PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6

    This is clearly spelled out in the ROTS novel. As far as Dooku knew, the plan for that duel was for him to kill Obi-Wan and lose to Anakin. Sidious promised Dooku that he would then step in and convince Anakin to spare him.
  2. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    And he bought that?

    Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    On the latter point, the Jedi thought Palpatine was their ally until ROTS, so they would have no reason to have a problem with Anakin's friendship with him. That might make them naive, or it might make Palpatine just that good. What the Jedi, other than Obi-Wan, did not account for, was Anakin's loyalty to people as opposed to ideals, therefore only Obi-Wan envisioned the consequences of asking him to spy on Palpatine.

    On courtly love, yeah. If a guy ever said he was haunted by a kiss I should have never given him, I'd probably ask WTF he had been smoking and where I could get some. That's not really the point though, as Anakin and Padme's love story was not meant to be typical of "our world". By our standards, Romeo and Juliet and Tristan and Iseut are pretty damn creepy (a lot creepier than Anakin IMO).

    Padme's opinion of the Tuskens: she knew that they had kidnapped a kind, innocent woman and slowly tortured her to death, murdered 26 farmers who tried to rescue her, and cut off Cliegg Lars' leg. By that standard, the term "animals" is an insult to animals. If Anakin had randomly attacked a Tusken camp simply because he didn't like their looks, I would agree. Heck, if Tatooine had a justice system and there were options other than "Anakin killing them" or "their getting away with kidnapping, torture and murder", I would agree.
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's covered in Labyrinth of Evil:
  5. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 3

    Padme was naive and idealistic at that point.
    .


    I never thought Padmè as naive past TPM she's more impulsive and self righteous than anything else.
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I agree. I believe that Captain Typho would also agree. And I would add arrogant to the mix.
  7. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Sure, but it's never ever hinted at in the film...

    Casual viewers and people who haven't read the novel before could really be confused and amazed.

    Why doesn't Dooku, when all is lost for him and he realises Palpy has double-crossed him, doesn't even try to warn Anakin or tell the truth by revenge (allthough I aknowledge he's in really bad shape...[face_laugh] and all this occurs pretty fast) ? Of course Anakin trusts Palpatine and the later could easily answer all this is non-sense, but then again...There's a Sith lord unidentified somewhere.

    Palpy/Sidious plan regarding Dooku at that moment is pretty unclear in the movie, although of course predictable since most people know Anakin will eventually become his apprentice.

    Lke CT-867-5309 mentions above, Dooku really ends up pretty dumb right here, whereas he's portrayed so far as a twisted but clever, regal and cunning former Jedi...
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's why the ROTS novel runs circles around the film. There is so much going on inside each character's head, and that is nearly impossible to portray on screen.

    Yeah, one could say that Dooku should know the Rule of Two and therefore looks pretty stupid there. It is, however, somewhat of a parallel to the ROTJ throne room scene, in which the Emperor tries to convince Luke to become the new, younger apprentice by killing the old one.
  9. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    To me, the only real logic flaw of the PT lies in the screenplay, and deals with Anakin's turn and Palpatine/the Emperor's character.

    How the hell can Anakin, although troubled and flawed, over-attached to close people, and obssessed with saving his wife from a foreseen death, join the man who at the time he must clearly figure out to be the Sith lord that contemplated the Naboo events in TPM, surely agreed to the assassination attempt on his beloved wife in AOTC, by no doubt envisioned the whole war, the end of the Republic and the almost extermination of the Jedi order.

    Had Palpatine been not the puppet-master of everything from the beginning, at least of the Clone Wars, but only exploiting events he was not responsible for, not been purely evil from the onstart although of course a master of the dark side of the Force, only making his way progressively to replace the Republic he thought to be a weak, corrupted, decaying and uneffective body, and becoming progressively more and more evil, then Anakin's turn would really have been easier to swallow for many people.

    That's the way I had personnally, roughly and casually of course, imagined, or hoped more or less the backstory and the general frame of the Republic's fall, before the PT came out. Although of course it was pure speculation on my part, not necessary and in a way dangerous. Couldn't help. Indeed I was proved completely wrong and G.Lucas wrote something else.

    But in the end, looking back, I really think this issue is the real logic flaw of the trilogy.
  10. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    You're right. Vader's behavior in ROTJ appears kind of strange too. And indeed the parallel is somewhat welcome and functions pretty well on that regard.

