PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    No more than the rules most religious orders have regarding one who becomes a part of that order like a priest, a monk or a nun. And since the Jedi Order is a bit of a religious order, it is to be expected.

    We don't know much of anything about the nineteen who left before Dooku, except for Darth Ruin. We don't know if they married or not, if they had children or not or outside of the two mentioned, went rogue or not. They might've all continued to live a life without any of those weaknesses occurring. But the Jedi Council did give trust to members of the Order, while they were a part of it. And they would continue afterwards, such as we saw with Dooku when he left. They trusted them to adhere to the principles of the Jedi Code both within and outside of the Temple walls.

    According to "Jedi Apprentice", a Padawan who has not been accepted by a Knight or an experienced Master by age thirteen, will serve the Republic as part of the AgriCorps. Essentially becoming farmers. Obi-wan almost joined them because he still had some anger issues which wasn't dangerous, but was not what Qui-gon was looking for after his last Apprentice. It was through the intervention of Yoda, that they were paired up on the same transport which then led them to become an official Master/Padawan team. The Jedi would keep an eye on them to determine if they were continuing to behave.

    They were predominately a huge army of Sith Lords, thousands upon thousands. There were probably some droids and allies like the Mandalorians, but it was mostly the Sith. The Jedi allied themselves with Republic commandos and military officers and when necessary, local resistance cells.

  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    On religious orders--I don't know any who accept members prior to adulthood. I think the rule forbidding Catholic priests from marrying is ridiculous, but as far as I know, potential priests must be at least 18 and therefore capable of understanding the ramifications of their commitment far more than Anakin was at age 10. The armed services, whose commitments only involve temporary separations from family, also do not accept children--much less demand that initiates be so young that they have no memories outside the organization. If the Jedi functioned more like a real-world religious or military order or even boarding school, my opinion would be different.

    As far as Anakin not leaving when he married Padme--again I might argue that he should have, but Karen Traviss in No Prisoners addresses a point similar to that made by Nordom: Anakin said that if he left, his Force abilities would not disappear, that they were as much a part of him as his blood; therefore he and Padme both felt he should stay in the organization that allowed him to use them best. And to me that does make sense, particularly given that Ki-Adi Mundi's marriage did not cause him to turn.
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Most nuns cannot drink, smoke, have sex and other virtues that are sins. Some monks do not talk either, having taken a vow to not so so. That's my point. Religious orders all have their own strict rules. Anakin's ordeal was unique because it was the first time in a thousand years that they had dealt with someone his age, compared to most everyone else.

    Hindsight was 20/20 as in the end, his marriage did affect his actions. Luke was married and it didn't affect him as badly as it could've when Mara died. Jacen and Dooku weren't married and look at what they did. Qui-gon wasn't married and yet almost lost it when Tahl died.

    But the commonality was attachment, which marriage is considered the ultimate symbol of it.
  4. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    And how many religious orders today take people when they are infants? An adult person making a CHOICE to join an organisation is one thing, a person taken when they can't possible have any say in the matter is another.
    Also a monk could choose to leave and then be able to drink or have sex freely. An Ex Jedi should not be allowed to if the risk of turning is so great.


    "Will" serve? Does that mean they MUST? So these people that proved unfit to be Jedi are "forced" to become farmers?
    Can't they go back to their families or do something else with their lives?

    AotC shows differently, there the Jedi were outnumbered to be sure but not by that much. One Jedi was killed by Jango alone.

    Unless the chancellor happens to have an army that will do whatever he commands, then he can simply order the army to kill all those against him. And the single dark Jedi could be killed by two three other jedi.

    Regards
    Nordom
  5. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    How many infants are baptized and raised with the indoctrination that if they break any of their religious order's rules they can/will go to Hell? It's not a 1 for 1 comparison, but it's pretty close. Especially when you factor in boarding schools that are privately run by a religious institution.

    You don't just "leave" these things. Especially at a young age.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    IMO both that type of indoctrination and Jedi Order indoctrination are unacceptable and unhealthy.

    If an organization has to take members as infants so that they know no other way than that organization's way in order to function, that doesn't say much for the health of the organization. A well-functioning organization could recruit members without brainwashing and indoctrination. Regarding the "well it WORKED" argument regarding the Jedi, I'd say a real test as to how well it worked, would be how well it could recruit and keep members who actually knew a different life.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    son_of_skywalker answered part of this for me.

