LMM's decision: dealing with the

Just bringing up one point, concerning the AC:

I believe that the proper way to have handled this would have been as an enforcer of the peace... saying something to the effect "the AC is currently discussing this with the mod squad as we speak... can we all be civil and wait for a decision? Any concerns can be passed to us and we will bring them up..."

I thought that's what the AC was for... to act as a liason between the members and the administration to help the tensions be less, and not more. To bring the issues before them, and help to come to a decision that will benifit all. To be an unbiased arbitrator of sorts.


The AC isn't the voice of the entire JC -- it's merely a cross section of different members of the JC. The AC's opinions are their own. I think the distinction between "JC Representatives" and "Representatives of the JC" needs to be more clearly made.

This thread, and the ability of the entire JC to voice their own opinion or concern, should never be replaced.

THAT's MY opinion.

An opinion that you wouldn't have been able to make, if you were relying on just the AC to be giving their own opinions for you.

That's not to say the AC isn't a useful mix to have -- it is. But their value will be no different to the value of opinion of everyone else who's posted in this thread.

 

"Amazing, that was not possible. It took several days for all administrators to even log into the JC. If you want to get upset at people not logging into the JC often enough, that's one thing, but to say that things were not done swiftly enough is mistaken.

Hasty decisions are usually bad decisions."

I know this has been brought up several times already, but when regular users are banned, there's usually not much delay. There shouldn't be prolonged discussion just because he's a mod. Mods should be held to higher standards than regular users, but should be dealt with just as swiftly. It would result in accountability, which is what many have been clamoring for in the LMM threads.

The best course of action, as far as I'm concerned, would have been banning him for his actions, then discussing them. In this case, I believe it took what, four days? Then the administration decides he's served his punishment and he gets off with time served. The biggest problem that most people seem to have is that any sort of discussion was needed before acting.

Amazing.

 

but should be dealt with just as swiftly. It would result in accountability, which is what many have been clamoring for in the LMM threads.


Amazing, moderators cannot ban other moderators, nor is it our place to decide the fate of another moderator on our own. It takes a manager to even demote a moderator so that they can be banned, and it really isn't a manager's place to do that unless they are authorized. That's why it takes an administrator to do it.

 

"Amazing, moderators cannot ban other moderators, nor is it our place to decide the fate of another moderator on our own. It takes a manager to even demote a moderator so that they can be banned, and it really isn't a manager's place to do that unless they are authorized. That's why it takes an administrator to do it."

Well, then, that needs to be changed. Managers should have the authority to do it if they deem it fit. Mods should not get special treatment in any way, shape, or form. That they do is absurd and leads to the situation in which we currently find ourselves.

Amazing.

 

There's nothing that can be changed. It's part of the board coding.

Managers have the ability to demote and then ban, but moderators don't. You have to be a manager to even consider doing it.

 

There's also the fact the demoting and banning a moderator, even briefly, should be brought to the attention of the rest before it happens since it represents a very real drop in the ability to moderate the boards.

 

I pretty much agree with what Rhett said a little earlier. A few bright spots in the Mod Squad can't atone for their overall piss-poor performance.

I know I'm pummeling a long-deceased horse, but I'm a firm believer in "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Sure, LMM can be stripped of moderator powers for a short period of time and be expected to apologize and promise never to spam/flame again, but it's usually easier said than done.

But if the mods want to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us, then their penalties should correspond. I, personally, have never run into LMM in a negative way, but I think that his demotion should be permanent, but with a chance of "parole" after a set period of time. If he shows that his stint as a VIP has proven that he's capable of change, he can be a moderator again. If he slips up again, then he needn't worry about that anymore.

Amazing, that was not possible. It took several days for all administrators to even log into the JC. If you want to get upset at people not logging into the JC often enough, that's one thing, but to say that things were not done swiftly enough is mistaken.

Hasty decisions are usually bad decisions.

I see what you're saying, KW, and I can partially agree with you. But do all moderators have to get involved? I know you function as a team, but every team has its captains and veterans, and as long as enough of these types show up, that's all that's needed to make a decision.