    But I tend here to endorse the casual viewer point of vue. I am myself a "basic" SW fan, almost completely ignoring the EU when watching the movies (except maybe for the novelizations I read).

    The mainstream viewer and non SW specialist only hears about the "Rule of two" at the end of TPM, when Yoda briefly speaks to Mace during Qui-Gon's funeral. "Always two there are. No more. No less". No more I would say...

    But don't get me wrong. Although unclear, I dont think it's a major flaw or complete logic flaw in the PT.
  11. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    While I mostly agree with you that it seems unrealistic Anakin joining Sidious so abruptly, this one point kind of stood out as not necessarilly true. IMO Anakin blames Dooku and Gunray for any threat to Padme's life, not Sidious. Anakin joining him makes more sense this way. I don't think Anakin ever blames Sidious for her death, even at the very end of ROTS. Anakin loathes the Seperatists, and true, the Sith in general, but to me his frame of mind about Sidious, even after finding out he is the Sith Lord, never involves blaming Sidious for Padme's death. Of course, he isn't thinking straight, but I feel this fact (Sidious not caring if Padme dies) never really surfaces. After all, Sidious is the one trying to help him save her. Yes, he is selling his soul to the devil for a quick solution when he pledges to the Sith, but IMO it isn't completely out of nowhere.
    I think even in the OT he still blames the Jedi for what happened, and the Rebels as a similar threat to stability that the Seperatists were.
  12. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    This is actually the result of Lucas trying to copy classic tales and incorporate them into the modern world, which doesn't always go well. Classic tales both occur and were made presumably in a time when people were unaware of the lessons in them, in modern times we expect people to know better. I know it's supposed to be a long, long time ago, but the advanced civilizations undermine that setting.

    It's like Anakin has never been told a story, or read a book, or is at all aware of the all the classic lessons every child learns growing up.

    Anakin is literally making a deal with the devil, he has to realize that. Doesn't he know how those turn out? Hasn't he heard of the Star Wars galaxy's version of Faust, or anything Faustian? Mephisto? Ghost Rider? Bedazzled? Rosemary's Baby? The Devil Went Down to Georgia? Did he see the Simpsons episode where Homer tries to sell his soul for a donut?

    Damn, this is something so common in our world, it has to be in his. No one has taught him this lesson? Oh wait, they did, because in ROTS he seems to have the basic knowledge of the Sith, they're super evil. Yet, he eats up the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise as if it's some sort of miracle. So it comes off that not only does Anakin sell his soul, but he's an idiot to believe making a deal with the devil will turn out well.

    Perhaps it would have been more tragic if Anakin was somehow unaware that Palpatine was the devil.

    Just another Lucas homage, but one that backfired.

    How about the next cliche, the self-fulfilling prophecy. Hasn't he heard of this? Has he heard of the Star Wars galaxy's version of Oedipus, Macbeth, The Matrix, or Harry Potter? Haven't the Jedi warned him of it? Yoda tries to warn him, but Anakin blows him off completely. Yoda later warns Luke about it, with basically the same result.

    In Oedipus, as far as I know the dad (can't remember his name) didn't have anyone to warn him about prophecies. Oedipus himself was unaware that the King was his dad when he killed him and he certainly didn't know he was banging his mother. Anakin knowingly choked his own wife to death (basically), the very thing he sold his soul to prevent. Not quite as tragic as doing it accidentally or unknowingly. Shouldn't have made that deal.

    Another Lucas homage, but a twisted one and not for the better imo.

    I think the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker would have worked better if Lucas made Anakin a better, more likable person. Not a bad start in TPM, totally ruined in AOTC, not much better in ROTS. It's a tragedy, you want me to feel bad for the guy, right? I'm not going to feel bad for a moron I don't like. It has to be unfortunate for it to be tragic, and Anakin deserved everything coming to him.

    Maybe I'm just tired of the same old tales, the same old lessons. Maybe I want something entirely new. As a little kid, this was all new. I've heard them all a million times now. Maybe that's why Lucas insists this stuff is for kids.

    Or maybe I would have liked it all if it was just done better.
  13. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    You have a point. The only thing I can think of is what you have already stated; Star Wars is set in the past. Considering how much the characters are supposed to be symbolic, and archetypes, it makes sense that they wouldn't be that self-aware. Hard to explain what I mean though.