    True. Now, in terms of what it is Nordom was asking about, children aren't brought in to become priests, nuns, ministers and rabbis right off. But as noted, they are given the spiritual indoctrination with baptism or in the Jewish faith, the bris ceremony for males. Then there's the Bar Mitzvah that's to indication the passage into adulthood and Confirmation for Catholics. They don't have a choice when they're babies and as young teens, not much either. The reason Jedi do it stems from their powers and the danger that comes with it. Here, in this regard, it is more akin to the martial arts where it's preferred that you're trained early in order to truly master your craft.

    Or military schools. Hell, the military in general doesn't allow people to just simply walk away.

    Nope. With organized religion, you can stop going yes, but to totally break away from it, it's not that easy. Military wise, you can ask for a discharge, but it's up to the commanding officers to grant it or not. You cannot simply go AWOL.

    Look at organized religion as a whole.

    That all depends on if the former Jedi chooses to walk that path when they leave. From the Jedi's point of view, when Dooku left, he didn't do that.

    Nope. They're given their assignment, allowed to pack their things and are put on a transport to where they are assigned to. That's what Obi-wan had done when he was sent to Bandomeer. He was not allowed the right to return to his family.

    They were fighting multiple Battle Droids, Super Battle Droids, Droidekas, Geonosisan warriors and two beasts. There were one hundred Jedi in the arena. That's why the odds became overwhelming.

    A Jedi who wasn't much of a fighter to begin with.

    Fortunate that the Republic doesn't usually have an army to do that. And has to have consent from the Senate to do that. And we've seen what Dark Jedi and Sith Lords can do.


    And yet it continues and if you were to believe them, it is healthy.

    If we discuss just religion in general, it would be more difficult because that person won't have those particular beliefs and a desir
  8. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    I highly doubt that there were only 20 Jedi out of what must have been thousands of jedi over a 25,000 year period to ever leave the order. And

    Anyway, some other logic questions that may have been answered already:

    1. I may have mentioned this pages and pages back, but why in the holy depths of the force does mace take over 200 jedi with him just to save Anakin & Obi-Wan ( Other than if they are not saved, then the Original Trilogy goes bye bye)? he said at the beginning of the movie, that there aren't enough jedi to protect the republic. Plus, Obi-Wan said it in his message which was heard by Anakin/Padme, himself, a few other jedi, palpatine, and senators that the trade federation was to pick up their DROID ARMY from geonosis, with the Commerce Guilds & Corporate Alliance pledging their DROID ARMIES. I'm pretty sure whether or not people swinging laserswords will persuade them to stop..

  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    But with rare exceptions (Dooku), the people being brainwashed or indoctrinated are going to think the tenants of the organization which is brainwashing/indoctrinating them, are healthy.

    But if they really were, no brainwashing or indoctrination would be needed.

    My point on the Jedi Order is that of course the younglings who were raised in the Temple believed in the "no attachment" philosophy and blindly accepted that "attachment leads to the Dark Side." They had had that drilled into them since birth, similar to the way that fundamentalist Christians have it drilled into them that if they don't follow the doctrine of the church, they will go to hell. Presenting various points of view and allowing choice is always better.

    And I actually have no problem with religion, only the idea prevalent among some religious folks that only one path is the "right" one and others lead to hell.
  10. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    And if we use this idea. What do Jedi do with Force sensitive children that the parents do not want to give up?
    If there are Sith around, would they leave these force sensitives to perhaps be taken by the sith? Surely not.
    Even with no Sith, these children can pick up some things by themselves and start abusing their powers. Go to hell as you say. So given this, parents would not have a choice to give up their children. And as far as the films go, we are never told if parents are given a choice or not.

    And again my original point was that banning marriage and children for ACTIVE Jedi but allowing it for RETIRED Jedi makes no sense. The rules apply wheter you are in the order or not.

    Military does not take in infants and many contries in the world have laws that ban child armies.