Also, people have to make short-notice decisions constantly. It shouldn't be any different here. Even if the decision's results turn out to be... undesirable, it can always be changed. It's just the internet. It's not like you're declaring war on Kreplachistan or anything.

Still, I believe you and Vertical should be commended for your candid opinions on this matter. You contributed selflessly and did your best to shed light and sense on this issue.

GO 'CLONES!

 

My fault, I wasn't clear. I understand that mods banning mods can't be changed. But managers should be able to ban mods. They shouldn't have to wait for authority from the administrators.

Amazing.

 

Managers can't demote other managers either....but despite all of that, LMM is TF.N staff, a semantic difference that cannot be overlooked. Sure, we could set it up where if I think Sapient is being an arse I could demote and ban him, but it's pretty unlikely I'm going to ban Josh for doing the exact same thing I'm banning Sapient for. It's just going to have to be a painfully slow case by case basis...I can't see it being any other way.

 

I see what you're saying, KW, and I can partially agree with you. But do all moderators have to get involved? I know you function as a team, but every team has its captains and veterans, and as long as enough of these types show up, that's all that's needed to make a decision.


I don't think all moderators have to be involved, and to my knowledge, not all have been. But I don't think it's wise to have a single administrator making all the decisions on short notice. Many of the captains and veterans took awhile in showing up for this situation, for whatever reason.

I know what you're saying about decisions, but backtracking isn't often a good thing. I believe (and this may just be me) that it's better to come to the right decision the first time than to make a bad decision and have to change it.

 

Epic,
Then I have misunderstood what the AC was here for. Sorry.
But maybe they should fill the arbitrator type mode.
Having them perform like I said would not have prevented mine or anyone elses ideas from being heard, they just would have been heard in a more civil and hopefully more unbiased way by a representative council.

I am not disagreeing with the judgements that have been made because that really isn't anyones call but the administration, just the way the case was being presented.
It's hard to dish out punishment when no rules for said punishment have been defined.
Grandfather clause type thing.

 

I agree with AYBABTU, Jedi Greg Maddux and AmazingB on this issue.

I still believe the best punishment would be to demote him to VIP until he could prove himself worthy to be a mod again. If he does that, good, let him be a mod again. But just giving him mod powers again a week after this incident smacks of wrist slapping to me and many other members.

I predict that when LMM comes back as a mod, he's going to start a thread, and some troublemaker will spam it. Then LMM will be in the unenviable position of having to punish someone for what he commited himself.

 

Don't come back under a sock.

Edit: Refers to a serial troll.

 

Oh, the drama.

Can someone please be so kind enough to summarise what happened in the events that led to LMM's demotion and banning? I have always been a great admirer of his work and have also enjoyed his company. Of all the people, I can't believe that he would create so much ruccus. He is a good man.

 

I've got a follow-up to all this, but I need a little more time to finish catching up from last night.

 

"Is the point of this whole outrage to discipline LMM, or to [ /i]punish LMM?"

If those two words are mutually exclusive, I am unaware of it.



"...you want him gone, and that's that. That's personal. ...you're being driven not by a desire to see mods act without attitude..."

I do want him gone, at least from the Mod Squad. And if you want to talk about personal motivations, I'll tell you that what motivates me to seek that remedy is a desire to protect other people on this board (in particular, the people in my Fan Force) from the kind of abuse and pompousness that LMM has exhibited toward Darth_AYBABTU and many others. I think I speak for most people here when I say we have no need for mods who treat their elevated privileges as a toy for common irritation instead of a tool for the common good.



"I don't believe in the whole 'you screwed up, you're gone' mantra ... Because every single one of us has screwed up. ... I've stepped over the bounds of the Admin Guidelines on occassion. Should I be ejected?"

The difference here is that LMM, unlike you and I, has not accepted even the slightest possibility that he has erred. Instead of apologizing for his actions (sincerely apologizing), and trying to understand what he's done wrong, he has chosen to throw it back in our faces and essentially told us all to kiss off. That was not a mistake, it was a premeditated choice. I see this as the primary hint of what is to come from keeping him on the Mod Squad.

