PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

I agree that Yoda's advice was intended for a Jedi ... and he's really trying to force the square peg into the round hole here with Anakin. He's reminding Anakin how he should be acting. He's also trying to avert the potential for disaster that he saw in TPM by trying to get Anakin to move beyond his emotional attachments. I don't know that Yoda is equipped to approach Anakin as anything other than a Jedi.

Mace's actions don't become ludicrous beyond belief. What else is he going to do? Even if you are right about Mace not knowing about Anakin and Padme, he is still painfully aware that Anakin is conflicted when it comes to Palpatine. It doesn't matter at that point. Mace has to make that final plunge and try to end the threat that Palpatine represents.He's out of options.

But I still maintain that the jedi have figured it out.

I maintain that the line "then our worst fears have been confirmed" refers back to the distasteful option of not only removing the chancellor, but also taking control of the Senate. That was a worst case scenario and Mace sees it as being necessary.

His vision of his mother didn't necessarily have him there either. It's the foreknowledge of her peril that makes it possible for him to act. The same would be true in Padme's case.

In both cases, the cause is his premonition. The effect is his acting on it. Same thing in both cases. He learned a lesson from the first one. I don't follow the distinction you are trying to make between the two.

I don't follow. His distance from Padme might be dangerous to her? It's the lack of action that allows it to happen in his mind. The only way for her to be saved is for him to act. Distance may or may not be a factor, but it's kind of a red herring. He could have been standing right next to his mother when the Tuskens took her. If he didn't act, the result would be the same. Inaction is the key.

He knows that Palpatine has not been forthcoming ... until he actually is forthcoming. Anakin didn't stumble on the information. Palpatine volunteered it. So he wasn't particularly deceitful, he was honest ... when the time was appropriate ... which was deceitful to an extent. But not enough to make him a fraud about it.

Palpatine doesn't feign weakness. He legitimately cannot overcome Mace without help. Once Mace's defenses are torn down, he *is* able to overcome them.

If he doesn't know how to use the power, but he has clues that they can pursue to discover the power, then it is certainly reasonable that Anakin can discover the secret with Palpatine's help. Again, Palpatine admitted that he didn't know how to do it. That's not deceitful, it's a measure of honesty.

Without Palpatine, Anakin has nothing. No chance. The knowledge doesn't exist in the Jedi circles ... or if it does, they've made it clear they won't help him.

With Palpatine, Anakin has a chance. That's better than nothing.

The nature that links both events is that Anakin knows they are in peril. He can't save Padme if he just ignores the peril. Yoda wants him to ignore the problem. The last time Anakin listened to that advice, his mother died.

Saying that one should rejoice the death of loved ones and that being attached to others is a path to wickedness is incontrovertibly dogmatic in nature. You're trying to dodge around it.

A reasoned argument is to look at all the variables and all the possibilities and make a determination from there.That's the option that Palpatine offers, not the Jedi.

You're way off on this one.

But the force is neither unevidenced nor fantastical. It is real and demonstrable.

Yoda's training of Luke on Dagobah makes it really clear what the limits of the force are: they are the limits the user puts on him- or herself.

LUKE: I don't...I don't believe it.

YODA: That is why you fail.

He's not supposed to be a good man. Have I claimed he was? He's a flawed man.

I don't excuse or justify Anakin's choices one bit. I see the films as an exploration of what situations and choices led him down the path to destruction. In any number of places he could have made different choices. But in none of those situations are his choices inexplicable. His character and personality are fairly consistent throughout the narrative. Acknowledging that doesn't make an excuse or justification for his choices.

A betrayal scene would have been exciting as well. I can't argue that it wouldn't have worked.

The rushed Faustian bargain was just fine though. I can understand your being underwhelmed by it, but it does work.

I don't defend his choices. I do explain them. I understand the character flaws from which they come. The explanation does not excuse them. Understanding does not equate to acceptance.

Do I pretend that Anakin was a good man? Do I refer to him that way? I don't recall. I don't think I did.

He wasn't tricked. He went down a dark path. You're trying to make the case that he was tricked, but I don't really think he was. George Lucas tells you in Episode I that Anakin's attachments will be his downfall. Sure enough, they are. I've adamantly stuck to that throughout this discussion.