    And I have actually been questioning that the Jedi would not just let former members walk away just like that.
    Given their very strict rules, it makes no sense to say "Active Jedi can not marry, have families or children. But ex Jedi can marry and have as many children as they like, knock yourself out." That is my point. With these rules and the Jedi orders lack of trust that the Jedi can handle these things, they would not let ex Jedi marry or have children.
    Simply because you leave the order does not mean your Force powers go away. And the risk of turning does not vanish once you are not an active Jedi.

    And unless they spy on all their former members the Jedi would have no way of knowing what the ex-jedi will or won't do.
    So again the Jedi would not let people go just like that.

    Didn't the film say that there were 200 odd Jedi on Coruscant? And if a Jedi can take on 100 warriors there would have to be over 20 000 droids in the arena and it was not that many. Either way, put jedi up against a large army and they loose. Esp if that army has massive weapons. Take one ISD in space and 10 000 Jedi all in one field. The ISD can simply bombard that field with their weapons and the Jedi are all dead and the Jedi can not attack back. So Force users by themselves are a threat in one on one fights but on a large scale, armies are much more dangerous.

    Still shows that a strong Force user, a jedi master at that, can be killed with relative ease. So a turned Jedi can be shot or killed with not much problem.

    Really? So the Jedi take children from their parents when they are infants and so they have no say in the matter. If they flunk Jedi school they are packed away to be farmers and again they have no say in what happens to them. So they are little better than slaves. They can not choose what they want to do nor can they go back home or see the families again.
    And the Jedi are not that dominating?

    Regards
    Nordom
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's why it only covers a two thousand year period. According to official sources, the Jedi who became Darth Ruin was one the first to leave. The record starts with him and ends with Dooku.

    There were about nine thousand or so Jedi, all told. 212 of them were in the Temple at the time Obi-wan's message was played back for them. That's all that he could scrounge up in time. Once the war had begun, all Jedi were pulled from their current assignments and given new ones.

    Fortunately, Yoda went to go pick up the army since the Chancellor was given Emergency Powers which would authorize the use of the Clone Army. So Mace was at the moment going to rescue Obi-wan and then hold out until back-up arrived.


    I never said otherwise. The problem though is that in other options, there are those that lead to the darker path. The Jedi had tried to curbtail it to the best of their ability.

    The Jedi leave the children alone if the parents say no. They don't force them into that life. As long as they do not have any knowledge of what they are and how to utilize it, they are content to be left alone. The Jedi are aware of the Whills and other Force sensitive religions that exist. If they choose to do something, then so be it. Most of the time it has been depicted, the parents say yes and only a few that I have seen, have had objections afterwards. You must also remember that the Jedi know that they cannot cover every child that is born. They can only go where they are brought to. That's why Qui-gon said that if Anakin had been born within the boarders of the Republic, the odds of his being discovered would have been much higher.

  12. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    It does if you know the term, "power corrupts". The Force may be a powerful tool but it can also be a highly-addictive drug that will turn you into a tyrannical barbarian. The Jedi have to isolate themselves so that noone will influence or blackmail them into using their powers for destructive purposes. That's why we hear both Qui-Gon and Mace say that they won't fight a war for anyone because they're peacekeepers, not soldiers.

    First off, I would like to know what those books are so that it would help Bobbi Kristina Brown cope with her mother's death. Second, the only reason the Jedi policy didn't work for Anakin is because PalpSidious is undermining both Obi-wan and the Council's guidance and teachings. He's interfering too much in Anakin's life with all the ego boosting and false promises which is what's making Anakin an unstable time bomb. What would really help Anakin is for the Jedi to NOT let Palpatine gain so much access to their industry even if he is the supreme chancellor. They also shouldn't let him and Anakin be friends so that he won't have a chance of corrupting Anakin into opposing the Jedi and siding with him.

    They weren't rejecting the fact that Anakin missed his mom. It was his fear of losing her that they frowned upon since the great Yoda did say that "Fear is the path of the Dark Side. Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, and Hate leads to Suffering". We see Anakin go down this path when he failed to save his mother and again when he tried to prevent his vision of Padme's death from coming true. The Council knew that Anakin would be dangerous and they were right but even I have to admit that they made him that way by treating him like he's a threat and ignoring his problems. As for the Council not knowing that Anakin and Padme are married, I think Obi-wan and Yoda may have suspected that the couple are into each other but they have no idea how far the relationship has gotten until Obi-wan sensed that Padme is pregnant. What baffles me is why neither Obi-wan nor Yoda told the other council members about the Anakin/Padme relationship if they did sense that there's something between the couple?

