PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But of course the real reason they didn't tell him is because they simply didn't know about it.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Did they know how to teach the philosophy, in general, to a group of younglings who had been raised in the Temple? Or did they know how to teach someone who came from the type of background that Anakin came from (which, due to his past as a slave, was even more dysfunctional than that of a "normal" person in the galaxy)?

    I agree that Palpatine undermined everything they did, and that didn't help.

    My argument is that it is possible to teach the important Jedi philosophy of putting the galaxy as a whole above individuals to whom one is attached, without banning all close attachments to individuals. (And the word "important" wasn't me being sarcastic, I believe that philosophy is important.)

    Where I disagree is that they "have to" go further.

    I think that's true, I think Obi-Wan would have tried something different if he had known exactly what Anakin was seeing, and that they were more than dreams. But that's Obi-Wan; he was far more empathetic with Anakin than the other Jedi Masters.

    The part in the book that mentions it is right after Anakin goes to Yoda for help; the paragraph goes on to say that Yoda had always treated Anakin as if his very existence were an annoyance, but this time he simply invited Anakin in, offered him a pod, and suggested that they meditate. Anakin was so grateful at that point--and hopeful that he would actually get help--that he had tears in his eyes.

    I think Yoda cared about Anakin too, at least as much as he cared about anyone else, but I do wonder why Anakin got the impression that Yoda thought his very existence was an annoyance

    But Anakin isn't Luke. Yoda didn't differentiate his instruction to accommodate the needs of his individual students.

    Honestly, the idea of telling someone like Anakin Skywalker to teach himself self-discipline regarding his emotions or attachments, makes me want to laugh. And I haven't lived in the same building with the guy for 13 years. Yoda should know better.

    I'm sure Anakin was plenty self-disciplined at katas and the like, but as far as emotions--he's a firecracker, and that's simply how he's wired. Telling a high-strung emotional person to "calm down" doesn't make it happen. Anakin needed to be taught how to calm down, and such coping methods can be taught, it's done all the time in the real world. And simply telling someone to "let go" of another person to whom one is attached--as I mentioned earlier, Anakin didn't have a switch that either he or Yoda could just flip and make that happen.

  3. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    How elitest of them to keep information from Anakin that they didn't know to begin with. Simply inexcusable.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Keeping information from Anakin obviously did not serve them well, particularly as Anakin got the information from Palpatine, along with a bit more evidence that the Jedi did not trust him.

    And if the Jedi were really completely unaware of the nature of the Dark Side, they'd have no reason to argue that any emotion led directly to it. If their philosophies came about as a result of the Sith Wars, seems they are plenty aware of how the Dark Side operates and what Sith Lords are like. The only part they didn't understand was their delving into politics, which had not been done before.

    A comparison might be US defense policy adapting to prepare for an enemy that operates via secret cells (Al Qaida) as opposed to an enemy that operates openly via a government (the Communists).

  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    While Anakin was a rare exception, Obi-wan was still going by what he was taught by both Qui-gon and Yoda and then was making it up as he went along.

    That is the big difference, otherwise Luke would've fell. Note how his family helps to influence him for twenty years.

    One can teach only so much, it falls to the individual to apply those lessons to their life. For instance, at a young age, we are taught that drugs and alcohol are bad. But as soon as we're old enough, we start following into that trap. Unless you happen to continue to agree with that philosophy and become straight edge. Or close to it. Case in point, I've believed since I was five that drinking was not a fun activity without having done so. I'll turn thirty four at the end of June and still have not taken a drink. My best friend growing up had no interest in drinking, based on how he saw his father and brother when they drank. But then during our senior year, he had gotten a bottle of Schnapps and drank it at home. After graduation, he became like many others who enjoy alcohol as a means of relaxing and having fun. Everyone responds differently. The Jedi who were allowed to have attachments and fell, they all varied. Those who didn't have attachments, were fewer and farther in between when it came to falling. But they still fell regardless.

    Attachment as the problem is that it arises from relationships that become too personal.