I am not approaching this as a "witch hunt," and I despise that phrase being bandied about so lightly. I am approaching this from the same viewpoint that the Fan Force admins approached my last infraction. I was expected to prove that I could accept the possibility that I was wrong in what I did by issuing a sincere apology for those actions and a pledge to change my behavior. What I want to know is why this same thing has been a required part of the redemption of a lowly CR such as myself, yet it hasn't been expected at all of someone in as high a position as LMM.



"I see the line about the banner being created with a little controversy and I see it as a joke..."

Even if it was a joke, it's a joke that most people would know better than to make, considering that everyone who either sees it the other way or merely can't read his bleeding mind will think that it's evidence of trolling. Besides, it's not as though people haven't been banned for making bad jokes.



"I don't believe that advisory council members of all people should be leading the public bashing of moderators."

There's no bashing going on here. Calling into question one's behavior does not amount to bashing. On the other hand, if it does, then I've got a few complaints to register against the Fan Force admins.



"If he had re-opened that thread and sincerely apologized to those he offended, would he have been punished at all? ...the answer would be no..."

Agreed. And I would have been pleased and satisfied with that and would not have considered it an abuse of power. But we're not talking about hypothetical situations here. We all know what actually happened.



"There's nothing that can be changed. It's part of the board coding."

Nonsense. Anything on the internet can be changed. Isn't that what we have zerosleep for?
EDIT: Just heard we don't have zerosleep anymore. Dang. Well perhaps Josh should find a new liason within IGN to work with.



"...demoting and banning a moderator, even briefly, ... represents a very real drop in the ability to moderate the boards."

Somehow I have a hard time believing that.



"...LMM can ... be expected to apologize and promise never to spam/flame again, but it's usually easier said than done."

Not really. I've done my best to live up to my apology, and I think if I can do that, then certainly someone who is supposedly 7 years

 

Nonsense. Anything on the internet can be changed. Isn't that what we have zerosleep for?

It's not nonsense. zerosleep does contract work for IGN's boards when they request and pay him. Unless you're willing to foot his bill for changing the coding here, somehow arranging the coding not to be changed at IGN (cause they didn't ask for this), and I think the two may be intertwined if not the same, the coding isn't going to change.

As I understand it, zerosleep stays on as an admin because he is both most knowledgable about the board system as well as still implementing the odd new feature now and then and making sure all is as it should be.

EDIT: We lost zerosleep! What happened????

¤Night

 

I have not read any of this thread, but I just wanted to chime in on LMM for a moment.

He was given VIP status because he was a good contributor to the art deparment in these parts. He was given moderator status...why? I have never seen him act like a member of the moderating team both in public or private and I believe his promotion was ill-advised and giving him back mod status should be discussed at length, hopefully with his negative attitude being taken into account.

Needless to say, I will not support the Administration if they decide to reinstate him as was.

 

Hello, friends.

 

Hello, Internet Drama!

 

We still don't know why a banner maker needs to be a mod just because he's staff.... are mods just going to dance around that until we forget? Or have I just missed it?
_jOBO

 

I agree with BYOB_KENOBI When he says:

I do want him gone, at least from the Mod Squad. And if you want to talk about personal motivations, I'll tell you that what motivates me to seek that remedy is a desire to protect other people on this board (in particular, the people in my Fan Force) from the kind of abuse and pompousness that LMM has exhibited toward Darth_AYBABTU and many others. I think I speak for most people here when I say we have no need for mods who treat their elevated privileges as a toy for common irritation instead of a tool for the common good.

Again I say the heart of this issue now is the Abuse of Mod Powers. Which has not yet been addressed from what I can see. It's really discouraging to see that this issue goes unresolved. For the Abuse of power he should be removed.

 

I concur. Fire him from the mod squad. Not only will it get rid of someone who is clearly unsuited to being a mod, but it will send a message to the mods that they are not above the rules and to the general poster it will say that problems are actually dealt with.

Of course it won't happen...

 

but it will send a message to the mods that they are not above the rules and to the general poster it will say that problems are actually dealt with.


We already know we are not above the rules (or at least I know that, speaking for myself), and things have been dealt with. Simply because not everyone likes it (and like it or not, there have been numerous people in favor of the current decision) does not mean the problems have not been dealt with.

 

Keep saying that mods aren't above the rules. It might even be true someday.