PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't think they expected the army to be collected before it was even ready.
  2. PrincessKenobi New Films Manager of DOOM

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    Aug 12, 2000
    star 6
    I think that maybe with it being Tatoonie that Qui-Gon grabbed one from the ship to have on him, in case someone tried to poison them or many other things that he would want to check for in the blood. At least that's my thoughts.
  3. TheRedBlade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2007
    star 3
    Besides the reasons listed, I would think that the Jedi would take the recruitment/acquisition of Force-sensitives seriously. Left to grow up "in the wild," their powers could get them into all kinds of trouble, including falling to the dark side. Knowing that Jedi don't always stay in the Core, were post-natal blood tests are most common, something to check for midis would be a sensible bit of equipment for any Jedi who sets foot off of Coruscant.
  4. AnakinBrego Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    It's justified to kill thousands of people to save one, and killing all your supervisors and co workers because you didn't get that promotion, and they don't like you, because you think you are also entitled to your promotion! One moment you regret betraying the good guys and the next moment you want to join the bad guys, schizophrenia!

    You can get the girl by ogling her like a pervert, and questioning her judgement in front of her colleagues and confessing to her you killed a tribe of the women and children, she'll forgive you for that because you got angry!

    You can spend your whole life respectful all forms of life and being an advocate for the rights of all species and a promoter of galactic peace, then betray all that by forgiving a love interest that murders a tribe including its women and children. Then years later when your significant other kills again, innocent children (Younglings). you then finally get upset over that.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Nope, not logic flaws.

    1. Nowhere does ROTS send the message that Anakin's behavior in that film was "justified." Anakin himself may have thought so, but the fact that it wasn't so, was kind of the point. As far as "schizophrenia," yes, he was insane at that point, although I'd question whether "schizophrenia" would be his diagnosis. (It is possible though, with the paranoia and the visions.)

    2. I know it's always fun to hate on Anakin and pretend that the Tuskens were standing around minding their own business while Anakin went on a Tusken-attacking joyride simply because they were Tuskens, but that's not even close to what happened.

    I'd forgive him too. Or as Han Solo said in Tatooine Ghost, "He was a kid with a dead mother. I might have done the same thing." Who I don't forgive? The thugs who kidnapped his mother and spent a month torturing her to death. And given that there was no justice system on Tatooine, advocating the idea that Anakin should have simply walked out of the camp, is advocating the idea that the thugs should have gotten away scot-free with Shmi's torture and murder.

    I would find a very serious logic flaw if Padme, like many posters on these boards, completely ignored what happened to Shmi.

    And while maybe not everyone in the tribe participated, if Anakin had sought out those who did, that would have been a cold calculated murder as opposed to the blind "mow down everything in sight" rage that happened, and in some ways that would be more disturbing. Although given the lack of justice system on Tatooine, I would still forgive him for it and I suspect Padme would too--and it would make sense.

    3. You really saw no difference in Anakin's reaction in AOTC and ROTS? In ROTS he showed no remorse whatsoever for what he did, at least not in front of Padme (my icon is the only time, and she wasn't there). For that reason she knew he had changed, had "gone down a path that [she] couldn't follow."


    You don't have to like Anakin, but the points you made were not "logic flaws," particularly given that you left out the extremely important element regarding Shmi's fate. Which, again, is popular to ignore for some reason, there is an appalling lack of fan outrage over her fate.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Anakin may have been crazed, but I think his Force visions were legitimate.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I go back and forth on that, but given the fact that his visions of Shmi were legitimate, I would say the visions of Padme probably were as well. And I don't know that "schizophrenic" is the diagnosis I would give, more like paranoid and delusional. But I'm no psychiatrist.

    Regardless, Anakin's behavior is not a logic flaw as the PP asserted unless one is operating under the assumption that Anakin was playing with a full deck at that point. He wasn't.
  8. PrincessKenobi New Films Manager of DOOM

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    star 6
    I don't know. I think for Shimi yes completely legitimate visions. However with Padme they were not clear or defined. I think the future in that instance was cloudy and hinging on the choices he was going to make. And I think they were more his own fears showing themselves in his dreams. Sadly that dream lead to be more truth then anything. But he really should of reflected more and wondered what choices he or Padme were making that led to that outcome before jumping to a straight OMG! She is going to die, paranoia that he jumped into.

