PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Inspired by a similar thread in the OT forum -- some moments where critical thinking pokes holes in the story.

    Add your favorites

    ROTS:

    • When Anakin pilots the crippled Separatist ship at the end of the Battle of Coruscant, the ship burns up on reentry. Only we've never, ever seen any ship in the Star Wars universe burn up on reentry.

    • Similarly, he lands the ship on a runway on Coruscant. We've never seen any ship in the Star Wars universe that didn't land vertically, and every single one of them has skids not wheels. Why would there be a runway there in the first place?

    • R2-D2's body physically cannot fit into the wing of a Jedi Starfighter.


  2. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    This subject is been there done that for people. That's the only reason who ever it was that made it made the one in the OT forum because the OT is usually never looked at this critically. A ton of people have already done this with the PT.

    And while you're at least trying to think of new ones, those seem pretty weak to me (And don't get we wrong, I thought the guy in the OT forum was grasping at straws for a lot of 'em) You've got to take into account things like how beat up that ship was. It was the first one that was that heavily damaged we saw trying to land, the first one that also probably had it's shields down upon re-entry. And for the landing thing that was the first ship of its kind that we saw. I'm sure that not all ships are built the same way. I have nothing on the R2 one, but I've never been one to delude myself into believing any of the films (from either trilogy) were flawless and without logic gaps.
    IIA_MasterSHenson and Lee_ like this.
  3. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    @ Janstett:

    The issue with those "FLAWS" can be found at the source of Star Wars. Lucas prefers great visuals, over great story-telling. This isn't old hat, by any means. I like and enjoy critical examination of the finer details both within and outside the saga. Your first point is well seen and I'd also add that we've never seen or heard about: "extending all flaps and dragfins." That was stupid dialog to me, sounded kinda cool the first time, but was dumb upon further review. REALLY dumb, mind you....

    Logically speaking about point number two: With the aft portion of the ship no longer attached, there would be nothing to steer with, or any way to elevate the nose of the vessel. I have no answer for the ship burning upon entry, other than the heat shield generators must have been in the back half that broke away. Nothing else makes sense. Given the flaming hull, landing gear was not an option and I'm glad they didn't bother. Quite simply: The Invisible Hand should have landed like a meteor strike, or in the exact same manner that Imperial Probe Droid struck the surface on Hoth. My friend is a former combat pilot, I've pm'd him a link to this thread... I am sure he will have some "deeper points" to make regarding that subject. I wonder if there was ANY pre-existing EU material that stated the existence of Coruscant's emergency runway. And if that were truly in existence before the movie, how unlikely it was that the Hand entered atmosphere right above it? IMHO: it all goes back to Lucas, he wanted some tension so he created it visually without much rhyme or reason besides looking cool. Fire Ships? RLY? Those guys must be the definition of EVER-READY. :rolleyes: Talk about plot convenience.

    Point Three: No he doesn't, but R2 sure looks cool flying beside Luke's *ahem* Dad.
    I liken that to the rocket-boosters in AOTC. Awesome fanboy moment but nonetheless totally clueless, not well thought out. The retcon ended up being even dumber when they tried to cover their asses for why R2 didn't use them in the OT. The warranty expired. Awful.

    Anyways, love the thread.
    There are 3.2 billion details to be examined!! And u just hit on three of em!!

    Mzukiller likes this.
  4. Shira_Adola Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2011
    star 4
    Ok, but how about this simple (admittedly non-techinical) glitch? Who wants to explain to me why there is just one scene where Obi-Wan's braid is behind his left ear, instead of his right? It's just always bothered me.
  5. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    There are a great number of continuity flaws in the whole Star Wars saga, and many of them have to do with mirror image issues. The incident you speak of (although I can't think of the scene you are referring to) is probably an example of one of these flipped image flaws.

    Basically, Lucas and company often took the easy route in post-editting by flipping images if they felt that people should be looking or facing a certain direction instead of another. This saved time and money by not having to reshoot.

    One horribly obvious example is in ROTJ when Lando is talking to Han in the hanger before they each leave for their respective missions to Endor. Lando's shoulder strap flips from one shoulder to the next and back again in a matter of seconds.
    IIA_MasterSHenson likes this.
  6. gobalicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2010
    star 1
    1) Presumably, ships with functioning engines could slow down enough to avoid a fiery reentry.

    2) Good point. Maybe it was a racetrack, not a runway?