    Hard to say if Anakin did know Palpatine was the devil. I think deep down he did. I mean look at the way he turns away during the pledge scene. He can't look at Sidious. That soon fades though, possibly because of the darkside mojo Sidious is working, and Anakin resigning to his fate, the only visible way out of his dilemma.
    I disagree that Lucas screwed up completely on this subject. It's clever the way Sidious dangles the possibility of cheating death, and the story of Plagueis, over Anakin. For Anakin, it probably seemed to good to be true. Palpatine tells him of a power that happens to be exactly what he needs, and when everything starts to go to hell (when Mace is killed), siding with an old colleague (despite the fact he is evil :p) is an almost instant solution. As he gets further in, using the darkside like a drug, he starts to lose track of why he sold his soul in the first place. But I'm probably stating the obvious here. It can be also noted that the same force is used by both darksiders and lightsiders, and Anakin might see Sidious as the lesser of two evils. Or maybe not. But I don't see why Anakin would necessarilly predict doom from siding with him, when the force doesn't include a god figure and a devil figure. He's tapping into the force from a new perspective, and thanks to Sidious' teachings, and Anakin's somewhat ambiguous ideals, it doesn't register as something that can only turn out bad. Siding with Palpatine at this point is understandably an attractive prospect.

    I agree about AOTC, it's the weak link of the saga for me. However, I find it a bit harsh to say Anakin got what he deserved... it's obviously tragic when a character who tries so hard not to lose everything brings into motion the loss of everything he feared losing, and more. His futile struggle is frustrating
  14. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Sidious entanglements in trying to kill Padme in AOTC is not crucial here. Maybe I was a bit to fast. It's true Palpatine and Dooku's role is really hard to figure out, given how intricate the situation is at the end of AOTC. And, of course, Anakin has great trust and respect for Palpatine, who indeed offers him to save Padme's life. It's just that, when all is reavealed and the shroud falls, it's pretty clear that the Sith were in league with the Trade Federation and Gunray, who ordered the assassination's attempts. Anakin is anyway about to turn Palpatine/Sidious over to the Jedi Council and does it...He now knows Palpy's somewhat treacherous and evil. And he buys his promise to save his wife's life...

    Actually, the only way to buy Anakin joining Palpatine/Sidious is, indeed, to consider that the uncontrolable fear of loosing his wife and children completely clouds and twists his vision and understanding of the whole situation. I aknowledge gladly that Sidious plan is really machiavelian and mind-boggling though. Anyway, it was, given how the story unfolds and Palpatine's evil deeds, the only way to make it understandable, if not realistic or believable.

    Personally, and I guess for other people too, it's really hard to swallow, I mean that pact with the "Devil" arc. Of course it's reminiscent of myths and legends like Faust, is dramatic and "poetic" like G.Lucas said, and those films are made essentially for children and young teenagers, became modern myth. But I guess I was really completely baffled and disappointed by this because it seems to me pretty out of tone with the OT story. Just couldn't imagine Anakin Skywalker, the gifted Jedi knight and war hero, basically good and heroïc, although flawed like many, making such a conscious pact with Evil, only to save his wife in the end.

    It's definitely subjective and personal though. And it works fine for many people, not only children.
  15. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Fair enough. It is an important point to me though.
    The way Anakin leaves Gunray to last during the Seperatist slaughter on Mustafar says alot. He feigns interest as Nute tries to reason with him then, I think, revels in his death the most. If you think about it, Anakin/Vader personally kills all three parties most responsible for putting Padme in danger; Dooku, Gunray, and eventually Sidious. Kinda trippy.

    For a movie series that is supposed to appeal to children, it can be quite confusing. The past discussions on Palpatine's true plan in The Phantom Menace were an interesting display of this. The element of having to think for yourself, analyse, and take your own influences into the movies is present in all of Star Wars IMO. It really is a fan-rewarding series.

    Having Anakin and Palpatine form a relationship soon after TPM was a wise move.
    To me, Anakin's mindset after finding out Palpatine is Sidious is quite chaotic. He certainly becomes aware that both the Jedi and Sidious have been using him. In the turn scene his mind, IMO, is flipping between the perception of Palpatine as a vulnerable old man (which he knows deep down isn't true), or as arguably the most powerful man in the galaxy. It would be hard to completely re-write your perception of the person, even after finding out he was a Sith.