I appreciate the thought and effort you're putting in. A delay is to be expected, given how far the discussion has come.

 

I haven't seen Valkyrie, but my gut tells me that Star Wars and Valkyrie were made for two completely different audiences with different experiences and ages. It's like saying that Harry Potter only has 10% of the intrigue of Saving Private Ryan. It's a meaningless and unfair comparison.

 

I think that his point was that the rule of two was invented to stop the infighting among the Sith. That long ago there were many Sith but they fought among themselves and nearly wiped themselves out.
That just two Sith can work together longer without stabbing each other in the back all the time.

Dooku turned and left the order in short order, so none of the other jedi has had any contact with him after that. For your scenario to be true he would have turned long before that and remained an active Jedi for many years and none of the other Jedi sensed anything.

Your scenario means this happened. Dooku was a Jedi, trained by Yoda no less. Then he meets a sith lord and is turned to the dark side. He remains a Jedi and trains to use the dark side and none of the other jedi sense anything. The he kills his sith master, has time to look around and finds Maul, trains him to use the dark side. And all this while he lives a life of being an active jedi and meeting Jedi quite often. He even had time to train Qui-Gon.
Sorry but this is more than a little far fetched.
It is far simpler to think that Maul was working with some other sith until he was killed in TPM. Dooku then filled the vacant spot in the Sith ranks.

Not really because the films show that the Jedi live quite busy lives, when they are not on missions, they live in the temple. Padme and Anakin had not seen much of each other before RotS. Anakin didn't see Padme at all in the time between TPM and AotC. Nor did he have time to free his mother from slavery, something that I am sure he wanted. That they had time to sleep with each other isn't indicative that they had loads of time together. The act it self can done in less than an hour. If you mean AotC then Anakin was assigned to protect Padme, he was not there in his spare time.

Dooku is evil and he could get satisfaction by telling Obi-Wan some truths mixed with lies and just enjoy his confusion.

Why is this the simplest? It forces a very narrow view, that there CAN'T be any other Sith than Mau and Dooku. The Sith have been in hiding for 1000 years without the Jedi being aware of them. So the Jedi now knows that the Sith are very good in keeping themselves hidden.

Also this:

This says quite clearly that the Jedi have been looking for another Sith. So this shows that the Jedi don't think Griev is a Sith. And that there is another Sith apart from Dooku.

No, the Jedi never see him use the Force, when they use the Force against him, he has no defense against it. Yoda sensed the Dark side in Dooku, no Jedi ever mention that they sense the dark side in Griev. Anakin senses Dooku, he doesn't sense Griev.
He is never identified as a Sith in the film. The Jedi council think that Obi-Wan alone is enough to deal with Griev. Why would they think this if Griev is a Sith? Obi-Wan has fought two siths one he beat the other defeated Obi-Wan with ease and not just once, but twice. So wouldn't Obi-Wan need some help? Their actions don't make a lot of sense unless they are certain that Griev is not a sith so Obi-Wan can deal with him no problem.

No he received lightsaber training, which anyone can get. He never uses the Force, even when it would aid him. He has no defense when people use the Force against him and no one in the film identifies him as a sith.
The Jedi talk about him often enough but they never use the term sith about him. They know that Dooku is a sith and if they think Griev is one, then they are close in wiping out the Sith for good. And yet they never mention that. Also, Anakin is the one who was supposed to destroy the Sith, if Griev is the last one, then only Anakin can kill him.

Pretty well? He ran away most of the time, the one time he tried to stand and fight against Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan beat him quickly and so he ran away again. Given Obi-Wans comment "And this time you won't escape." indicate that running away is Griev first option in a fight.

If Maul had not been able to use the Force, Qui-Gon could just have thrown him aside with the Force or used any kind of Force power against him. Also Qui-Gon was forced to flee from Maul. A regular person can learn to fight with a lightsaber but won't be able to stand up for long against a Jedi with their fast reflexes and senses. So logically only another Force user can stand up to a Jedi for long or make the Jedi run away.
Oh and one other thing, Maul used a RED lightsabre. Only Sith use those. And Griev did not.

