PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. PMT99 Jedi Master

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    Why put the younglings in that position at all? They have nothing to lose so they have nothing to fear. To inform the younglings that they will experience fear of loss would be most unwise for that would cause the younglings to panic constantly which puts them all in danger of turning to the Dark Side. The Jedi Council can't afford to have hundreds of mini-Anakins on their hands which is, again, why the Jedi created that "no-attachment" policy in the first place.

  2. son_of_skywalker03 Jedi Master

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    Well, I may have put it a little more simplistically than how it was. Yes, Anakin's trust of the characters had a lot to do with it. The Council rejected him right off the bat. Palpatine showed interest immediately. We also know that the Council continued to be less than warm when it came to Anakin, all the way to the end. Admittedly, some of it was Anakin's own fault, but he would never really be one to see it that way. Conversely, Palpatine was always willing to listen to Anakin, and was very warm towards him. Including the whole "telling him what he wanted to hear." Clearly these things had an effect.
  3. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    Really? Fear of loss is a fact of life. Every human (or in Star Wars, every sentient) experiences it. If what you say is true, every human should be in a constant state of panic.

    And if all of us can handle fear of loss--even small children (my own children have experienced it)--there is no reason to think that Jedi younglings should be in a "constant state of panic." Unless Jedi younglings are far more emotional than the most emotional humans in the real world.

    Yes, and Anakin's pride was one of his biggest mistakes, and I think Anakin blamed himself for not acting on his visions of his mother sooner (and honestly I can't blame him, I'd feel the same way, although I don't think Obi-Wan did or said anything wrong). I didn't see Yoda's "advice" as helpful at all, though, especially given the fact that he offered no information on how to "let go of all you fear to lose."

    As I said, my immediate reaction upon seeing that scene was, "Do what?" And I'm not the one having visions.

    I agree. Which is why I see the profuse-on-criticism, low-on-praise attitude of the Council as a problem. If for no other reason, Palpatine exploited it.

    The Jedi Council's constant rejection--your words--left Anakin to believe that the Jedi were not really interested in helping him; they were only interested in making him conform. And I can't blame him for feeling that way. As I've mentioned, I didn't see that they offered him much help. Obi-Wan offered some, the rest of them offered nothing useful to anyone less Zen than Yoda himself.

    This again goes back to trust. It is human nature to distrust people who constantly reject you, even if (arguably) that rejection is only in your mind. I think that Anakin felt that Obi-Wan cared for him, but felt that the rest of the Jedi, particularly Yoda and Mace, thought of him as something smelly stuck to the bottom of their boots. In the novelization, when Anakin went to Yoda--his reasoning being that he thought of Yoda as being the wisest of all the Jedi and therefore would certainly be able to offer him the help he needed--he was surprised when Yoda invited him in, offered him a pod, and suggested that they meditate together. His thought was that Yoda normally acted annoyed at Anakin's very existence, and this simple act of kindness on Yoda's part, the willingness to listen, almost drove Anakin to tears.

    How did it get to that point? The point of Anakin being that desperate for any type of positive attention from the people who were supposed to be his family? When I first saw the film, I was surprised that Anakin went to Yoda for advice at all.

    My point is that it was not as simple as Yoda genuinely trying to help and Anakin only wanting help on his terms. I think Yoda was trying to help, but he had no idea how to present that help in a way that would make sense to Anakin. He thought he could tell Anakin to "train yourself to let go of all you fear to lose" and Anakin would just know how to do that.

    If compassion is central to a Jedi's life, then "caring too much" isn't possible.

    What is possible is having a family without losi
  4. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Obi-Wan didn't get much praise from his Master or the Council but he didn't Fall.
  5. son_of_skywalker03 Jedi Master

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    It was never really about "praise." Anakin felt as if the Jedi Council didn't trust or even want him. Which isn't exactly an unfounded feeling on his part.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    As I see it, Anakin had different needs, again going back to his slave background and how once being property affected his image as a person. And while I've avoided the Jedi Apprentice series and don't have details on Obi-Wan's training, if he didn't get much praise (meaning genuine acknowledgement of his accomplishments, as opposed to the flattery for flattery's sake that Palpatine gave Anakin), then maybe Qui-Gon was wrong on that.

    Acknowledging a child/apprentice's accomplishments costs nothing, and there is really no excuse not to do it.