    3) I never realized this before. Honestly, I was a lot more bothered by R2's ability to jump out and land on his feet. Sorry, but you need some serious shock absorbers and knees to do that. Not to mention the ridiculousness of his ability to fly... And really, R2 would get nowhere fast on Tatooine without the luxury of paved path everywhere he went.
  7. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    Oh man, now I can't stop thinking where R2's body goes when he gets into the wing. That's gonna stand out on future viewings... :p
  8. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    - Sound in space.

    - Slugs in space. Living in asteroids.

    - Objects illuminated by binary stars casting only one shadow across the landscape.

    - White-skinned humans everywhere, speaking English.

    - Laser bolts shown as bright blobs that move slower than bullets.

    - Men in white plastic bumping their heads on obvious doors.

    - Han fixing a faster-than-light starship by thumping the dashboard.

    - Luke has no sex drive, except when he's kinda fancying his sister or getting snogged by her.

    Start again, Lucas!
    cwustudent and IIA_MasterSHenson like this.
  9. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    This is about the PT Cryo. If people want to look for logic holes in the PT (which in my opinion has been done to death already in several places) than let 'em and if you see a problem with the complaints than you can argue them. But I don't think that this type of counterattack shouldn't be on this thread. It should go to the OT one where these notes belong. I"m not trying to come across as a jerk, but I'm just saying. I'll even say that if I think of any new ones I think are legit I'll put 'em down as I've done in the OT counterpart forum. As I mentioned earlier I'm not someone who ever believed that any of the STAR WARS films were without any of these kinds of flaws.

    Although I will say that while I don't think the space slug is a logic flaw (It's STAR WARS where there are tons of varrying alient types) I do wonder how it would've been recieved if it were in one of the modern movies rather than the originals. I can't help but feel a lot more people would feel that it was goofy/ridiculous.
  10. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4



    Huh? These are problems for you?
  11. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2010
    star 3
    Dooku vs Anakin and Kenobi ROTS

    Has anyone noticed that at 0:40-0:42, Kenobi has about three chances to stab Dooku in the back, and instead just spins around and swings his lightsaber really slowly. Most of the saber fights are fairly well choreographed. This one not so much.
  12. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Here's a gaping logic flaw I've found:

    Episodes I, II and III were made AFTER Episodes IV, V and VI.

    I remember, in 2005, when some people were making a big deal of Lucas "forgetting" to film Obi-Wan confiscating Anakin's lightsaber at the end of their duel in ROTS (Obi-Wan's pick-up was, well, a pick-up).

    But look at this! Lucas actually FORGOT to make THREE WHOLE FILMS FIRST! In the history of movies, show me a bigger blunder! No wonder everyone is calling him a "hack" these days...
  13. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    I think the ship burned up on reentry because half of the ship was destroyed, therefore something happened with the engine.
  14. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Lucas "breaks" other "rules" in the opening act, too. For instance, the Invisible Hand actually "tips" side-ways, and the gravity is not adjusted, as it always is in other instances throughout the entire saga, leading to skits involving Artoo and also Anakin, Obi-Wan and Palpatine. Another "sacred cow", from a certain point of view, is also slaughtered when all the sliding pieces -- droid and ships, barring Artoo -- actually hurtle down at high speed and pulverise themselves, leaving Artoo buried in a heap of scrap metal. The closest companion to this circumstance, I think, would be the trash compactor scene(s) in ANH, but even then, we don't actually see any of the junk being further smashed, or, in effect, created. You could argue, "logically", that artificial gravity "doesn't work that way", or that ships capable of traveling through both space and hyperspace, and engaging with other ships in combat, shouldn't break up because they happen to land on each other at a few hundred miles per hour (if that). Clearly, Lucas does not shackle himself to reality in Star Wars; he pivots on -- and, in a way, transcends -- reality; yet nothing is necessarily contradicted or ruined. From another point of view, there is an "outer" logic (the external lenses through which people view the art; subjective and arbitrary), and an "inner" logic (the patterns within the art and how they relate to each other; subjective but requiring less-strict adherence to any given interpretative frame).
  15. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Actually, if you look at the model for the Jedi starfighter, you will see a box-like protrusion under the left wing of the ship. That leaves enough space for Artoo's body to fit into.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIPsXY7_fc&feature=player_detailpage#t=156s

    Look carefully at the wing of Anakin's fighter as the camera focuses on Artoo. You can see it there.
    IIA_MasterSHenson likes this.
  16. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Shields weren't up and working, dude. That's why the ship burned up. How is this a mistake? I'd imagine a ship traveling that fast would burn up, anyway, regardless if it had shields to protect from it. I'm sure when they land their ships on worlds, they would travel at a leisurely pace, also.
    TKT likes this.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This.

