PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't entirely disagree, in that Anakin obviously took his attachment to his loved ones to an extreme. However, my issue is the PT Jedi defining normal familial attachments themselves as somehow "bad" and therefore to be avoided, when the general world view is that a close-knit family is considered a good thing.

    Anakin had the Force, otherwise he was just a normal person with a normal psychological makeup, at least as a kid--his mental instability later could be attributed to factors too numerous to discuss here.

    But in TPM--of course he was afraid to be away from his mother. He was a 10-year-old kid and she was the only family he had. And if he was thinking more of how it affected him--again, he was a 10-year-old kid. There aren't too many kids who see the universe outside of how they are personally affected. And on his mother and Padme dying--when most of us grieve a loved one, the grief is for us, not the person who passed. We are grieving because we don't want to exist in a world where they don't. Anakin was perfectly normal in that regard. Where he went to an extreme, and stumbled into selfishness, was being willing to sell himself to the Sith to keep Padme alive. But the general desire to save both her and Padme was not selfish or greedy in and of itself.

    I think the Jedi would have been better off acknowledging the normal psychological makeup of sentient beings and trying to work with it rather than fighting it via isolation. If that had been their policy all along, they would have had a far better understanding of how Anakin was wired.
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I don't think anyone is disputing the TPM era separation anxiety - and in fact, GL has been quoted as saying Qui-Gon was WRONG to take Anakin (at that age) while right in taking Anakin for training.

    So both Qui-Gon and the Council were wrong - and right - during TPM. I don't think we are actually disputing that, are we?

    Ah, but again you are "falling into the trap" (sorry) that the Council should have had a different policy because of Anakin's circumstances - at least, you seem to be indicating that they should have had that policy ALL ALONG and before Anakin in order to deal adequately with Anakin.

    No disagreement that they should have attempted to find a better way to deal with Anakin's attachment issues when Qui-Gon plopped him into their laps, but to imply their way was wrong because it didn't deal with Anakin is misguided.

    Certainly we can discuss the general issue of whether the policy was right, wrong, or in-between and come to different conclusions, but one cannot simply say a policy that worked well (please, I do agree that because some systems worked "well" does not make them correct or moral) is wrong because one time it did not.

    In this country we have no experience with boarding schools or fostering kids out as in medieval ages, but separating kids from parents AT THE RIGHT AGE is not NECESSARILY harmful in and of itself. It may not be desirable, of course.

    The policy, and how it was applied to Anakin is two different issues (to me).

    I only have time right now to address part of your post, but this I agree with.

    Fundamentally, the "disagreement" is because of the different definitions various posters have applied to "attachment."

    If we don't agree on the definition, we don't agree on what we are even discussing.
  3. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Can I just say...?

    With the return of darth-sinister, it's like 2005 all over again!

    [face_dancing] [face_dancing] [face_dancing]
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I was on my fandom hiatus in 2005; I was thinking darth-sinister was around before then.

    Valairy_Scot: Yes, that is exactly my stance--not that the Jedi should have "made an exception" and "allowed Anakin to have attachments" (that's the stance I've been accused of taking in the past, albeit not by you). Rather that "making an exception" shouldn't have been an issue in the first place because the "rule" itself shouldn't have existed, Anakin or no Anakin. And there was no "allowing" or "not allowing" Anakin to have attachments because no organization can or should make rules regarding how a member can feel, only how he can behave. He had the attachments; his psychological makeup can't change because the Order had a rule.

    And as I mentioned, I think that if any of the elder members of the Order had had experience handling normal attachments, they might have had a better idea of how to teach Anakin to do so. And that to me is crucial; they could not teach what they didn't know or understand. But the other Order members had been immersed solely in Jedi philosophy and removed from normal sentient experiences from infancy so they had no clue.

    So to me it's not that the Order's policies worked for everyone but Anakin, but that Anakin became the prime example of why the policies didn't work, of how removed the Jedi had become from the normal citizens they were meant to serve.

    And of course they didn't deserve what they got, however, 10-year-old Anakin was not the only one who didn't want change. I certainly would have preferred a universe in which they were persuaded in a much less brutal way to adapt.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Adding: and maybe the policy itself and the "one teaching method fits all" approach that they used with Anakin, are two different issues. But I do think the policy itself left them with a lack of experience dealing with someone like Anakin who had a [semi] normal background, and that lack of knowledge hindered their ability to teach or help him.
  6. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    He was. But that's the year I joined; so I'm just being sentimental.

