.

 

I'm only posting on this one specific point whch was made.

You want vengeance for his having the audacity to do so in the first place. That's personal. We're trying to correct the situation, not avenge anyone he offended. You're more concerned with giving him his just desserts than you are with correcting the problem. I think some of you don't really care whether or not he's a nice guy from here on out, you want him gone, and that's that. That's personal.

As a member of a management team in the "real world", had a member of my management team done something like this he would have been removed quickly with no debate. HR would have just processed his check and sent him on his way for me. I would not have supported him in any way. My team understands what must be done and the rules and guidelines they must follow. If they cross the line they are aware they will have to take responsibility for their actions. I'm now directing this towards the direct misuse of power by unlocking a thread and then relocking it after his comments were posted. Abuse of power like that shows me he has no respect for other members of management or his subordinates, and because of that has broken the trust.

I can understand the punishments handed down may seem harsh for the offenses that they covered, but from what I can see no direct punishment has been handed down for the abuse of power. Because of the abuse of power alone I feel he should be removed as a mod permanently and for no other reason. Had there been no abuse of power then I would agree the punishment he received would have been just and deserved.

I hold myself to a high standard in everything I do and I expect those around me to strive for excellence.

I appreciate everyones contribution to this discussion.

 

I'm going to hit on a lot of points here, some of which may only be tangentially related to the LMM affair.

Vertical wrote: Some of you say nothing has changed. That's impossible for you to know.

I know it's impossible. I said as much in my post. But that wasn't the main point I was trying to get across. My point was that it's the perception that nothing has changed. Is that fair? No, it probably isn't. But perception, as I said in my last post, counts for a whole lot.

Nearly every mod who has posted in either LMM thread has defended the decision. I think Carter even said the decision was unanimous, at least by the Leadership Council, though I might be wrong. Fair or not, this gives off the perception that the mods are looking out for their own. epic seems to be the lone voice of dissention. Is he? I wouldn't think so. There almost has to be some other mods who think a harsher punishment was deserved. However, none of them have said anything. That leads to the perception of an "old boys club" as was alluded to by John of the collective and Dark Lady Mara in the "Lord Mauly Mall Decision" thread. Is this a false perception? Quite possibly. But whenever those sorts of things are questioned, the general answer from the administration is, "You're wrong, that's not how it is." But that doesn't mean anything. Why not prove it somehow? Why don't the mods make a concerted effort to correct people's misconceptions? Telling us we're wrong doesn't help anything. If anything, it leads to more drama.

In the end, what I'd like to see come out of this whole business, is a more efficient administration. In the future, when things like this happen, I, and I would think many others, hope that the administration can deal with it without anyone having to call them out. We've now had three separate threads, all essentially related to the same issue! All have gone over 100 posts, and the initial (though it wasn't solely about LMM) received close to 300 posts. Why was all this necessary? And please don't give the standard "drama-mongers" answer. That's a load of crap. I said the following in a PM to KnightWriter a couple of days ago: Why not just let everyone know what's going on right away? That would stop drama before it even had a chance to start. It was in response to a thread asking why some mods were colorless. But the point is valid here. So much "drama" is started as a result of lack of communication or perceived mistakes on the part of the administration. Had the administration acted swiftly in the LMM business, we would not currently have three threads on the subject.

DarthAttorney wrote: But this time it has been well noted and action has been taken. Something has changed.

When I first read that, I was going to challenge you on what you said. However, after reading Darth_AYBABTU's post, I realized you're right. Something has changed. One of the handful of really great posters seems to now be completely demoralized. Few people seem to care about the JC as much as Rhett and few take the time he does to try and better it. But from the tone of his latest post, it seems as if he's going to stop trying. So, you're right, something has changed. Funny that in the end nothing changing would have been better than the change we did get.

Amazing.

 

Epic:

What would a longer demotion accomplish that the current punishment would not? Given that he will be watched and that there is an absolute guarantee he will lose his admin status permenantly if he slips up again, what would a lengthier demotion accomplish besides making him feel like the victim of mob justice?

You say that the current punishment is only for the spamming he did but for having a bad attitude, nothing has been done. IMO, something was done for both actions in truth. If he had re-opened that thread and sincerely apologized to those he offended, would he have been punished at all, much less like he was for the post he made instead? Think about that seriously and you know the answer would be no, even though it would have been an abuse of power nonetheless.

What I'm saying is that justice has been served. The nay-sayers and those offended will not be satisfied with anything shy of his permenant removal as admin. Extending his punishment or changing it shows weakness IMO, so leave it as is and see what happens.

Catera: A while back you said that the old administration would have had LMM's head for these actions. I think you presume to speak for those who are not around to say what they would do and to be honest, if they had done as you said I would be here complaining about it. To have no compassion on another person for making mistakes given all the things LMM has done for the JC is as dictatorial as it gets.

One can only hope you were wrong about that, but in recalling the elitest snobbery that went along with the good old days, you were likely and unfortunately right. Thank god that much of what was wrong with those days has passed.

 

Had the administration acted swiftly in the LMM business, we would not currently have three threads on the subject.


Amazing, that was not possible. It took several days for all administrators to even log into the JC. If you want to get upset at people not logging into the JC often enough, that's one thing, but to say that things were not done swiftly enough is mistaken.

Hasty decisions are usually bad decisions.