    Consider that two Jedi fell during an era where attachments were forbidden, versus the eras where they were allowed. The numbers speak for themselves.

    That's why Obi-wan let Anakin get away with his relationship to Padme, despite knowing the danger in it. I don't think the Council wasn't empathetic to his plight, but rather that it was never brought up to them.

    Because it goes back to his age and how he first came into the Jedi Order. I do not know if he knew that Yoda was the lone holdout on his being admitted into the Jedi Order. But I think that's just what Anakin interpreted as the situation was and was fueled by Palpatine's lies and ego stoking. That and the fact is that I think that Anakin didn't spend nearly the amount of time with Yoda that the other Jedi had.

  6. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Both Anakin and Dooku are primary examples of what happens to a Jedi who let the outside society corrupt them. They become warmongering psychos who thrive on their own personal conquest and will not care how their actions affect other people. The Jedi have to work extra hard to keep their emotions in check, especially dark emotions for they can cause people to do terrible things. In the Jedi's case, having them go nuts will be like dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima.

    I've seen young teens join gangs, robbing stores, and shooting people all because either someone close to them has died or they've been threatened of being killed. It is not that simple to cope with death like you claim it is because if it were, those kids would not be doing the horrible things that they're doing now.

    What good would it do even if the Jedi did free her? Anakin would still be worried about her because anything could happen to her. In fact, Shmi wasn't in any danger until she married and lived with Cliegg Lars in a homestead that's in the middle of nowhere. It is at that point that Anakin started having visions of her dying but even he didn't know if the dreams were actually happening. The point is that the Jedi can't be everywhere and save everyone all the time because they don't always succeed in doing so but they shouldn't let that concept upset them. That's what they're trying to teach Anakin but he just wasn't having it.

    Well, that couldn't have NOT worked any better.

  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    PMT99: We're very obviously at an impasse, since--correct me if I'm wrong--you're going to believe that "the Jedi were perfect and Anakin should have simply played along" no matter what I say, and there's no way in hell I'll ever believe that no matter what you say. And that is not to say that Anakin did not make some very bad choices, but I am in no way willing to sum up the issue in such black-and-white terms as "the Jedi were perfect, Anakin was bad, end of story." If I were willing to believe for half a second that the characters could be summed up by such labels, I would be way too bored to be a Star Wars fan, and would move on to a more interesting and complex saga.

    Thankfully I believe that Star Wars is interesting and complex and its characters are not nearly as one-dimensional as you are painting them to be.

    And once name-calling gets started, even name-calling directed at fictional characters ("warmongering psycho" and "spoiled brat"), that seems to be a pretty good indication that all hope for real discussion is over. I outgrew schoolyard back-and-forth "Yes he is!" "No he isn't!" ping-pong matches years ago.

    You also seem to see the issues we're debating in extremes--people must be isolated, normal familial relationships always make people behave badly and therefore must be avoided at all costs. With your examples of Whitney Houston's daughter and "teenagers joining gangs", you seem to believe such a philosophy would work well even in our world. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the statements you are making indicate.

    If those are the statements you are making, again we should just agree to disagree and move along.

    But on your last statement, I certainly hope you weren't calling me a "kid" for recognizing normal adolescent behavior for what it is. I expect a 19-20 year old to behave like an adolescent. I certainly did at that age.

    darth-sinister: We seem to agree that the Jedi were doing the best job they knew how to do, and that even with their doing their best, Palpatine undermined their authority. I'll check out the Old Republic EU material you mentioned in order to get more insight on the beginnings of the PT Jedi philosophy itself.

    Where we may not agree is on this: as I see it, the Jedi did not "get" Anakin at all. They either did not understand, did not take seriously, or both, how his background would affect him. And the one moment that I felt they did take it seriously, it was used as an excuse to reject him for training.

    What Anakin wanted most was to be understood and heard. He got that from Palpatine. If he had been able to get that from someone else--from his mother by virtue of their continuing to allow him contact, from Qui-Gon if he had lived--he might not have been so easily ensnared into Palpatine's web.