    Exactly, and that was how Palpatine was able to exploit him.
  7. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    I agree that the Jedi should've varied teaching styles but it doesn't change my point. No, it wouldn't have harmed the Jedi to be a bit more sympathetic but it wouldn't have hurt Anakin any to be more respectful to his teachers and their rules, either.
  8. son_of_skywalker03 Jedi Master

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    I think that's kinda the point.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    Maybe we're talking about two different things here, but I would have a very hard time respecting a "rule" that said I wasn't allowed to miss my mother or fall in love either. Actions can be regulated, I can think of few things more totalitarian than dictating how someone is allowed to feel. Now if the argument is going to be made that Anakin should have left the Order when he married Padme--I agree, to a point. But that's another discussion.

    If you're talking about Anakin talking back to Obi-Wan in AOTC, again I agree to a point, but that's pretty minor compared to the larger issue we're discussing here.

    And I'm sure I'll get lit on fire for this one, but respect does have to be earned--and it is not earned by treating someone as if his very existence annoys you. If I made a student feel that way, I could not expect him or her to respect me in return. Respect me for what? My existence as an older person?

    (And obviously Anakin did respect Yoda, or he would not have gone to him for help in the first place. He respected Mace, which is why he took the information to him about Palpatine being Sidious. And he respected Obi-Wan--one example of many, according to the ROTS novelization, when Palpatine revealed his true identity, the first person Anakin asked for after leaving his office was Obi-Wan. He was told by Mace that Obi-Wan couldn't be reached.)
  10. Sistros Jedi Master

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    Disagree with that,

    my personal philosophy is you respect everyone until they give you a reasoon otherwise, bt that is neither here nor there,

    If Anakin found the rules stupid shouldn't he have left the order?

    was he condisioned by a contract that forbade him to quit?

  11. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    To me, being treated like something smelly found on the bottom of someone's shoe is "reason otherwise." Obi-Wan didn't treat Anakin that way, but in many parts of the films and the novelization, Mace and Yoda did.

    My point is not that it's OK to treat someone disrespectfully until he or she has earned respect. My point is that after someone has treated another person disrespectfully, he or she does not continue to earn respect simply for being older, in an authority position, or on the Jedi Council.

    All that said, I don't really want to continue a "He should have been respectful first!" or "They should have been respectful first!" argument. That would be pointless. There are points where Anakin should have held his tongue (or at least presented his case more politely), and there are points in which they could have acknowledged that he was a human being who was allowed an opinion. Nobody was completely right here.

    Again, another discussion. And my answer would be "maybe."

    Another question I would add is, wouldn't the Sith have found him anyway?

    I lean towards thinking that he should have left the Order so that he could have rescued his mother sooner, possibly saving her life, and so that he and Padme would not have had to keep their relationship a secret.

    However, even if the Thoughts and Feelings Regulations had had no affect whatsoever on Anakin, I would still find them totalitarian, unrealistic, and chock full of the irony of (paraphrasing FDR) being full of fear of fear itself.
  12. Sistros Jedi Master

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    Jul 24, 2010
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    no ones asking you to, I was saying I don't believe in the respect is earned as a whole, not in regards who is or isn't nice to Anakin.


    Reagarding Mace Windu he isn't nice to anyone, he was a bit snippy to Palpatine in AOTC for no reason in parts

  13. PMT99 Jedi Master

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    Nov 23, 2000
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    Not everyone can handle fear of loss. Bruce Wayne couldn't handle losing his parents so he became the Batman as a result. Simba couldn't handle losing his father, Mufasa so he runs away into the desert and Bobbi Kristina Brown couldn't handle losing her mother, Whitney Houston which is why she's been in the hospital twice. Children cannot handle such emotional turmoil which is why parents tend to shield their kids from knowing about the harsh realities of life and why the Jedi never let their younglings know the fear of loss.


    Noone wants to hear another person say that you have to let go after someone they loved has died. We all wished that there was a way to bring that person back but the cold reality is that there isn't so we all have to find the strength to get on with our lives. That is what Yoda was trying to tell Anakin but he was unwilling to listen nor does he want to move on so he sold his soul to the Devil and became the galaxy's biggest bully.

    First off, the fact that Anakin is constantly breaking the rules, disobeying both Obi-wan and the Council, and sneaking his marriage to Padme behind their backs
  14. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    Since fear of loss is part of life, shouldn't everyone be taught how to handle it? Isolation does not solve the problem.

    What are you talking about? There are entire books out there to help children cope when a family member or even a pet dies. Parents can't shield their children from such realities.

    Your post is in no way helping me follow why the Jedi were "perfect" in their policy of avoiding reality/creating their own as opposed to dealing with the one that existed. And if they had done the latter, they would have known how to help Anakin.