    Even if that person spit at your face, got drunk, or crashed your car, you'd still trust them? Obi-wan tried to show his trust to Anakin but when he saw on the hologram footage of how far Anakin has fallen to the Dark Side, then all bets were off. Even Padme was horrified when she's seen what Anakin has become and wanted nothing to do with him.

    Well, telling Anakin to continue crying and freaking out isn't going to help. There is nothing he or anyone of us can do that can bring someone back from the dead but the problem with Anakin is that he thinks there is. He's been brain-teased from all that "most powerful Jedi eve
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So the solution to "power corrupts" is to isolate people?

    The disengagement here is that--correct me if I'm wrong--you seem to believe there is absolutely no chance that Jedi can be taught to use their power responsibly unless they are isolated from the rest of society.

    I happen to have more faith in the Jedi than that. I think the term for people who cannot live in normal society without flipping out is some medical term for "insanity."

    You are friends with Whitney Houston's daughter?

    At any rate, a search for "helping children deal with death" on Amazon brought about 98 results, and that is just in books. And looking through the list, it only includes nonfiction books, no novels or picture books. Among those, Nana Upstairs and Nana Downstairs is a favorite of mine, and for the death of pets, Dog Heaven and Cat Heaven. The novel Tiger Eyes by Judy Blume deals directly with the murder of a parent. This blog on teaching with picture books has some other resources, as does this link. There are also online articles like this one and this one.

    Do you seriously think that children are incapable of coping with death when it is, as you said, an inevitable part of life? And did you seriously think that there were no available resources to help children cope with death?

    If the answer to either of those is "yes," I really don't know what to tell you.

    On this we agree, but the Jedi had no idea what Palpatine was until the moment Anakin told them. A few of them were suspicious from around the beginning of ROTS, but it was too late by then, and they still didn't think that the Sith Lord was Palpatine himself, only someone on his staff. Keeping Anakin away from Palpatine would have been a fantastic idea if they could have done so beginning in TPM.

    Um, yeah, they were. And even if for argument's sake, they were only rejecting the fact that he was afraid to lose her, they weren't being realistic. As Nordom said, if they were really that concerned about Anakin being afraid to lose her, the solution would have been to free her themselves and allow Anakin regular contact, even bring her to Coruscant. Those actions would have done much more to assuage Anakin's fears than their preaching did.

    Because they aren't rats.

    And going by the EU, they both knew that the couple had feelings for each other; Yoda told Obi-Wan to tell them to break it off, and Obi-Wan did tell Padme while Anakin was getting his arm re-attached.

    OK, what? We were talking about the Council here, and they showed mistrust in Anakin waaaayyy before that incident. And Anakin knew it too; he wasn't just being paranoid when he said they didn't trust him. They treated him with mistrust from the time he came to Coruscant, because he was "too old" and missed his mother.

  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Other than that whole "becoming a Sith apprentice" thing.

    I think Nordom is right. An ex-Jedi still has the Force, and if the dogmatic and domineering rules of the old Order are so important, the Order should never allow any Jedi to leave.

    That desire was exasperated by the lack of contact with Shmi and her remaining in slavery, and further exasperated by being told that falling in love--something sentient beings do every day--was "wrong."

    That's called "adolescence." It's been awhile for me but I remember the feeling very well.

    Sadly we'll never know, since the Jedi were either unable or unwilling to help Anakin deal with his attachments.

    I did notice in the films, however, that at least until midway through ROTS, Anakin's desire for power and control was related directly to wanting to save and help the people he cared about--a desire that is perfectly normal.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "...as far as I know. Though, not being a darksider, I wouldn't really know either way."

    In the EU the ability does exist.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Which EU? I've read the Plagueis novel and it looks like Plagueis was working on it but never really got there. Which corroborates with what Palpatine told Anakin in ROTS.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It seemed that Plagueis was killed before perfecting the attempt to stop his own aging, but his repeated killing and resurrecting of Venamis showed that he did have the ability to save others from death. As you say, this agrees with what Palpatine said in ROTS, but not, I think, in the way you mean. Palpatine didn't tell a story about a Sith who "never really got there". He consistently said that Plagueis had achieved the ability.