    This is where I go back to their policy of isolation--whatever good intentions they may have had when it started, I blame it for the fact that they had no idea how to help Anakin with his issues.

    And yes, I think they really did want to help, especially Obi-Wan; his training, however, made him defer to the Council whenever there was a disagreement. On the mission to spy on Palpatine, for example, Obi-Wan was adamantly opposed, said as much (both in Anakin's presence and outside of it) and was overridden.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I don't think PMT was saying that the Jedi were perfect. I think he was saying that based on how the Jedi had come to understand the Force, dating back to the first individual who discovered the connection to the Force to the present day of TPM, they had known what it is that turns Jedi and how to curbtail it. It just took a while to reach the point where the Jedi evolved from what they were under Vodo Siosk-Baas, into what they are under Yoda. He's not saying that Anakin was bad, but that he was too unwilling to accept the galaxy as it is due to his attachments. The best thing for him was to grow up and away from Shmi, so that his mother could teach him to let go.

    "Tales Of The Jedi" is the earliest example of the Jedi point of view, especially with the Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider stories. That's not to say that KOTOR isn't a good read, but TOTJ lays out the dangers of the dark side in a concise manner that reflects upon the PT. I recall re-reading the early 90's series and seeing many similarities to TPM and the early spoilers for AOTC, back in 02, I think it was. Maybe in 01. And then thumbing through it again after ROTS and seeing a strong connection between Ulic and Exar Kun and Anakin.

    Obi-wan was against it because he knew that the friendship with Palpatine was close to being on the level of attachment, especially given how strongly he has defended him during their countless political discussions prior to the Clone Wars. But he deferred to the Council not so much because of his training, but because as he often said in his discussions with Anakin, politicians shouldn't be fully trusted.

    OBI-WAN: "Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin, th
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't know--with all the discussions about Whitney Houston's daughter and "teenagers in gangs", none of whom are Jedi, it seems that he was speaking in generalities, not about the Jedi or the Force specifically. And regardless, aside from his affinity to the Force, I see Anakin as very normal in his makeup. Looking at TPM, we see a normal well-adjusted kid, in spite of the fact that he was a slave. One wonders what happened between TPM and AOTC to make him so abnormally nervous about losing the people he loves. I do think we are given clues in TPM, starting with the scene in the Council chambers.

    "Your thoughts dwell on your mother."
    "Well, gee, Sherlock, ya think?"

    An interesting AU line of thought might be, What would have happened if Anakin had stayed with Shmi, if Cliegg and Owen had been able to free him as well, and he had moved to the Lars farm? IOW, what if Qui-Gon had not taken Anakin with him? What would have happened? (I do think he might have still gone bats on the Tuskens, but he would have done so in time to save Shmi's life and the ensuing slaughter probably would not have included the entire tribe.)

    I do think that Shmi could have done a better job teaching Anakin the letting go that is a normal part of growing up, but she would not have given him platitudes either. (I personally don't consider platitudes to be a form of empathy, but I'm like Anakin in that I prefer practicalities and action. If I went to someone to vent or seek help and he or she offered me platitudes and philosophy, it would piss me off.)

    Additionally we have the statements that "these rules are right for Jedi because Yoda said so". There seems to be a lot of argument that the Jedi rules and the PT Jedi interpretation of the Force, and how to keep Jedi on the Light Side, are not to be questioned. I disagree with that, which is why I have spent the past several pages questioning them.

    I'll check out Tales of the Jedi. So far the best EU source I have seen for explaining the no-attachment rule was Shatterpoint, in which Mace Windu explains it. I still didn't agree but Stover as Mace put it in terms that I could at least understand where it came from.

    On Obi-Wan and the assignment, I agree, he opposed it because he knew Anakin was too close to Palpatine and would take the assignment as a mandate to betray him. I also think that he knew the spying needed to be done, and maybe in the end he didn't see anyone but Anakin who would be able to do it undetected. Of course it still ended up being a monumentally bad idea.

    I like the way Obi-Wan explained it in the novelization, that the assignment was to protect Palpatine, just in case someone among his circle of advisors was a Sith. It still didn't fly very well with Anakin but the explanation was better.