    Chicken or the egg. The Jedi rejected Anakin before they had ever broken a single one of their "rules," unless missing his mother and being 10 years old was considered a "rule." They had no clue he was married to Padme.

    Not necessarily, particularly if that person was a member of my family or was supposed to be treated like one.

    Sure, but are you really assuming that Yoda could just tell Anakin to do that and he could simply flip a switch and make it happen? That's not realistic. As I said, there was no instructions in Yoda's speech on how to do it.

    You're making my point for me. If Anakin had not had to hide his marriage from the Jedi, he could have discussed with them his fears of losing her and he would not have felt he had to go to Palpatine. In the EU, a married Jedi, Nejaa Halcyon, was helpful to Anakin. It's too bad there were not more members of his Jedi family that he felt he could trust with his own realities.

    How is your statement supposed to show me that the rule against marriage was the right one?

    Not if they taught the Jedi how to handle attachments and put the good of the galaxy first. That's what they should have done--as I said, dealt with the realities of how humans/sentients behave, as opposed to trying to create their own reality in a bubble.

    As far as Luke, in the end he was able to handle his attachments, and his compassion for his father saved both of them. If Yoda had behaved as he did in the PT, he would have told Luke that he was no longer allowed to be a Jedi after he went to Bespin. And what good would that have done?
  15. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Far as the films go Luke didn't get any training post-Bespin, so I fail to see your point. It's amazing he did as well as he did given he wasn't even properly or fully trained.
  16. Nordom Jedi Padawan

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    From what you just said it makes NO sense for the Jedi to allow anyone to leave the order. Take a fully trained Jedi, he meets someone, falls in love and wants to marry her. Since the rules forbid it, he leaves to order. They have children but then some mobster wants to have a Jedi do something for him and takes his familiy and blackmails him. Say that it ends badly and the family is killed and in a rage, the Jedi turns. So how can the jedi forbid active Jedi to marry but be fine with ex jedi marrying?
    If the Jedi are serious with their rules then they would never let a jedi leave to have a family because of what you just said. Jedi would not even be allowed to simply leave because how would the Jedi Order know they did not abuse their power in some way? If the danger is as great as you say then failed Jedi or ex Jedi would not be allowed. Prison is likely or drugs to supress their Force ability or perhaps even death.

    In any event I think you overstate a Jedi's power. As the movies show, trained Jedi are no match against a large military force, they die same as anyone else. One Jedi or even hundreds of Jedi can not fight whole armies by themselves. The big reason Palpatine won is becasue of how he used the political system, only when attacked directly did he use his Force powers. In fact much of what he did could have been done by anyone. Manipulating the senate, ordering a clone army, creating a fake war, none of that required direct Force powers. A political leader can start wars and kill millions, esp if they have massive weapons like say a DS.

    The big reason why I feel Anakin became a walking disaster, your word, is suppresion of emotions. Anakin had simply been told to get rid of certain emotions but he did not know how. So instead he tried to bury those feelings deep down but they were still there. And instead of growing out of his attachment to his mother, as most children do, that attachment festered inside him and became something else entierly. He had tried to bottle up his emotions but when hsi mother was killed it ALL came out. And instead of Anakin being in control of his emotions, his emotions controlled him. If he instead had been given help to let go or better yet, that the jedi had freed his mother and he had been allowed an occasional letter or phonecall, he could have let go of her and not reacted so badly when she died.
    On the other hand, his attachments allowed him to break his chains and save his son. So one could say that Anakins attachments brought him down but they also allowed him to climb back up and regain his soul and find peace.
    Also this why Luke was the only one who thought that Anakin could be saved while Obi-Wan and Yoda had given up. He saw more then they did and perhaps FELT more than they did.


    Humans, even children, can deal with loss and fear of loss, that does not mean everyone always WILL. But the large majority of people can and have dealt with loss without going nuts or getting traumatised. Take the world today and everyone in it. How many do you think have lost someone?
    A parent, a grandparent, a relative, a child, a loved one, a friend, a co-worker, a pet? I would say a large majority. And sure some of them mi
  17. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    Yoda didn't make him surrender his lightsaber. He simply told him that he had all the training he needed.

    I think the fact that Luke did as well as he did, arguably better than any other Jedi, in spite of being deliberately sent to his family (as opposed to kept from them) and not trained at all prior to age 18, is proof that the old Jedi rules were unnecessary at best.