    Even if the book had not shown Plagueis demonstrating the ability, but had instead shown him working on it but never really achieving it, that still would not be sufficient grounds for declaring the assertion of the power's existence to be a "lie".
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Oh, OK. Since Venamis' existence was an experiment in and of itself so I didn't take the death-and-resurrection of him as Plagueis' accomplishing stopping death. And Palpatine did say that Plagueis had achieved the ability but then later told Anakin that he (Sidious) didn't know how to do it, that the two of them would have to work together to figure it out.

    So maybe "lying" is the wrong word. Two things Yoda could have told Anakin: one, that no one alive at that time knows how to stop death (assuming Yoda knew anything about Plagueis' experiments at all, which he may not have) or two, that seeking a supernatural ability to stop death involves delving into acts of evil--acts that Padme would not want Anakin to commit on her behalf.

    Anakin very well could have taken such advice and said, "Hell with it, I'm going to try to stop death anyway," but even if he had done so, the advice was still far better regarding reaching Anakin where he was, than the advice Yoda gave in the film.
  19. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    I think the advice Yoda gave was actually very much in keeping with his character, which to me has always seemed highly dogmatic. So, in my view at least, it would be highly unlike Yoda if he were to give a more pragmatic-sounding advice, or whatever. But that's just me.

    And while I'm not really familiar with the stuff that's from EU sources, I do think it highly ironic if Plagueis indeed failed to find a way of "stopping people from dying" or what not, while at the same time, the events in the prequels apparently led Qui-Gon to learn how to sustain one's identity past the point of physical death. It seems to me Qui-Gon's way to be a more spiritual take (thematically speaking) on the inherent desire for some sort of immortality, and one that in some ways is reminiscent of the concept of immortality embraced by some of th ancient Greek philosophers (namely, that the soul is immortal even if the body cannot be).
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He didn't fail, at least not in EU, where "Palpatine was lying about everything" has been pretty much blown out of the water. The point about the ability is not that it's impossible or doesn't exist, but that it's against the Jedi way.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There have been quite a lot of stories in various religions and mythologies regarding evil stemming from attempts at immortality. In Christianity, Satan's fall was related to his trying to be immortal and trying to be God.

    That's one reason I think Yoda could have addressed the subject with Anakin regarding the consequences of trying to achieve immortality, no matter what he knew or didn't know about Plagueis. It is true that Yoda was more dogmatic than pragmatic, as were most of the Jedi Masters--which I see as the crux of the problem. Anakin was more pragmatic and needed someone to frame the problem and the solution for him in a pragmatic way. Someone other than Palpatine, that is. Yoda did not do that.

    I do think he was more pragmatic with Luke in the OT and that made a difference.
  22. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Well, if that's how it is then, I'd still see an interesting parallel (or contrast) between the Sith way and what Qui-Gon was able to discover and later on pass to Yoda and Obi-Wan.

    But seen in that light, doesn't it make even *more* sense that Yoda's shortcomings (no pun intended) in this regard were part of the things that helped propel Anakin towards the darkness? Had he been a little less dogmatic at that point in time, things could still have turned out very differently for the Republic and the Jedi Order.

    It also makes the events in ESB even more touching, because it suggests the possibility that Yoda has had time to contemplate on his own failures, on how he could have done a better job of helping Anakin see the light. From that point of view, the 20+ years in Dagobah helped Yoda become an even better teacher - more pragmatic, as you say - and even having the opportunity to teach Luke a lesson in the cave hinged greatly on bringing up the Jedi Order's greatest failure ever, and making Luke confront the reality that he could become another Darth Vader.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi can teach it, they just took extra steps to ensure that it wouldn't happen if that Jedi chooses to ignore his training. Dooku and Anakin are examples of this.

    They can cope, but then it's a crap shoot. Those who can cope go on to live normal lives. Others, though, cannot cope and thus turn to drugs and alcohol in order to cope. Whitney Houston's daughter cannot cope and I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't using prior to her mom's death. That's something that doesn't just manifest overnight. Anger issues over death and something like depression are one thing. They can come and go. Using something to not feel those emotions, not so much.

    Right, the Jedi encourage friendships. Obi-wan was friends with Dex and had known him for years.