    And although I somewhat share Obi-Wan's cynicism towards politicians, I can see how Anakin might not like his lumping all people of one profession into the "not trustworthy" category.
  10. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    No, I'm trying to distinquish the line between Jedi behavior and normal person behavior. You are correct about it being natural for a normal person to experience fear of loss and that we have every right to react to that fear. The Jedi, however, cannot react to such emotion because their powers are tied to their emotions. If they so much as get upset over a minor incident like being teased or being slapped in the face, they will cause an entire room to collapse like Anakin did when PalpSidious told him that Padme is dead. Emotions are the key factor in how the Force is being used and if you want to be a Jedi, then you have to remain calm and at peace or else, your mental instability and powers combined will lead to the destruction of countless worlds. Anakin refuses to control his emotions and therefore, his breakdown caused him to tear the entire galaxy apart.

    The second Anakin signed on to become a Jedi, he ceased to be normal and became a demigod. As for how he became abnormally nervous in AOTC, I believed that Anakin himself answered that question. It was Palpatine's "guidance" that made him both power-hungry and mentally unstable but before that, Anakin had Qui-Gon to keep him grounded. Qui-Gon's death enabled PalpSidious to take over as the father figure so Anakin was screwed regardless if the Jedi knew the proper way to help him.

    Anakin would have died fighting the Tuskens without his Jedi powers and the prophecy would be lost. With him gone, nothing will stop PalpSidious from being master of the universe and annihilating the Jedi Order.

    And that will put you in danger of being corrupted by the Dark Side just like Anakin.

    Well, I disagree with the whole "Jedi needing to change the
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So you are saying that the Jedi were--and should have been--an "only one personality need apply" type order. Got it.

    Even the police, the military, and those of us who work with children every day are not subjected to such draconian policies as a Myers-Brigg score of "T" (as opposed to "F") being required.

    Impasse it is.

    Um, no, he didn't. His affinity to the Force was present prior to his meeting Qui-Gon, which is how he was able to pod race. His psychological make-up and personality did not magically change when he got accepted for training. He was still the same Anakin that he was five minutes prior to being accepted for training.

    Anakin said "Your guidance has made me power-hungry?" I missed that scene.

    I agree. But I would ask why this was the case. Out of all the Jedi Masters in the Temple, Qui-Gon was the only one who was willing to give Anakin fatherly attention? (I'm not blaming Obi-Wan, who was a Knight and only 15 years older than Anakin, but for the others there is no excuse other than unwillingness or inability due to their policy inhibiting their knowledge of normal familial relationships.)

    Anakin had Jedi powers prior to being discovered. There was never a question of his being without them. He could have saved the lives of the 26 farmers who went after Shmi, along with Shmi herself, and Cliegg's leg if he could have gotten there sooner though.

    LOL, so being a practical person who is annoyed by dogmatic preaching is a Sith trait now?

    Care to dig up my post in which I said, "The Jedi needed to change their rules to satisfy Anakin"?

    What I said repeatedly was that the anti-family rules should have never existed in the first place, and then there would be no need to consider exceptions, or worry about whether Anakin missed his mother or was in love with Padme. These situations would be handled exactly as they are handled every single day in the real world
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Except you miss the point of that in the Council scene, the Jedi are testing him. They are trying to gain an understanding of who and what this boy is and whether they will bend their rules for him. Ki-Adi-Mundi speaks up because he wants the boy to be honest and not try to hide his feelings from them. This is an important thing to understand for him, because Yoda says that his feelings will have an impact on his life. That is why in the end, they rejected him before the Battle of Naboo.

    Shmi left Watto because he could no longer afford to keep her and because he felt sorry for her and felt that the Lars would be a better life for her. Odds are if the Jedi didn't need to go to Tatooine to obtain replacement parts, Anakin would either spend the rest of his life as a slave to Watto or be sold off at a future date. But in the end, the point is that Anakin needs the stability that his mother can provide and the continued efforts to make him an emotionally mature person.

