PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Gungan Energy Balls sounds worse; yet it's more accurate. :p

    The actual word is "booma". [face_plain] :rolleyes: [face_dancing]

    And the balls are blue. Lucas "blue-balled" hardcore OT fans? [face_whistling] [face_whistling] [face_whistling]
  2. Pendulous_Dewlap Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    You've just managed to conjure some pretty terrifying imagery, I'll give you that.

    Nerd. :p

    Lol! That's one way to put it....
  3. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    If only Lucasfilm licenced Gungan Energy Balls. I'd have loved to chew on some as a kid. All that zing!

    "But mesa don't have-a sa booma!"

    Whilst allowing Jar Jar to relinquish them and letting them roll down a hill and explode against cold metal (tanks).

    "Ouch time!"
  4. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Did anyone notice "bombad" has opposite meanings in TPM?

    JAR JAR: Yousa guys bombad! (good)

    BOSS NASS: Yousa bringen da Mackineeks. Yousa all bombad. (bad)

    GUNGAN KING: Wesa maken yousa Bombad General! (good)

    So does it mean bad or good... :p
  5. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I suppose, it's a bit like the English word "terrible".

    Or a similar word like "wicked".

    Or not.

    In some languages, the same word, with a slightly different inflection, can have about five different meanings, I believe. Just look at the bout of silliness I engaged in above!

    It's kind of a clever riff by Lucas, I think. What Lucas is saying, without really saying it, is that all language -- written, verbal, visual, musical, etc. -- requires interpretation. Because, otherwise, as the "bombad" example proves, it's all just noise.

    "This is getting out of hand! Now there are two of them!" In order to not be perpetually overwhelmed by even the simple doubling of entities, we need to appreciate subtle differences, and attempt to put things into some sort of schema to help make sense of why they are the way they are. Communication. Connection. Understanding.

    Think of Luke S. (Lucas) connecting to Vader and a million things in-between. "Hey, Jar Jar, keep away from those energy binders. If your your hand gets caught in the beam, it's gonna go numb for hours..." We're always caught in the beam, always going numb. Reason? We don't appreciate the true nature -- and pow-ah! -- of things that bind.
  6. Pendulous_Dewlap Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    Your tongue will go numb for hours.:p
  7. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I fundamentally disagree. The core purpose of Star Wars is for it to be primarily (face-value) a classic morality tale ? meaning the fundamental moral lessons of life (even if you may consider them out-dated they are never-the-less eternally relevant and important) are illustrated. Fairy tales and classic myths are forever important ? the man of antiquity knew the same morality and knowledge as we know today, however
  8. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Good post Darth Philosophor. I wholeheartedly agree.


    Interesting. The thing you said about a word with different inlection reminds me of Chewbacca. This seems like a good example, Chewies "waaaow" can mean many different statements to Han.

    CHEWIE: Waaaow
    HAN: You found him in a junk pile?
  9. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    There are also Artoo's bleeps and whistles...

    The Ewoks' "yee-cha!", "yee-cha!"s...

    Not to mention all the consternation that surrounds the translation of "bantha poodoo".

    Really, there are any number of these simplified "dialects" in Star Wars, to say nothing of recurring shapes, patterns, lines, sounds, gestures, ideas, situations and events.
  10. Shira_French_Cheese Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2010
    star 1
    From TMC:

    During the fight with Maul, while Obi-wan is trying to get past the energy fields in order to cath up with Qui-gon, why didn't he use his Force speed ability that he showcased earlier in the film?
  11. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Click HERE :p
  12. Shira_French_Cheese Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2010
    star 1
    Damn, that actually makes sense. :oops:
  13. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    nothing matters when you can have this result"

    Even after the movie was over, we kept talking about why Anakin made the choices he made. As much as the boys thought they wanted to see Anakin finally put on the black armor and become Darth Vader, once they finally got to that place, they seemed crushed by it. It's one thing to be told that someone is a bad guy, but it's another thing to watch a character that they had come to love and enjoy slowly crumble and turn to evil. For the first time, they understand that evil is not just something you call yourself, but a direct reflection of the choices you make. They watched Anakin Skywalker go from a happy child to a confused young man to a hero and a husband, and then they watched him throw it all away and kill everyone who trusted him, attacking his own pregnant wife, and finally ending up burnt and broken and locked forever inside a suit of metal, and it hurt them. And for the first time, seeing the way it played for them, it genuinely hurt me. The tears I shed as we wrapped up our night and I put them both to bed were because they realize tonight that the world is a place where good people can make bad choices and end up in an awful place. The world is a darker place tonight for them than it was on Saturday morning, and it hurts to see a little piece of their innocence shut down. You can complain about "Star Wars" and problems you have with the films all day long, but this silly space opera has led to some of the most intense conversations with my kids that I've ever had.