    And you took a hiatus in 2005? The year of ROTS? Oh, my!
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    ROTS was the main reason for my hiatus, and I still turn it off or leave the room after the first 45 minutes of it. It is a well-done film, but there are certain logic flaws (hey, someone has to put the thread back on topic) that were way too much for me at the time.

    But I got over it and I'm back enjoying discussing the rest of the franchise with you fine people.
  8. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    LOL! I forgot you have issues with ROTS.

    I, myself, don't see many logic flaws with it, as you so term them, but everyone draws the line differently.

    Funnier than logic flaws, for me, are what appear to be basic production mistakes, like Plo Koon having the wrong cockpit in the Order 66 sequence, or, when Obi-Wan tells them all to jump down the elevator shaft on the Invisible Hand, as the cab is plummeting and about to hit them, you can see that Palpatine lets go of Anakin's legs, but is magically clinging to them again when they swing through the open door to temporary safety. It's more entertaining when you notice stuff like that; and fun thinking of possible workarounds.

    A lot else of what people pull up as problems, in my opinion, are just so many storms in so many teacups. I mean, yeah, I can completely understand and respect that fans have a diverse set of reactions to each film in the series, and that's totally fine. Where it gets messy is when some presume that they've hit on an indefensible error; and that anyone who attempts to offer an explanation is an apologist by default. Fortunately, I know you don't go in for that thing. TFN is rather unique among sites where individuals can offer subjective views and not be immediately rebuffed purely for liking or not liking a given aspect. Well, usually. :)
  9. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I'll only quote this one post:D , and as a teacher you certainly have more "authority" on teaching methods than I but you are 100% right that they did have a lack of experience dealing with someone like Anakin.

    One could then make the argument that they should not have had to deal with him and Qui-Gon was grossly unfair to both the Council and Anakin. [face_talk_hand]

    I'm not arguing that, but I do think discussing whether the policy was good/bad or fine for them/out of touch really is a different argument than whether that method was correct for Anakin.

    We don't teach to the exception do we? Ideally, we incorporate to the variety within our world, but they didn't have exceptions in their world and their world is what counts.

    OKay, I lied, I'm going to quote this as well (I got interrupted by a phone call):


    So to me it's not that the Order's policies worked for everyone but Anakin, but that Anakin became the prime example of why the policies didn't work, of how removed the Jedi had become from the normal citizens they were meant to serve.


    But how is the Order's failure with Anakin a prime example of what you cite? It's a prime example of how it didn't work with a 9 year old boy plucked from his mother and slavery and by no means is applicable to all boys of all and varying ages plucked from their mothers.

    That's my point, I think, generalizing Anakin to all "real world" people that the Order is "out of touch with" is, IMHO, overgeneralizing from a specific.
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's another topic altogether, and I could go either way on that one. My main question would be, if he weren't trained, would the Sith have found him anyway? If the answer is "yes," I would say that it's better that he was trained, because in the end, it was his Jedi training--along with his love for both Luke and Padme--that helped him find his way back to the light.

    And that is a main part of the issue I have with the PT Jedi: I am accustomed to having to accommodate all areas of exceptions because it is so important to maximize learning for everyone, whereas the Jedi only made room for one "norm", and they got one exception and had no idea what to do with him.

    I think Anakin's having been a slave contributed as much if not more to his mental instability, and his extreme fear of loss, as any other factor in his life. So no, his situation isn't necessarily applicable to any and all boys of his age who might have been separated from their mothers.

    I do wonder how much the Order took into account the fact that Anakin had been a slave, and the effect that would have on him emotionally, however. Or if they were prepared to take that into account at all, if they knew how to address that.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah, usually. The only POV that drives me bats is the "my opinion is better than your opinion" POV or its cousin, "there must be something wrong with you if you see the movie that way." Thankfully that isn't all that prevalent here though.