    That seems like a good idea...in theory. But what if something happened to her while she was free? After all, it wasn't that she was a slave that got her killed. It was that she was free and living with the Lars, then one day going out to pick mushrooms that got her into trouble. Or like with Padme, Anakin sees her dying in his dreams which are visions of the future. See, that in itself becomes the problem. Anakin, even if he had known she was free, would still have problems when something eventually happened. There comes a point where you have to make that detachment. Anakin's fears began when the visions started, not before then. He did have some fear for Shmi, but it didn't grow out of control until the Tuskens grabbed her.

    Not quite. They did mistrust him when he was nine. They did trust him ten years later to go off on his own, while Obi-wan was expressing doubt. They trusted him during the Clone Wars by promoting him and giving him his Padawan. They began to mistrust him because of his outburst over not being promoted to the rank of Master. That's what got under Mace's skin and lead to that discussion aboard the LAAT. Then, that's when he ex
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I believe they can teach it too, but I also believe they chose those "extra steps" to avoid having to teach it to those who might have a more difficult time learning it. The equivalent would be a high school English teacher refusing to teach students who had not been read to as children or could not already read on at least an eighth grade level.

    And as I see it, it backfired, because they had isolated themselves for so long that when Anakin came along, they had no idea how to teach him to handle his issues.

    Sure, but that's no different from real life. And I would say that the majority of people do cope and move on, as painful as it is to lose a loved one. Avoiding familial attachments altogether protects a person from the pain of loss, but it also "protects" the person from the joy and companionship that comes with such a relationship. I don't believe for a second that the Jedi cannot afford that joy and companionship.

    The argument could be made, based on the Jedi philosophy, that we should all be separated from our parents at birth because Whitney Houston's daughter couldn't cope with her mother's drug use and death. After all, if she had never known her mother, she wouldn't have this problem.

    Sure, but my point is that if Anakin had not been discouraged from being concerned for her at all, he would not have had to keep his fears bottled inside him, where they manifested.

    What if, in the conversation in AOTC, Obi-Wan had been allowed to say, "I see that you are so worried that you are losing sleep. Why don't we call and check on her?" I think that Obi-Wan did the best he could under the circumstances--he did try to empathize with Anakin--but he was required as a Jedi Master to try to divert Anakin's attention from his mother.

    The novelization indicates that Yoda always treated Anakin as if his very existence were an annoyance, and Mace didn't do much better, but even that aside--PMT99 indicates in his post that the Council trusted Anakin completely until the moment Obi-Wan saw the hologram. Not so, not even close.

    Sure, but again, PMT99 said that "getting drunk" is a cause for mistrust. Not "constantly breaking promises due to an untreated alcohol problem"--"getting drunk." If "getting drunk" is a cause for mistrust, I can't trust 98 percent of the adults in my life, including myself, as I've overly imbibed plenty of times.

    Even if he thought Anakin was talking about Obi-Wan, his response was inappropriate. He wasn't teaching, because he refused to try to meet Anakin where Anakin was.

    A response from someone who thinks the vision is about Obi-Wan and knows nothing about Plagueis could be, "I know you have watched Count Dooku injure your Master several times, but he has survived worse. As his Jedi family we will do everything to protect him, and help him protect himself. And realistically that is all we really can do."

    Yoda seemed to be scolding Anakin for being afraid to lose Padm
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    They did know how to teach him, it didn't help that they were being undermined the whole time.

    They did find companionship and the positive aspects therein. They just taught the new generations to avoid developing a strong attachment to someone, that they put their own needs ahead of the galaxy as a whole.

    No, the philosophy is that people die all the time. Accept that as part of your life and do not dwell on the negative, but look at the positive. With the Jedi they have to go further based on how the dark side turns them into tyrants.

    Obi-wan didn't see it as visions, but as dreams. Had he knew what they would entail, he would've tried something different. They also had a more important matter to attend to right then.

    I didn't get that in the book, that may have been Anakin's point of view, but Yoda did care for the boy. That much is clear.

    There is also that since any time you become inebriated, any decision you make is critical and can be fatal.

    He didn't refuse to teach and self-discipline cannot be taught. It has to be self-taught. What Yoda said to him is the same thing he says to Luke.

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