Because he runs the seps armies, he is their general. The Jedi don't know where this other sith is or who he is so rather than chasing phantoms, the Jedi focus on the enemy they DO know about.

The Jedi are also able to sense something about Palpatine, that is why they have Anakin spy on him.
So it does seem that they are considering the possibility that there is sith influence over the senate.
Would that be Dooku or Griev? Unlikely. So another sith then.
This is then confirmed with Anakin saying "The one we have been looking for."

Take it up with the film, they say quite clearly that once Griev is dead, the war will be over. We see that Griev is the one running the war and the other seps have no say in the matter.

Dooku was seen as the seps leader in AotC and thus it was important that he be removed. Same thing in RotS, after Dooku, Griev is seen by the Jedi as the leader of the seps and once he is dead, the seps are defeated.

And how much time does it take to kill a person? A few seconds and Dooku had more than that.

And killing Palpatine, the leader of the republic would benefit him even more. The republic will now find itself without a leader. Add to that, Dooku has now removed his sith rival.

Not nearly as much as removing Palpatine. And he could kill them by blowing up their ships, he doesn't have to fight them in person. And why didn't Dooku take this opportunity to blast Coruscant good and hard? Once he got Palpatine, he could have ordered his ships to bombard the senate and the jedi temple. This would further weaken the republic.

Wait where did that come from, the Jedi would sense that Palpatine was killed? Why?
Nothing of the sort is ever established. Anakin tracks Palpatine through a signal, not sensing him through the Force.
So if Dooku for some reason wants a fight with Anakin and Obi-Wan, as opposed to just blowing up their ships, which would be easier and with less risk to him, then Palpatine's corpse would serve just fine as bait.
And Anakin sees Palpatine just sitting in a chair, a powerful sith that can't free himself from that?
Does it make much sense that Dooku managed to grab his sith rival and doesn't kill him but just puts him in a chair and then leaves. Palpatine would have no way of knowing that anyone would be able to reach him so he would act himself.

Yes based on the film this is a likely scenario.

So order an army in his own name, the Kamino people make armies for people that can afford to pay.
Also, Dooku told the other seps that with their droid army the Jedi would be overwhelmed and the republic quickly defeated. And the arena battle showed that well enough, the Jedi are cut down when faced with such huge odds. Obi-Wan heard Dooku's talk with the other seps, if Dooku had made the clone army for the seps, why didn't he bring it up at that meeting? No reason not to. Unless the army wasn't intended for the seps.

Wrong, you can do that just fine as long as you have enough money to pay with.
This then makes your whole argument fall apart. If Dooku wanted a clone army, he could have ordered one himself. And why would he order one for the Republic? By the time the army is done, Dooku is by now a know separatist so NOT a representative of the Republic so why would the Kamino people give the army to him? His name isn't on the order and he isn't working for the republic.

No, as I said, the film establishes that the Kamino only care about money so Dooku or any of the other seps could have ordered a clone army without problem. The Kamino people have made other armies in the past and those were not for the republic.

But Dooku can't claim it as the army is for the Republic, not him.
So if Dooku ordered the army, he meant for the republic to have it. If there was some sith in the republic that Dooku was fighting, his actions makes no sense. So logically Dooku and this other sith are working together and the clone war is a total fabrication.
Anakin and the rest of the jedi know enough to figure this out once they learn that Palpatine is the missing Sith Lord.

[/QUOTE]


The Jedi are aware of much of this and they have had time to ponder and wonder about this. Anakin knows that Dooku is a sith and now Palapatine is revealed to be one as well. Is he a former Jedi? No, that means he was always a sith. So he was a Sith long before TPM. Given the rule of two, that shows that Maul worked for Palpatine not Dooku. Once Maul was dead, Dooku took his place. Right until Palpatine had Anakin kill Dooku.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Obi-wan would disagree with you about Anakin not being tricked. According to him, Anakin was "deceived by a lie" and "has allowed this dark lord to twist his mind until now when he has become the very thing he has sworn to destroy". We have seen PalpSidious trick Anakin into believing that he's a helpless victim not once, but twice and both situations have led Anakin to murder Dooku and to betray Mace. When his betrayal allowed PalpSidious to blast Mace out of the office window, Anakin was scared out of his mind that he feels he has endangered his own life against the Jedi by helping a Sith lord. Anakin had no choice but to join the dark side and be PalpSidious' new apprentice so that he can lie to himself into believing that his actions won't doom the entire galaxy.