    That's because he would not have an outside influence like Palpatine undermining her efforts. Like with the Lars, where Luke could leave his aunt and uncle if not for his feelings of obligation and not have to worry that they will not be fine without him. This is why their deaths did not send Luke over the edge as he accepted that they are gone and he can now help Obi-wan with a clear conscience.

    Except that they are right, because when it is all boiled down to the core basics, it is attachments and the need to let go of them, that results in fallen Jedi.

    Of course it was a bad idea, but in the wrong ways.

    That was only because Stover was working in conjunction with Luceno regarding all previous EU plots.
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Well, none of you have superpowers so it's easy for you to not have those policies. You keep assuming that the Jedi are normal people but they're not because they are as close to being like gods. They can never lead normal lives due to what they are and what they can do like the X-men since they couldn't do the same either. The outside world hated and feared the X-men just for being born a mutant with superpowers and like them, there are some in the galaxy that feel the Jedi are a threat and we see how happy they are in the Senate when PalpSidious announces that he's killing off the Jedi. Anakin should've realized that he can never have a normal life now that he's a Jedi and that it is selfish of him to want a family at the expense of the galaxy's safety.

    Once Anakin learned how to use his powers, he becomes a different person. Even Padme says that he's changed a lot and that's because he's learning how to be a Jedi (and his psychological make-up and personality is being mutilated by PalpSidious).

    Let's view what happens next, shall we? Palpatine says that he forsees Anakin becoming more powerful than Master Yoda and fast forward to the scene where Anakin tells Padme that he'll be the most powerful Jedi ever. PalpSidious has been planting false ideas in Anakin's head that the poor boy has become power-mad.


    Qui-Gon was able to bond with Anakin before they left Tatooine but neither Obi-wan nor the others had a chance to do the same. Anakin was forced onto their laps, it was like having a skunk for a pet but it took a long time for them to accept Anakin. The Clone Wars helped Obi-wan grow closer to Anakin, Yoda offered to help Anakin with his vision problems, and Mace was on the verge of trusting Anakin once he ratted out Palpatine as Darth Sidious. Even those younglings looked to Anakin for help when the Jedi temple was under attack but he disappointed all of them by being a traitor.

    But Anakin would not know how to use his Jedi powers if noone teaches him how to do so. He wouldn't have survived against the Tuskens if he wasn't trained as a Jedi.

    No, being a superpowered being with no self-control is a Sith trait.

  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    They may have a different affinity to the Force, but in their psychological makeup, they are absolutely like normal people.

    If the Jedi had lived among normal people, I don't know that that they would have been mistrusted so badly.

    X-Men analogies are lost on me, I've never read the comics or seen the movies.

    Seriously? He was a 10-year-old kid. I work with 10-year-old kids every day, and if I ever met one who thought that wanting a family was "selfish," I'd think he had a psychological problem.

    A 10-year-old kid who was raised by his mother, is going to want his mother. That's not "selfish," it's normal. And as I explained earlier, Anakin's personality and psychological makeup did not magically change when he got to Coruscant.

    No, he didn't, and that's not at all what Padme said. She said he had changed a lot, and she was referring partially to the Jedi philosophy that he picked up (which, based on your posts, was the philosophy that you wanted him to pick up), and partially to the fact that he was twice as old as he was last time she saw him.

    Palpatine had nothing to do with that conversation at all.

    You fast-forwarded through quite a few scenes and at least one major event in Anakin's life to make that particular leap.

    You're making my point for me. If they had not treated Anakin like an unwanted pet that had been dumped on them, then maybe he would not have been so drawn to Palpatine. And Palpatine, BTW, did not bond with Anakin before he left Tatooine either.

    He did pretty well in that pod race.

    That's not what you said. You said that anyone who refuses to accept platitudes as "advice" would be in danger of falling to the Dark Side.

    Not at all. Your timeline is messed up--I said that the rules should have never been put in place a thousand years before Anakin came into their lives.

    Don't put words in my mouth.