    I meant to add this morning regarding Obi-Wan's statements to Anakin in AOTC vs Yoda's statements in ROTS: Obi-Wan put the issue in terms that Anakin could understand, and therefore Anakin received the information. That's part of good teaching. Obi-Wan, unlike the Council, worked with the Anakin that existed as opposed to trying to create from Anakin the mystical "Chosen One" that they wanted. Yoda in ROTS either was unable to frame the issue in terms that Anakin could relate to, or did not want to bother. I wish someone had asked Anakin, "Would Padme want you to turn Sith to save her? What would Padme do if she had a vision of you dying?"

    And Nordom, excellent post. :)
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    That's because he was now Darth Vader and as the Jedi of that era saw it, once you turned, there was no hope in coming back. The failures throughout had proved that. That's why Luke refuses to accept their analysis of his father, when he alone felt the good within him.

    As noted, he told Anakin what he wanted to hear whereas Obi-wan told him what he needed to hear. It also helped that he didn't see Palpatine as a politician, crooked or otherwise, who had his own agenda as Obi-wan had. He saw Palpatine as a kindly old man who took great interest in the boy who had liberated his world. That's why he and Obi-wan had all those discussions about politics over the ten years they had been together, going into AOTC.

    That's because they still believed that Anakin would do his duty as a Jedi. They only became disillusioned with him based on his outburst in the Council chambers. They had underestimated the influence that Palpatine had on him.

    Hence we have the PT. It is also why Yoda's thoughts in the novelization center around the fact that he knew that he had already lost and that the loss stemmed back to before he was born. You should also read the Darth Bane novels, especially the second one as you get to see the beginnings of this transition in the Jedi training.

    Indeed. Stopping the Sith was only part of the equation and that would've solved certain issues earlier than they had. The real problems had to do with everything else. That's why in the previous wars with the Sith, when the Sith were able to attack the Temple, they did hurt the Jedi in a critical way. But not enough to the point that when Sidious did it, it had a major impact that changed things for the better.

    Possible. Though Dooku himself had wanted power which extended b
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The Jedi are not that dominating. Whatever the reason that 19 of the Lost 20 had for leaving, it was for reasons that didn't lead them to the dark side. Nor was there any danger in it. That's why the Jedi Council didn't object hard, nor take extreme measures. According to their belief about Dooku when he left, they believed that whatever path he chose once he walked out of the Temple for the last time, he was not going to be a danger to the Republic or the Jedi. That's why when he resurfaced nine years later, they saw him as being a political idealist and not a potential threat. They figured that his reasons for his public speeches was not to incite war, but to take a stronger stance with negotiating with the Republic.


    The Sith did that two thousand years ago when they managed to dominate most of the Republic with their Empire. But the power of the Force allows them to take more active involvement in dominating the Jedi and the Republic. Plagueis and Sidious chose to use internal politics to their advantage, which was different from the norm.

    Anakin's problem was that he feared change. He was afraid of it which is why Shmi told him that he cannot fight change and why Padme said that many things will change, but she won't stop caring for him. The problem is that Anakin had trouble reconciling this and it's why he fought so hard to keep his attachments. In AOTC, he talks about his memories of Naboo from the few days that he was there, ten years earlier. He's living in the past in that regard. He wants things to be like they were and not like they are now. This continues later when he finds himself at his most happie
  20. Darthbane2007 Jedi Knight

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    Here is another bout of logic i wonder:

    1. Why were the jedi so quick to rush to palpatine's office so that he gives up the emergency powers? Even though dooku and grievous dead, you still have nute gunray and the rest of the CIS council still alive and in control of a droid army..

    2. Based on the word of a single jedi, one that he never even liked Mace and his posse just stride in palpatine's office with sabers lit? Did they have any guarentee that he would show his sith powers in front of them?
  21. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Anakinfan: You're assuming I agree with all the Old Republic Jedi rules. I've never said any such thing.


  22. DRush76 Jedi Master

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    I agree that the Jedi should've varied teaching styles but it doesn't change my point. No, it wouldn't have harmed the Jedi to be a bit more sympathetic but it wouldn't have hurt Anakin any to be more respectful to his teachers and their rules, either.


    It's odd that you would say this. Because after seeing TPM, I noticed that Obi-Wan had as much trouble in accepting Qui-Gon's wisdom, as Anakin had in accepting his wisdom.


    Obi-Wan didn't get much praise from his Master or the Council but he didn't Fall.

    He fell. They all did. Only the level of their fall was not at the same level as Anakin's.



    The problem with the Jedi when it came to attachment is that they really didn't know how to handle it. If they did, they would not have handled Palpatine's rise in power so badly. The Jedi never told Anakin or any of their acolytes on how to deal with attachments and loss. Instead, they created a rule about attachments and demanded that all Order members follow that rule.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    My fault. I made assumptions based on your comments about Anakin's lack of respect for the rules.