    More than ever, I'm glad I picked the order I did to show the films, because now they're ready for "Jedi" in a big way. They want to see the Emperor punished. They want to see Anakin redeemed. And I'm not really sure how i'm going to handle that last fight. This morning, as I was driving Toshi to his baseball game, he was still asking me questions, and his single question almost made me drive off the road. "Daddy? I just thought of something."

    "What's that, buddy?"

    "Luke Skywalker has to kill his daddy, doesn't he?"

    "Looks that way."

    "Daddy? can you promise me something?" I could hear the emotion in his voice, how close to tears he was, and I got worried.

    "Of course. What's that?"

    "Please don't be a bad guy."
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin should NOT take the blame off of Sidious for what Dooku and the Seperatists have done because they all work for him. He commanded the Sepertists and he is Dooku's master so every action they've made were on his behalf. To quote James Kirk, "As captain of the enterprise, I am responsible for the conduct of the crew under my command". Therefore, Sidious is responsible for their assassination attempts against Padme. Anakin of all people should've known this and he should blame Sidious for everything including Padme's death since he did trick him into believing that joining the Dark Side would save her when it didn't. Unfortunately, as you've pointed it out, Anakin isn't thinking straight and he's lying to himself about the Jedi and the Rebels being evil. Speaking of the Rebels, they are nothing like the Seperatists since they aren't being duped by a Sith Lord into creating a war nor are they fighting for monetary purposes.
  15. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    When I said the Seperatists and the Rebels are similar, I meant entirely from Vader's point of view. Also in mirrors between the trilogies, which tend to be quite opposite. Sorry I wasn't clear, but in the OT I obviously root for the Rebels.
    The Seperatists' cause was far more selfish than the Rebels' plight, and the similarity I see is in how they were dealt with by Vader.

    On the subject of Anakin lying to himself, I agree. The Jedi weren't plotting against the Republic from his POV until their actions were a threat to his link to saving Padme. He is taking the easy way out.

    About Sidious being responsible for the threats on Padme's life, I still don't think Anakin should necessarilly have believed this. IMO, compared to Sidious, Dooku was more hands-on with the Seperatists in Episode 2. And Gunray's vendetta was personal. I don't feel Sidious was giving direct orders to kill Padme, afterall there is the possibility that he knew keeping her alive for the time being would be beneficial in turning Anakin. While that point is mereley speculation, I generally feel Anakin would not have held Sidious responsible for the threat on Padme's life. He personally kills everyone else responsible, after all.

    On your comment "he should blame Sidious for everything including Padme's death since he did trick him into believing that joining the Dark Side would save her when it didn't" I don't see why. Of course, we can see Sidious had no real compassion for Padme, and revels in it when she finally dies, but for Anakin it isn't a result of Sidious not delivering on his promise. Padme dies for
  16. Shira_French_Cheese Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2010
    star 1
    Got a few more that you guys hopefully(!?) can refute:

  17. Why didn't the Trade Federation just blow up Qui-gon and Obi-wan's ship at the beginning of TPM if they were planning on killing them anyway?


  18. Why are there sentient slaves on Tatooine while they might as well just use droids?


  19. Nitpicky one: So why exactly does Qui-gon very conveniently carries a blood sampler around when he came across Anakin?


  20. Why exactly does an invasion become legal after the signing of a treaty? Isn't that kind of silly?
  21. EHT New Films Manager

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    The way this is posted, it's hard to tell if this is copied from somewhere or if it's relaying your own experience. I ask only because it's very profound, and it reminds me of conversations I've had with my son. I will say that the scenes of ROTJ with Vader, Luke, and Palpatine make it worthwhile, though. The fact that Luke does not kill Vader, that he throws down his weapon, and that he then gets saved from certain death by his father at the last minute resonates strongly with my son... and he often chooses ROTJ during our SW viewings because of these scenes.
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    To quote that british general from the Mel Gibson film, The Patriot, "You serve me and the manner in which you serve me, reflects upon me". Sidious didn't have to order either Dooku nor the Seperatists to have Padme killed because his association with them makes him just as guilty as they are. Any action they make can and should be traced back to him since he formed the Seperatists and corrupt Dooku into becoming his apprentice. Therefore, again, Anakin should blame Sidious for this.