  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's your opinion. I don't share it. Especially given the fact that nobody in the Order even tried the methods used every day in the real world to teach emotional control--or at best, had not tried them in a thousand years.

    I agree to a point; from EU sources, the idea is that Palpatine would have studied Sith philosophy due to the fact that it was known that the Sith were behind the Separatists. I personally might have raised an eyebrow as well, but I haven't spent the past 10 years with Palpatine as my only father figure either.

    Your gross oversimplification of those events isn't even worth dignifying with an explanation.

    Yoda's "how feel you?" was actually along the lines of how I would expect a room full of adults to treat a lonely, scared 10-year-old kid. And Ki-Adi-Mundi's question would not be so bad, but their response after Anakin admitted that he missed Shmi was at best, way off base. That's what looked to me like a scolding.

    Agreed 100 percent.

    True, but how exactly was Palpatine able to undermine the Jedi? How was he able to gain Anakin's trust so much more easily? To me it will never be as simple as "He told him what he wanted to hear."

    The need to put the galaxy as a whole above individual people, and teach their younglings to do the same, I don't question. But their blanket bubble-wrapping "only one personality and background will work" policy, however well intentioned it might have been when it began, is what I find blatantly wrong--and as Anakin's situation proved, unrealistic when it is not elastic enough to accommodate any exceptions.

    Labyrinth of Evil? Either way the explanation was good.
  16. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I have one. After Yoda senses Anakin's pain as he kills the Tuskens, why don't they follow it up? They never question Anakin about it as far as we are shown. Perhaps this is why he goes to Palpatine, as referenced in Revenge of the Sith.
  17. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Most likely, they became too caught up in the first galaxy-wide war since the formation of the republic to investigate what Anakin was doing on a remote planet that wasn't even part of the Republic.

    Would be nice if Yoda at least question Anakin directly or maybe asked Obi-Wan to find out more. OTOH if something was off they'd lose one of the most powerful Jedi in time of need. Also, both Yoda and Obi-Wan knew (or suspected) about Anakin and Padem's relationship and yet they kept quiet about it. It seems that when it comes to Anakin their preferred course of action was inaction until it was too late. So when Obi-Wan's telling Anakin he's failed him he's not entirely wrong.
  18. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    True, but it still feels like an oversight. Although this kind of backs up that things generally go way too fast for Anakin to have time to meditate on his actions.

    I get the impression that they didn't tend to tell Anakin what they really thought. That's an interesting point about not wanting Anakin to be out of action. Quite possible they ignored things that they wouldn't have otherwise ignored.

    Obi-Wan indeed fails Anakin IMO, but there was little he could have done with fate setting up the events that occur. Qui-Gon's training would have been more suited for Anakin, of course. I don't know how he would deal with Anakin and Padme's relationship, but you get the idea he would have had more wisdom on the subject than Obi-Wan.

    I didn't realise Yoda knew about Padme, is that from the novel? I didn't get this impression from the 'Counsel with Yoda scene', it seemed fairly ambigous.
  19. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Indeed! He was probably more excited about losing his virginity with the woman he'd loved since he was 9 and then proving himself as a hero of the Republic. ;) Concentrate on the good stuff, forget the bad.

    For once, he would have paid more attention when Anakin was telling him about dreams instead of dismissing them without further thought. After all, if the boy is the Chosen One, maybe the dreams are not just dreams?

    He did direct Obi-Wan to Padme's apartment to find Anakin. Even if Yoda knew only after Anakin asked for his help (and received none, I might add), he still didn't do anything about it.

    Of course, if we believe Lucas that the Jedi weren't celibate then it's possible Obi-Wan and Yoda thought Padme and Anakin were just "friends with benefits" and didn't form the dangerous attachment? I know it's not fair, but I sometimes wish Star Wars were not the kids movies so that these themes were more explored.
  20. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    True, although Obi-Wan's advice "Dreams pass in time" was well intentioned. I think Obi-Wan and Yoda possibly learn from their mistake and adapt towards what we see in the OT. Although while Yoda gives Luke slightly better advice than Anakin receieved, he still seems to hold onto the ideal that sacrificing Luke's friends is unavoidable circumstance if Luke is to succeed as a Jedi.