 

Actually, I think the lie Obi-wan was referring to was that Palpatine was a benevolent politician and not a Dark Lord of the Sith. The twisting definitely refers to Anakin going from being a good person and becoming a Sith Lord himself.

 

This far I follow your thinking - except to say I don't think that the Jedi "scoff" at Qui-Gon, but rather that they seem alarmed by the prospect.

Actually what you seem to describe here are problems in the story-telling, not problems regarding Jedi knowledge (I also don't see how the argument about the 'rule of two' being an impossible paradox is relevant at all. But I shall explain as I go along).

In terms of the story-telling there are a few items of interest to point out. One, the line is really for the benefit of the audience and in fact describes pretty efficiently the modus operandi of the Sith throughout the movies (that the whole Sith v Jedi 'history' and use as a driver of the narrative is unnecessary with regards to the tale told in the OT is a whole other jive, but you have offered here much meat for the grist...). Two, the Jedi seem to be aware of, and understand, the logic of that modus operandi. Three, my undestanding of the EU is limited but...it is my understanding that the 'old Sith' had no such modus operandi - and that is what brought them, ultimately, defeat. This raises a question (in terms of the story-telling); if the Jedi, just a few days earlier, knew nothing of the Sith and believed them destroyed 1000 years earlier - having no clue as to their continued existence - how did they manage to discover the rule of two? Which is not old Sith operational information but is, and is shown to be, new Sith operational information.

Again, yes this seems perfectly reasonable. Ten years would be a long time to be without an apprentice. However...maybe the Jedi feel that this has been time during which the Sith (whether formerly Master of Apprentice) has been training a new apprentice. But...

...yes, I can sort of see where you are going, and one would generally have to agree. However...

...it seems odd that the Jedi would be aware that their powers have been weakened by the darkside and yet, have no capacity for considering that the strange events are...in some way linked with the Sith. (And that is beside the point that a maximum of two Sith are able to weaken the combined forces of thousands of Jedi....rather undermining Yoda's words that the darkside isn't stronger - as does, in fact, the notion that a super-powerful chosen one is required to bring down one Sith Lord...but, I digress..)

At the time Obi-Wan finds it hard to conceive that a Sith Lord could be hiding within the Senate without the Jedi knowing. Odd, isn't it, that in one scene we have the Jedi discussing how their powers are diminished by the darkside and yet here Obi-Wan seems not to notice... Anyway, he certainly doesn't completely dismiss the idea, as he later asks Yoda whether he thinks it could be true.

First off I think the whole 'rule of two' as paradox is a red herring, personally. So, let's get that out of the way. Let's say that Dooku was trying to recruit Obi-Wan...that would, indeed, result in three Sith so it follows that Dooku, if he had a Master, felt that Obi-Wan was a powerful enough ally that he could manouvre against his Master (just as Vader tries to recruit Luke in TESB) - perhaps there is even a sense of 'fatherly' affection, as with Vader (with Dooku having been Qui-Gon's former Master). Whatever the situation, his attempt (if it were a real one) to recruit Obi-Wan would not complicate, in any way, the rule of two.

The question of whether Dooku was the Master, though, is thrown into huge doubt by his being formerly a Jedi Master. Not just because he is unlikely to have had the time to train an apprentice but also because....if he had managed to operate un-detected within the Jedi Order as a Sith Lord then why would he have left? He would be in the ideal place to undermine the Jedi from within.

But..all of this is pretty academic. The movies in no way attempt to establish that anybody believes that Dooku is the only Sith Lord operating at this time. The Jedi certainly don't act as if they believe that.

Which, again, is pretty academic because, as far as the movies show us, the Jedi are still searching for a Sith Lord. There seems little doubt among the Jedi that they are still looking for a Sith Lord (and, indeed, Anakin's status as the Chosen One, that he is to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith, would - if there were any doubt - be a moot point, and yet this is still referenced long after Dooku is dead)

The Jedi focus on Grievous is there because Palaptine tells them that as long as Grievous is still at large the Senate will continue to vote for the war to continue. They are responding to Palpatine's, and the Senate's, fear of Grievous. You've actually pointed out a subtle inference regarding the Jedi here that I had not noticed before. They are acting, specifically, in order to end the war. Not to win it.