    And I get why people like ROTS as much as they do; as I said, it is a well done film. I thought a couple of aspects of Anakin's turn were way overdone, and I initially thought those aspects were thrown in the film for the sole purpose of making the "Anakin was too whiny and not Vader enough" crowd happy. A few posters on this message board have shown me that Lucas probably had other reasons for putting those aspects into the story, reasons that fit in with the overall arc. Doesn't make the last half of the film any easier to watch, but I am much less irritated with Lucas than I was in 2005.
  12. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Right you are. And that is so refreshing: the sanctuary that TFN offers. If you feel like being a masochist, spend just five minutes on one of the IMDb prequel boards (the TPM forum is plenty hot at the minute) to see what bashing -- and full-blown trolling -- is all about.

    That's interesting. I struggled with TPM and AOTC back in the day, but I took to ROTS and its epic charms from the first time I saw it (in its first week of general release). I'm glad I got one prequel that drew me in and totally blew me away from the start; and a couple of intriguing warm-up movies that became huge growers. Feels like a good deal; to me.
  13. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Not to break up the philosophy party or anything, but I have a question that's been bugging me since my last ROTS rewatch: How did Padme not know she was carrying twins? Did they not have prenatal care in the GFFA?

    Or was this yet another detail covered in the novelization that I missed because I *cough*haven't read it*cough*?

    ETA: Wait, no, I did read it...but it's been about...six years.
  14. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    That's interesting. I struggled with TPM and AOTC back in the day, but I took to ROTS and its epic charms from the first time I saw it (in its first week of general release). I'm glad I got one prequel that drew me in and totally blew me away from the start; and a couple of intriguing warm-up movies that became huge growers. Feels like a good deal; to me.[/quote]

    I feel the same way, I liked TPM and AOTC but the hate drones almost convinced me they sucked. ROTS blew me away, then the hate spread to that and i knew they were full of crap.

    TPM and AOTC have brought a new sense of appreciation from me, but ROTS is wonderful, wonderful payoff.
  15. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    The novel says that she had ordered her medical droid not to spoil the surprise whether she was carrying a boy or girl. I guess the droid, being literally-minded, didn't tell her she was carrying twins either.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I also assumed it had something to do with the medical droid being told not to reveal the baby's gender; my guess was that the droid did not perform the GFFA equivalent of an ultrasound. The droid being literal-minded, and not being sentient and thinking, "Hey, she might want to know there is more than one baby," would make sense as well.
  17. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    Expecting Anakin to follow the rules that all other Jedi, for thousands of years, behave like a Jedi and not put himself in a position were he would be tempted/vunerable to the darkside is unreasonable?

    THere is no indication that the Jedi don't get it and thats why they lost. They lose because 1 Jedi thought the rules didn't apply to him. They aren't afraid of feeligns and attchments. Jedi are ENCOURAGED to love (from Anakin), and they are put in father/son relatinoships at a young age. That statement is just plain wrong. When Anakin needed help, Yoda helped him. Anakin just didn't want the help Yoda had to offer. People keep making real life teacher/student comparisons. If your student wants you to tell him how to spell a word, and you tell him how to sound it out/look it up for himself, and he chooses not to take the help you've offered, is it your fault or the students? And int he movies and int he clone wars, we've seen many other Jedi in friendships with each other and with other beings. "Good relations witht he Wookies I have" - for example. Qui-Gon was pretty quick to befriend Shmi - another example.
  18. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I agree that the Jedi aren't afraid of feelings and attachments. They're just afraid that both subjects might be used against them by their enemies, especially the Sith. They know that if their enemies knew that whichever Jedi had any family or "secret lovers", then those enemies would either harm that person out of retaliation against the jedi or use that person as hostage/bait to make the Jedi do what they want them to do. Either action would put that Jedi in danger of crossing over to the Dark Side and Anakin is the primary example of what happens when he lets his attachments be used against him by PalpSidious. That's why the Jedi aren't allowed to have families or relationships and why Obi-wan and Yoda didn't want Luke to rescue Han and Leia.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So why couldn't they simply teach the Jedi younglings in advance how to handle such a situation, instead of avoiding such situations altogether? The avoidance reeks of fear, which as I said, is ironic with their constant preaching against fear.

    On the teaching spelling example, a few points: one, not all students are capable of learning how to spell by being told to sound out the word or look it up in the dictionary. I would say that most students of a certain age are able to do so, but we educators are still responsible for teaching spelling to the students who are not capable of learning through that method. We cannot simply write them off as incapable or unwilling to learn to spell--especially if a student has asked how to spell a word, which means he or she obviously wants to learn to spell the word.