    Its true that Anakin would blame himself for causing Padme's death but if he didn't have his head up his own ass, he'd realize that none of this would've happened if he hadn't foolishly accepted Sidious' offer to be his apprentice. It was Sidious who lured Anakin down this path by making up the whole Darth Plagueis story as a way to trick him into harming Padme. If I were Anakin, I would've delivered the old Force-choke on Sidious for making me ruin my own life but Anakin is too busy hating on himself for what he did to Padme.
  23. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I see what you are saying but, due to several factors, Anakin just doesn't blame Sidious for Padme's death. There is another quote I think has relevance here;

    COUNT DOOKU: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help. He told me everything.

    This seems to imply to me that Sidious was not directly controlling Gunray, at least, not at the time of AotC.

    Hmm. I disagree that the story of Darth Plagueis was made up. The way I interpreted it... Palpatine has faith that Plagueis indeed did have this power. Sidious just didn't know how to achieve it. And "as a way to trick him into harming Padme"? While he obviously didn't care about Padme, I doubt that Sidious orchestrated his plan with any specific intent of harming her. Afterall, she was a useful tool in turning Anakin, if nothing else.

    Nothing I see about this in the OT contradicts Revenge of the Sith. "You don't know the power of ther darkside. I must obey my Master". Anakin has believed in Sidious' power from the start. A telling moment is when Anakin delivers the news to Mace about Palpatine's true identity - "The Chancellor is very powerful. You'll need my help if you are going to arrest him". That says a lot about Anakin's mindset at this stage. Several moments re-enforce Anakin's faith in Palpatine, particularly in ROTS and ROTJ where Sidious' claravoyance often turns out to be accurate. And his subserviance to The Emperor is fitting when you see Sidious rescuing Vader on Mustafar. The Jedi "overthrow the Republic", "turn
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    And yet, we see Gunray still doing business with Sidious in ROTS. That tells us that not only is Dooku lying about Sidious betraying Gunray, but that Sidious does have some direct control over him (until Vader shows up to kill him).

    So Anakin is gonna let his faith in Sidious' power blind him from the fact that this is the same troublemaker who's been the cause of everyone's problems including his own? He's going to ignore the knowledge that Sidious trained the Sith lords that killed Qui-Gon(Maul)and severed Anakin's arm(Dooku)? Not to mentioned that Sidious hired the very people that tried to kill Padme? If that's the case, then Anakin IS the logic flaw in the prequal trilogy.
  25. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Shira_French_Cheese
    Got a few more that you guys hopefully(!?) can refute:


    Q: Why didn't the Trade Federation just blow up Qui-gon and Obi-wan's ship at the beginning of TPM if they were planning on killing them anyway?

    A:Because the TF didnt know the Chancellor would send jedi knights. But once they found out, he contacted Lord Sidious, who told them to kill the jedi immediately.


    Q:Why are there sentient slaves on Tatooine while they might as well just use droids?

    A:In TPm we see droids do smaller tasks but not larger ones. It's likely the costs of maintaining the needed droids for labor in a extremely dry and dusty region is prohibitive.


    Q:Nitpicky one: So why exactly does Qui-gon very conveniently carries a blood sampler around when he came across Anakin?

    A:This one is harder to answer.


    Q:Why exactly does an invasion become legal after the signing of a treaty?

    A:Because the TF would have the signature of the Queen, lending legitimacy to the invasion. In other words, the TF likely had all the excuses why they had to invade for the Naboo's own good and then the queen's sig would lend credence and legality to those actions.
  26. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    I don't know. For all the kaminoians claim to be, military strategists seems not to be their forte, despite having over 10 years prep time. 6 legged walkers that move slow as heck while the other side has tanks and those huge wheel droids? In the animatics sequence on the AOTC for the geonosis battle, there were clone troopers on the speeder bikes who put bombs on the underside of the spider droids. If only that was in the movies.

    Anyway, why the kaminoians never contacted anyone from the republic in the 10 years between TPM and AOTC is a mystery...
  27. The_living_force Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2002
    star 1
    I do believe that there was originally supposed to be an air battle between the big republic cruisers and the separatists battleships. I think the area was supposed to be surrounded by separatist battle-cruisers, in fact I've always had an incling that Obi-wan's line 'there's an unusual amount of federation starships over there R4' was originally meant to be him seeing the orbiting ships, I just don't think it fits with him saying 'over there' while flying straight over them so I think maybe it was a reused line or something, especially after I read about the abandoned airbattle. I don't think we've seen any animatics of it or anything but I've read it somewhere, probably in a 'making of' or 'the art of' book. Anyway this would be an explanation to why there wasn't any planetary bombardment, the cruisers were to busy fighting of the separatists ships.
  28. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  29. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    Even still, the fact that they not once wondered when the republic was going to get their army is a mystery..
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