    True. You have to keep in mind that he wants Palpatine arrested so he can pump him for information, not have him executed.
    His instant reaction to finding out is mind-blown anger, afterall ending the Sith is what he has been trained, and prophesised, to do. The stress of being pulled in two (or more) directions is clear when he doesn't kill Sidious on the spot. Things are spiralling, and eventually keeping Sidious alive at any cost seems the easiest release. I like Palpatine's delivery during the pledge scene of "Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side of the force to save Padme". Kind of a soothing sympathetic tone. Obviously faked though :p

    Like I sort of said earlier, these characters can't be aware of stories like this, they're in one. Star Wars, to me, occupies a very surreal plain and/or atmosphere, and in my opinion should be detatched from the logic of our world. Everything is happening on a symolic level, a simple gesture or line from a character can have echoing repurcussions over the whole saga. Something about Star Wars, at least most of the time, makes me just buy it. Can't say why, but the story takes me away.

    It does flow with the OT and it doesn't. On one le
  16. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    It's like Anakin has never been told a story, or read a book, or is at all aware of the all the classic lessons every child learns growing up.


    I think many of you would be surprised by the number of human beings who are incapable of learning the lessons of childhood. Even more, you would be surprised at the number of people who learned the wrong lessons from their parents or other authority figures. What happened to Anakin - at least from an emotional point of view - is nothing new. And I get the feeling that many people cannot or refuse to understand this.
  17. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Exactly.

    That's one of the things I was trying to convey actually. It is basically how I feel about most of ROTS and the whole turn issue.

    And what I really didn't expect and hope...I mean the Force was already there in itself.
  18. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    There's a huge leap between understanding and actually enjoying it.
  19. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    He feigns interest, maybe. He might also be having second thoughts, since the slaying of Gunray would, for him, be another "point of no return". This scene could be considered one of several last pangs of consience from Anakin. On the other hand, maybe he drags out Gunray's murder purely for sadistic reasons. What's interesting, to me, is not so much that Anakin lets Gunray plead, but that he executes him after Gunray says, "We only want..." It would seem that Anakin was incensed to hear Gunray argue from personal desire/greed, as one of Gunray's personal desires, of course, was to have Padme assassinated in the previous movie. It also makes the scene more ironic: Anakin is there, killing the Separatists, out of his own selfish wants and desires (saving Padme, where Gunray, to repeat, wanted her dead). This is one of my favourite details in ROTS' darkest hour.
  20. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    Another one from AOTC:

    What is the logic in having only those slow 6 legged walkers and those gigantic SPHA-T machines? One could make the argument that maybe the kaminoians didn't know what kind of machines the Seperatists would be using, but still, the GAR ( In the movie) only have those gunships, and walkers to use...
  21. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2010
    star 3
    I thought that was a little bit too much of an attempt at a throw back to ESB/Hoth. I'm not sure why the Republic ships that carried all of those troops to Geonosis didn't just bombard that part of the planet before trying to land any forces there. That is one part of Star Wars that never really made sense to me, the lack of planetary bombardment in the movies. It sure turns up in the games a lot. The arena didn't seem to be very close to the battle zone, so that shouldn't have been an issue. Then after the ground forces have been softened up a bit, land the walker and troops. The size of the walkers was weird also like you said. It would be like the US using only M1 Abrams tanks in a battle and nothing else.
  22. Pendulous_Dewlap Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    Sure, it's illogical - not to mention impractical - but it makes the action sequence more entertaining to watch. I actually thought the ground battle in Episode II was fairly exciting, even if it did feel a bit like a visual effects reel run amok. The same cannot be said for the Ray Harryhausen-inspired arena scene that preceded it. That was dull.
  23. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I don't want to keep bashing Ep2 needlessly, but I have to agree with this point. The Jedi don't feel mythical in this scene, something I don't say about any of the other five installments. It's just corny. And random. *Sigh*
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I would go with "refuse". A lot of people stand for a political philosophy which is, morally speaking, tantamount to a deal with the devil for personal gain.
  25. Pendulous_Dewlap Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    It's a lousy action sequence. If I need a fix of Ray Harryhausen, I'll watch The 7th Voyage of Sinbad or Jason and the Argonauts; I don't think this kind of nonsense belongs in the Star Wars universe. I want something that's epic and transporting, not derivative. It's comparable to when Lucas quoted Seven Chances during the battle of Naboo in Episode I; I don't need to see Buster "Jar Jar" Keaton trying to avoid an avalanche of Naboo Energy Balls (that just sounds wrong, doesn't it?).
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