    As I said earlier, whether or not the Jedi should have trained Anakin is another debatable topic, but they did choose to train him, therefore, they were responsible for presenting the material in a way that he could understand. The Jedi Order attitude seemed the equivalent of a teacher who has always taught students from upper middle class families, who looks at the learning-disabled student who grew up in poverty and says, "I can't teach him. He won't understand the material if I present it to him the way I present it to my other students, and I don't want to try to find an alternate way to present the material."

    Two, on motivation, before the "Anakin didn't want to" argument gets brought up again: motivation is a part of teaching. When I taught foreign language, I always introduced the course with a lesson on how foreign languages could be used in the "real world"--because when students understand why they are being asked to learn a concept, they are more motivated to learn it. I could have skipped that lesson and simply said "You're going to learn this because I said you are going to learn it and I'm the one who controls your grades," but what would be the point in that, unless I had some complex in which I needed to flex my authoritative muscles?

    Now the need to learn emotional control is obvious; Anakin knew he needed to learn it, and said as much. The need to cut off/avoid all familial attachments in order to learn emotional control? I can't blame him for not getting why he needed to do that, because I don't get it either. If attachments lead directly to a lack of emotional control, 95 percent of the world would be completely out of control emotionally, and that isn't the case. I think the police officers and soldiers examples were brought up before--they arguably have a greater need for emotional control than the rest of us, but no one has told police officers and soldiers that they must cut off all contact with their families. I work with upwards of 200 children in any given day, I would certainly say that my profession requires emotional control, but I've never been told that I have to give up my husband and kids, or stop talking to my parents, in order to keep my job. As far as I know, Catholic priests are the only professionals who are told they can't marry, and as the PP mentioned, the priesthood is not exactly an order the Jedi should emulate.

    I will add that Palpatine undermined the Jedi and Anakin himself in his motivation to learn emotional control, by convincing him that anger was a good thing. And that is where I laid the blame at Anakin's feet earlier--he trusted the wrong people.

    Three, what Yoda did in ROTS was not teaching, it was telling Anakin what to do with no instruction whatsoever on how to do it. My split second reaction the first time I heard Yoda utter the words "Train yourself to let go of all you fear to lose" was, "And how the hell are those of us who are under the age of 9
  20. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    I do not agree, to me the Jedi did seem afraid of certain feelings and attachments, hence why they were so adamant in making sure attachments did not happen among them.
    As for the rule being to protect the jedi from blackmail or retaliation. First, before TPM the Jedi thought the Sith were all long since dead, so why have a rule dealing with a threat that no longer exists?
    Second, if a Jedi can be blackmailed so can a senator or other public official. So if this is the reason then surely ALL senators should be forbidden to marry or have children. They have more power than the Jedi order, the senate makes the rules and laws, the Jedi simply serve the senate.

    Anakins was scolded for being afraid to loose his mother, that fear is the same wheter she would be killed by gangsters or died in an accident or illness. If fear of loss can bring a person to the dark side then it does not matter how that loss occurs. If a wife/husband/child dies in a tragic accident or is killed by mobsters, the end result is still loss and the Jedi can get angry and turn. So to prevent that, no Jedi is allowed a family or even contact or memories of their parents.

    Regards
    Nordom

  21. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I think Anakin's having been a slave contributed as much if not more to his mental instability, and his extreme fear of loss, as any other factor in his life.


    Anakin was no more mentally unstable than the other characters. He made several bad decisions, due to his penchant for clinging to those he cared for. He was no more different than Padme, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, etc. All of them made bad decisions, due to their emotional attachments.

    This idea that because of some special personality trait, Anakin was more inclined to evil than the other characters does not hold water with me. Anyone of them could have followed his path, if the circumstances had been right. In fact, most of them made decisions that ended up costing them dearly, anyway.

    Not only was this the case in the SW saga, this is true of any human being.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    No, I was still here in 05. I began my hiatus in November of 07 as I was just burned out. I have popped up here and there, but not for long. With the 3D release, I've chosen to come back for a while. And yes, I remember you, Cryogenic.