    Exactly, which has been part of my point all along.

    If the Jedi had allowed normal familial relationships, they would have known how to handle them, and would have been able to teach Anakin how to handle his. Anakin's issues going back to his days as a slave would have been there, but Anakin would have felt he were able to take the Jedi into his confidence if he knew he wouldn't be condemned/judged for missing his mother or being in love with Padme. And if he could have taken them into his confidence, they would have been in a better position to help him. As it was, he confided in Palpatine.

    Plus, if the Jedi really knew what the average person feels when a loved one dies or is dying, they would have been more sympathetic towards Anakin. And even more than allowing Anakin to be open in his marriage with Padme, I think allowing contact with Shmi would have made all the difference in the galaxy.

    I think part of the disagreement in this discussion is a differentiation in focus: one focus being on how Anakin should have followed "the rules," with the inherent assumption that "the rules" were a good thing and everything would have been hunky-dory for everyone if Anakin had just followed them. Whereas my take is that Anakin's obedience is not the issue when "the rules" are neither realistic for someone who has had a semblance of a normal upbringing, nor good for the Order or the galaxy as a whole.

    And then there are a few focus points in between, with Dooku-Darklighter, darth-sinister and Valairy_Scot's posts coming to mind.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Because as Qui-gon said in TPM, the Trade Federation and by extension the others, were cowards. They never had the guts to do what needed to be done and the real power was the Sith and Grievous.

    They went because Anakin was sent to observe Palpatine for suspicious behavior and he comes back revealing that he's a Sith Lord. Mace believed him because as he says a moment later, he senses a lot of confusion in Anakin's mind. A confusion that wouldn't exist if it wasn't true. They went because it was time to put an end to this charade.
  25. Nordom Jedi Padawan

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    The Jedi ARE dominating. They dictate VERY strict rules to live by. You can have NO contact or even memory of your parents, you are not allowed to marry or have children. I do not know about you but it is pretty dominating to me.

    The issue is the Jedi rules. If the rules say that an active Jedi can not marry, have children or a family for fear of them turning then it makes no sense to ALLOW ex-jedi to have all that. If having a wife/husband/children is such a danger to force users then it does not matter if that person is an active or retired jedi. The fear of loss and possibility of turning is still there. So IF these rules exist to prevent Jedi from turning then the Jedi Order would not allow ex-jedi to marry or even leave. Afterall, even if they did not say that they leave to get marrried, such a thing could happen. Then they would have to keep spying on their former members to make sure they did not get involved with someone. And if the Jedi trust their former members to marry and have children and handle it safely, then why not allow their active members to do the same? If ex-Jedi can be trusted not to get too attached then surely active Jedi would merit the same trust?
    The rules the Jedi have either means they can not trust their members to handle certain emotions or they can not teach them how to handle them. Either way, it indicates a lack of trust. So how can ex-jedi suddenly be trusted with this?

    Also, what do the Jedi do with those that show that they are unsuitable to be a jedi? Since the children are taken in so early, they can not test for such things. But say that after ten years the Padawan either shows a lack of controll or can't learn very basic things or even gets too angry or full of fear too often. What happens to them? Would a jedi just let a half-trained teenager walk away? When that is a dangerous time as was said in ESB? I think the Jedi would take steps.


    I am not sure of your point. Did the sith back in the day not use any armies and they only had themselves?
    One or two Force users can not conquer a galaxy by themselves, they need soldiers, allies, servants.
    A powerfull leader who controll a huge army can be very destructive if they so choose.

    Take the OT and remove Vader and Palpatine from the empire and instead we have somone like Tarkin in charge.
    Then we have Luke, fully trained as a Jedi. Could Luke, BY HIMSELF, defeat the entire Empire? I very much doubt it.
    A Jedi getting blackmailed could be bad sure but if the chancellor was blackmailed it would be even worse.


    That is not how I see it. In TPM he was afraid to loose his mother, which is a very normal feeling for a child that age. It was not change as such that he was afraid of, but loosing his mother. If he feared change so much why did he go with Qui-Gon?
    That is a HUGE change, he leaves his home, his mother and his planet and goes with someone he barely knows to become a Jedi.
    Even before Anakin talked about visiting every planet in the galaxy, again does not sound like someone who is afaraid of change.
    Such a person would not want to leave home or stop being what they are. Anakin clearly wants to see new things and go places and have new experiences.
    His mother has been a stable comfort and love in his l
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