    It was the 70s. Han was trying to be like the Fonz.
  18. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I actually love this detail (from a certain point of view).

    See, while something like "2001" -- a big influence on Lucas -- more self-consciously aspired to scientific realism, Star Wars did not, and does not. It is shifted, with some degree of irony.

    In this case, all the characters are unaware they are actually walking around a scientifically-implausible world. Where there should be two suns, there is, actually, only one. In other words, where the characters THINK there is duality, there is, in fact, a unified truth that they do not perceive. They are sufficiently incurious and are accordingly trapped in a permanent fiction.

    Of course, it's "really" because the characters are played by human actors walking around in a mixture of real-world settings, on Earth, not an alien planet; in film studios; and inside a computer, in digital fantasias. Therefore, everything everyone says is a "mistake", in Star Wars, is, from another point of view, nothing of the kind.

    Touche!
  19. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    The citizens are so gullible. So Palpatine can survive multiple Jedi attempts on his life, yet gets captured by droids.
  20. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    When asked I'm sure he would say that his current body guard/right-hand man Anikan/Vader rescued him, which he technically did. I doubt he'd decide not to own up to that.
  21. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2010
    star 3
    I always figured Palpatine allowed Dooku to capture him as a part of his grand scheme to lead Anakin down the path of meanness...I mean the darkside. You could see from Dooku's face when he heard the execution order that the Count knew Palpatine was Sidious. It was supposed to lead the Jedi into a trap and take out two key players in the Republic war effort. But Dooku didn't realize that Palps was actually planning the demise of his current apprentice. At least, that's how I see it. Palpatine's insistence that Anakin leave Obi-Wan to die on the ship further enforces this.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Realism in fantasy, imagine that.
  23. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah. I'd say Anakin's the deciding factor there. Recall that Obi-Wan and Anakin are specifically brought back from the Outer Rim Sieges to help rescue Palpatine in the opening act, when he's in the middle of being kidnapped while a massive battle rages. Somehow, the Jedi make it into the ship's hangar, grab hold of Palpatine, and eventually touch the ship down -- and it's really Anakin who enables all three (by blasting the shield generator to the hangar door, taking the lead while Obi-Wan is unconscious and using some pretty mad piloting skillz for a ship that's half-missing and rapidly breaking up). I can imagine Palpatine invoking Anakin in some fashion to "explain" how he managed to survive the "ruthless" Jedi onslaught.
  24. Chiss_Insight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2006
    star 1
    First, I love the PT. I love it like I love my family: flaws and all. However, here are a few things that stand out as far as logical flaws.

    - Why does Qui Gon back fist Maul off of that platform? If the line was open to back fist, couldn't he have just cut the top of Maul's head off?

    - Why does Nute Gunray think he will be able to kill Obi and Qui Gon? It's the Republic era; the general public is aware that Jedi are bad news. Why does he think he will be able to dispatch two Jedi so easily (assuming he doesn't know that Qui Gon is a master and Obi is just an apprentice)?

    - Why does Padme fall for Anakin? Portman was cast for what she was as a teenager (a smart, precocious young girl) so that she could bring that to the role. Aside from surviving several dangerous situations together, why does Padme give in and fall in love with the obviously ego-driven, whiney, mass-murderer? And he's creepy. He leers at her. I have so little opportunity to use the word "leers" in real time, but he really does!

    - How many Jedi were there before the battle of Geonosis? Did only 12-15 of them survive that fight, because that's what it looks like? Certainly, it shouldn't be impossible to kill a Jedi, but shouldn't more of them have made it, especially because the PT era Jedi are mostly depicted as being able to cut battle droids down like butter, even in large numbers?

    - Why does Padme choose the inflection she does for the words, "...killed younglings!" on Mustafar. Is she lapsing into some weird Nabooian dialect that we don't know about that sounds vaguely Canadian (okay, this last one isn't really a big deal, but seriously Natalie (and I'm a fan) what was up with the line reading on that take)?

    These points don't take away from my overall enjoyment of the PT, but stand out for me as some logical gaps.
  25. DarthWuher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2010
    star 1
    How bout in AOTC, how does Padme know that Dooku escaped to a hanger after shes been knocked out of the gunship? When she falls out she is clearly knocked unconscience. How does she know where they even went?
    "We've got to get to that hanger! Get a transport, hurry!"

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