    No. What brought Anakin to Palpatine's attention was that he helped with the victory at Naboo. The knowledge that a boy managed to do the impossible piqued his interest, but he was aware of the fact that the Chosen One was foretold. Something he admitted to Yoda in the novelization. Once he put together who the boy was and what his Master had claimed to have achieved, he made a point in digging his claws into him.

    And that is a main part of the issue I have with the PT Jedi: I am accustomed to having to accommodate all areas of exceptions because it is so important to maximize learning for everyone, whereas the Jedi only made room for one "norm", and they got one exception and had no idea what to do with him.[/quote]

    The problem is that they could've succeeded with Anakin had it not be for Palpatine's thirteen years of influence. He was undermining everything that Obi-wan had taught him about right and wrong and thus Vader is the end result. Note that Luke is free and clear of the Sith influence before his training and even afterwards, he's been strengthened by his mentors and his family.

    I think Anakin's having been a slave contributed as much if not more to his mental instability, and his extreme fear of loss, as any other factor in his life. So no, his situation isn't necessarily applicable to any and all boys of his age who might have been separated from their mothers.

    I do wonder how much the Order took into account the fact that Anakin had been a slave, and the effect that would have on him emotionally, however. Or if they were prepared to take that into account at all, if they knew how to address that.[/quote]

    Difficult to say. Obi-wan was well aware of Anakin's issues and did his best to try and reach out to him. And when he figured out the relationship that he had with Padme, he turned a blind eye hoping that she could reach him, where he couldn't.


  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think Anakin had a "special personality trait" that made him more prone to "evil," however, I do think he was insane by the midpoint of ROTS, with several factors having contributed to driving him that way. The primary factor was Palpatine being so very good at manipulating Anakin's mind, but other factors include his childhood in slavery, his being taken from his mother at the age of 10 and leaving her in slavery, her death in such a brutal manner (and his having seen her death in visions and not acting on the visions), and the war.

    So no, physiologically Anakin was no different from any of the other humans you mentioned, and what happened to him could happen to any of us under the same circumstances. But Obi-Wan, Yoda and Padme were right--by Mustafar, he was no longer the Anakin they knew.

    That might be true, but I do wonder how and why Anakin came to trust Palpatine so much more than the Jedi.

    This is true, and there are examples in the movies and more in the novelizations in which the Council did not listen to Obi-Wan. In the ROTS novelization, he tried to warn the Council that assigning Anakin to spy on Palpatine would go over like a ton of duracrete. If only the Council had listened.

    Without having read much pre-TPM EU, I understand that the Jedi might have been traumatized at some point, leading them to enact such a policy--and I realize that they were doing what they thought was best. But the policy itself is still extreme overkill and in the end, counterproductive. I'm reading the Plagueis novel now and yes, the Sith evolved, whereas the Jedi stayed stagnant and dogmatic for so long that it became all too easy for the Sith to figure out their weak points and exploit them.

    My point in posting that Yoda quote earlier was that the mindset of some posters appears to be that the Jedi would have lived happily ever after if Anakin had just been a good boy and played along, and to me it was nowhere near that simple. (And if it were, I would find Star Wars extremely boring.) As the Plagueis novel corroborates, the Sith were exploiting the Jedi long before Palpatine had heard of Anakin. Palpatine was already making his moves, and would have enacted his "Grand Plan"
  24. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    I think it's simply that one of them was willing to tell Anakin what he wanted to hear. Two guesses whom that may have been.
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There is truth to that, but this is also another case in which I don't think it was quite that simple.

    Every day children trust their parents or parent-figures even when they are not constantly told what they want to hear. Even when they have other people in their lives who are willing/eager to tell them what they want to hear.

    If human psychology worked such that telling a person what he/she wants to hear, automatically earns his or her trust, then all spoiled/indulged children would have great relationships with their parents. Slack teachers would be the most popular teachers in the school, as opposed to (generally) being the least respected. And that isn't the case.

    There has been debate on these boards as to whether Anakin would have so easily turned to Palpatine if Qui-Gon had lived, and I don't have a hard-and-fast opinion on the subject but the question is worth asking. Anakin trusted Qui-Gon. And Qui-Gon didn't tell Anakin exactly what Anakin wanted to hear even in the short time that they knew each other.
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