No. And it isn't, as I see it, the thinking the Jedi have engaged in this thinking - see above, but there is more. Later.

No. There is not indication that Grievous is a Force user, at all. There is no sense in which he is ever referred to as a possible Sith. As has been pointed out, if he were then Anakin would have, and should have been sent (The Jedi are still talking of him as the Chosen One at this stage - re the discussion on the way to the landing platform)

Importantly, especially in regard to your attempt to big up Grievous as a potential Sith, the Jedi's focus is actually surrounding the Chancellor and his office. It seems they think that - regardless of whether Grievous is destroyed - the Sith threat still lurks somewhere in the Republic, somewhere surrounding the Chancellor. So, in short, Grievous as a Sith is a red herring - it is never suggested nor implied in the films, nor is it suggested or implied that the Jedi believe this to be the case, at all. But... there is more.

If Dooku was fighting against Palpatine then he had the perfect opportunity to kill him on the ship over Coruscant. Why would he wait for Anakin and Obi-Wan and then kill his real enemy? (in fact the whole kidnap stroyline is a bit... contrived here because, even if just the Chancellor, it would be in the interests of the Seps to just execute him. He was seen as important enough to the Republic cause, we are lead to believe, that a rescue mission is planned - by the by, for another thread, perhaps...).

Note, also, Anakin's phrasing; You're the Sith Lord

But there is more.

Here again we have to take into account Anakin's phrasing; "Yes. The one we have been looking for" Or "The one we have been looking for"

There's a couple of things to note about this. The Jedi have not been under the illusion that Dooku was the last of the Sith, nor were they in any way convinced that Grievous was a Sith. In fact, they have been concentrating their efforts around Palpatine's office. Mace's words here suggest that some, at least, of the Council have been considering that Palpatine himself may be the Sith Lord; "The our worst fears have been realised.."

The rule of two is explained as relating to a Master and an apprentice and the Jedi have been looking for one Sith ("the one we've been looking for"; "You're the Sith") - they are not looking for other Sith...which, had Dooku and Palpatine been at loggerheads they should have..

Anakin knows. He, along with the other Jedi, have been looking for one Sith Lord, singular. They have been looking for just one Sith Lord because they know that Dooku has been in league with that other one - as Master and Apprentice, just as the rule of two is explained in TPM.

That is why, when Palpatine asks if Anakin is going to kill him he replies "I would very much like to" - because he knows what Palpatine has been up to, and it hasn't been a battle against Dooku. It is why he doesn't question how Palpatine knows that the Separatists are on Mustafar, or why he does not seem perturbed or confused that they greet him as Lord Vader and tell him they have been expecting him...

 

1. Who says? The movie said. Re-watch the Gungan scene where Boss Nass tells them they need to go through the planet core to get to the city. Planet core. The center of the planet. Meaning they are on the other side.
2. A little detail would have been nice. Lazy writing. Motivation of the enemy force would be a positive to have in the movie.
3. Eh.
4. Too over confident. Led to their downfall partly.
5. Nah, just a poor screenwriting excuse to have "comic relief" from Jar Jar. And yes that is in quotes.
6. Instead of delaying action, he should have taken the word of the Jedi sent to settle the dispute.
7. I still maintain it was too fast and needed more time (or explanation).

If I dislike it, why just ignore it? I can't. It's here to stay. And is that not what these boards are for? To discuss, critique, air our opinions, etc. of Star Wars? Or should we just like anything Lucas stamps the Star Wars logo on?

 

Of course you can. That's a choice you make. If you want to keep at it, though, you're welcome to do so.

1. I never took that as meaning they were on the other side, but you may be right.
I guess it's just a small planet, as indicated by the opening scroll

2. I've heard this complaint before, but I just don't see it. They're a federation arguing with the Republic over trade taxes and they've apparently made a deal with Sidious, who can't have promised them anything less than victory over the Republic. He claims to have control of the bureaucracy and they obviously believe him.