    Could be the case. I wonder what it would have been like if Lucas had left more of the jealousy issue in ROTS. I'm sure you're aware Obi-Wan and Padme's friendship is explored more in the script, and Obi-Wan playing dumb about the nature of Anakin and Padme's relationship is more relevant.

    Yeah. At least they leave stuff ambiguous enough that it isn't ruled out for discussion.
  21. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Obi-Wan no more failed Anakin than Anakin failed Obi-Wan, or to reverse it, he failed Anakin just as much as Anakin failed Obi-Wan.

    This really isn't a black or white, one character's entire fault situation. It's contributory with many factors playing a part. In short, like real life, no one acts ideally and everyone does make mistakes and the cumulative effect in this case is Anakin choosing to go Sith to save Padme and screw everyone else.

    Sure, he had his reasons to make his choice, but they weren't all based on everyone else's actions - it also had a lot to do with his pereceptions of their actions. Not the same thing.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    But appropriate in determining if he is to be trained or not. If they vote to let him in, he needs to know right away that his feelings can be an issue.

    It was also that he served as a sounding board, for whenever he felt frustrated with Obi-wan and the Council. He treated Anakin as a friend and someone who needed additional mentoring. He's like the cool uncle who lets you do the stuff that your parents won't let you do.

    He was fine up until his visions began. That was his undoing. There was no other way to proceed other than what Yoda told him.

    Anakin did tell the Council and Obi-wan that he went to Tatooine to check on his mother and found out that she had died. But he didn't tell them the rest of what happened. Aside from Palpatine, the only other Jedi to know was A'Sharred Hett and he told Anakin to tell the Council. He just never checked to see if he had.
  23. celera Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 2
    Yoda: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is.
    Anakin Skywalker: What must I do, Master Yoda?
    Yoda: Train yourself to let go... of everything you fear to lose.

    Missing and mourning loved ones who die are normal reactions. I'm not denying that Anakin had to let go but I don't understand how anyone expects him to listen this piece of advice after being told not to feel normal emotions.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    YES. Thank. You.

    "You need to let go" would be appropriate advice for someone who, several months to a year later, is still incapacitated by a loved one's death. In Anakin's case, Padme was still alive; Anakin was having scary visions about what might happen.

    I think he might have needed to know that they will train him to put the good of the galaxy before the good of any individual that he might care about. I don't know that the Council chamber was the appropriate place to make that point, however. I felt intimidated just watching Anakin standing in the middle of a circle of Jedi-Master scrutinizing eyes. And I'm an adult; he was a kid who had just left his mother.

    True. But why were none of the Jedi able to serve as a "sounding board" for Anakin?

    The reason the visions of Padme affected him so badly was that similar visions of his mother had come to pass. I don't know that he was "fine" before the visions happened, but he was certainly doing much better. Particularly when one takes the novelization into account, the visions of Padme dying were the prime factor in Anakin's slide towards insanity in ROTS, with Palpatine pushing him down that slide. According to the novelization, Anakin stopped sleeping because he was afraid of the visions returning.

    I just wonder if Yoda recognized that Anakin really was on the brink.

    I agree, and his perceptions of others' actions were driven by the insanity-induced paranoia towards the end of the movie.

    My answer to this is along the lines of what everyone else said: the war started within days afterwards, and the Jedi were distracted. I think if Geonosis had not happened, Yoda's visions of what happened on Tatooine might have been pursued.

    As far as who knew about Anakin and Padme, according to Karen Miller's novels, both Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that they had feelings for each other, and Yoda told Obi-Wan to order a cease and desist. Which Obi-Wan did, going to Padme about it, and she played along while mentally telling him to shove it where the sun didn't shine.

    According to the ROTS novelization, Obi-Wan still knew that they had feelings for each other but did n
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The EU authors have really overdone this whole "not sleeping" thing. Anakin, Palpatine, now Plagueis. It's like SW is a video game. I find it notable that Lucas didn't go there.
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