3. Yeah: "Be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan", "Remember; concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts", "Nothing happens by accident", "Finding him was the will of the Force. I have no doubt of that".
It's made abundantly clear what motivates him.

4. Exactly.

5. Another point is that Jar Jar was Qui-Gon's responsibility. It wouldn't really be fair to the others to leave him in their hands, would it?

6. He sent them in secret. He was breaking the rules by doing so. No matter what they told him, he couldn't officially act on it. He was also controlled by the bureaucracy, which made him essentially powerless. That's why he sent the Jedi in the first place, so he wouldn't have to deal with the kind of situation that arises in the movie.

7. I respectfully disagree.





Motivations are clear
/LM

 

Lucas had filmed scenes with Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, Fang Zar and others which would show the seeds of the Alliance. But Lucas cut these scenes as they slowed down the action and he wanted more time with Anakin and Obi-wan. The film indicates that Palpatine's growing popularity has blinded many in the Senate to his side.

 

Edit: Double Post.

 

In consultation with heels1785 I thought it would be a good idea to dust off this old thread. Seems that many here like to get in-depth with various plot-holes or examples of questionable story logic in the PT. These discussions sometimes take over threads that weren't intended for that type of debate. This is a way to try to contain those conversations to one thread. To be clear: this isn't a prequel bashing forum any more than the equivalent thread in the OT section is an OT bashing forum. That thread has been running for a long time & has worked well. TFA also has similar threads. They're all meant for civil & constructive discussion. This one is no different.

So...people should feel free to discuss & dissect any kooky plot irregularities here.

 

Really? Because he's too tall to fit in such a narrow wing? Thats a laugh. Anyone know if this applies to the fighters in AOTC or ROTS or both?

 

Yes, you're right. For some odd reason, they do.

A thread about "The Prequels Strike Back" -- shut down after not even two full pages.

This thread? Re-opened/dusted off (admittedly after a period of stasis) and already on twenty-eight pages.

Okay...

 

Curious, isn't it?






Sorry about the opening, I just couldn't resist. In all serious if people want to talk about this sort of stuff, then by all means they should be able to. Even if I personally am not overly enthusiastic about it. However, I do think the point Cryo implied is one that merits some thought.

 

Thanks, Darthman92.

Yeah, I can't see the harm in threads like this one -- live and let live.

I might even say that this thread is, in some sense, unfairly broad; as if confining issues that might be better ventilated in stand-alone, specialized threads.

However, well...

I said my piece above.

 

Interested to read just exactly what it is you perceive to be,'odd'' about fans legitimately pointing out plot holes and iffy narrative logic in the PT.

 

Well, let me put it this way and leave it at this:

It's more odd with some people than it is with others.

 

Be nice to get on topic rather than talking about other members or the worth of each thread.

Both. For both fighters they "cheated" in terms of the astromech units. As explained here at 1.20:



Also...

Haven't noticed those before. This old thread is an interesting read.

 

I believe the original intention, at least for AOTC, was that R4 was a modified astromech, with the head wired directly into the ship. That explains why we don't see the top of his legs, and why he never leaves the ship at any point.

Of course, ROTS makes that explanation irrelevant, and R2 is clearly just a normal Astromech.

 

In which case I'd question the use of him at all. He can't move around the ship & make repairs when it lands somewhere. In-flight he can't do anything to an entire half of the ship. May as well just have & on-board computer.

 

I think it's implied that Obi-Wan let's R4 do the flying most of the time. He's not a big fan of it, and droids have been shown be able to fly the ship on their own.

 

True, but again he's really just an in-built computer who looks like a droid's head. The whole advantage of an R2 unit in a ship is his mobility & ability to repair all areas of the ship. Not just to act as an auto-pilot & navigator. Any computer could do that. By making R4 a head installed into a ship like that he's essentially a computer rather than a droid.

 

Actually, R4 was supposed to leave the ship and wander about, before being destroyed by either a Geonosisan or some other means. But this was never finished and so it was stated that R4 was part of the ship.

 

He became one with the ship.

 

& R2 in the RotS fighter is a blatant cheat. Unless they also detached his head & stuck him on the ship.