    Also who's to say that Sidious didn't bend the force to give him those visions. Because there is a great possibility that Sidious had Shimi kidnapped to test Anakin and see exactly how he would react if his Mother died at the hands of the Tuskans. The only way to get him there would be the vision. Same thing with Padme. How can I get him to come over to my side completely? Create a vision out of his greatest fear at the moment, thus not really a vision just someone using the force to plant ideas and fears inside someone's mind causing them to make irrational decisions.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And thus the dreams were legitimate visions of the future, which is always in motion.
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I also go back and forth about Sidious sending the visions. There was a good thread about whether Sidious sent the Padme vision. On the one hand, it's extremely convenient that Anakin has the vision and a few days later, Palpatine, who is not supposed to know about Anakin and Padme (thus Anakin would have told him nothing) is offering the power to stop death. On the other hand, as irrational as Anakin is anyway, the vision could have been at least partially an extreme manifestation of his fears. A 23-year-old learning that his wife is pregnant is going to have some fears anyway, even without the pressure of the war and the secret marriage. The fear of losing Padme was also worsened by the recent brutal murder of his mother. Palpatine could have simply sensed the fear and used it to his advantage. Either way, Palpatine had a direct hand in driving Anakin to insanity.
  11. PrincessKenobi New Films Manager of DOOM

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    star 6
    Well I believe Palpatine knew about the marriage. Honestly I think he had secret police and spies telling him everything his senators were up too. Just so he would always have blackmail or whatever he needed when he needed something done. A man who get's himself into that position with that amount of power doesn't do so without some leverage over people.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In the ROTS novel he says it's because he has connections in the Naboo civil clergy.
  13. skywalker_san Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2010
    star 1
    As for the Qui-Gon blood sampling device it's not that it is specifically a blood sampling device, but rather a Jedi Swiss Army Knife, and that's what they use to confirm one they sense has force sensitivity. That's how I've seen it so far. The only flaw that I've seen here that I think it's a honest-to-go flais Padmé knowing the Hangar one. Unless they intercepted a comunication or had knowledge of an hanger beforehand, then she shouldn't be able to know about it. But it's a pretty basic flaw and doesn't really hinder the movie... the answer to that probably lies within a deleted scene or on the script itself, but was left one for some or other reason. It happens all the time in movies an apparent plot hole lying in material left out.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    He did know, but Anakin didn't know that he knew--Anakin had not told him. Which is why Anakin acted so surprised when Palpatine said, "...and you can save your wife from certain death."

    Anakin would not have told him about the visions of Padme dying, unless he told him the way he told Yoda: "I'm having visions of a random person close to me in pain, suffering and death." So how did Palpatine know that Anakin would want the knowledge to save someone from death, unless he either sensed the vision or sent it directly to Anakin? Again, I don't know which it would be.
  15. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I would've preferred that PalpSidious found out about Anakin/Padme's marriage by reading Anakin's mind just like how Anakin read Luke's mind to find out that Leia is his daughter and Luke's sister.
  16. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6

    you mean like the fact she ignored the fact her friends mother was still a slave you mean?


    was Padme that poor she couldn't have offered a price watto (a local junk dealer, not a mafia boss) couldn't refuse?

  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm not following. Are you saying that because Padme didn't free Shmi from slavery, she was an uncompassionate person who would have certainly sympathized with Shmi's torturers and murderers as opposed to Shmi's heartbroken son who had arrived a few minutes too late to save her life?

    Your question has been the subject of a few threads and there is no direct answer in the EU, but there are a few indicators both there and in the films:

    1. Watto wasn't giving up Shmi for cheap. He didn't give up Anakin without a fight, and after he lost that fight, he Was. Not. Giving up Shmi. Cliegg didn't just march into Watto's shop and throw a few druggats on the counter, although he tried that. In the end Cliegg and Owen tricked Watto into selling Shmi, with Shmi's help, and a gift that Qui-Gon sent her before he was killed. (Source: Tatooine Ghost)

    2. Padme was obviously horrified that Anakin and Shmi were enslaved, but at the time she was trying to save her planet, whose citizens were being sent into camps (read: concentration camps) by the Neimoidians.

    3. There may have been complications with the ruler of Naboo interfering in Hutt-controlled territory. But that's just a guess on my part.

    What we are missing is indication of what was going on between TPM and AOTC. But I'd still say. It's quite a stretch to assume that Padme would sympathize with the Tuskens above Shmi or Anakin simply because Shmi was not freed by Padme's hand.
  18. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    1. hold on, there was NOTHING in the film to imply he wasn't giving up Shmi at all, all Watto said was that no pod was worth two slaves, , no I don't suppose she would have come cheap, but Padme was a former queen, then a senator, I doubt she couldn't offer a price that Watto wouldn't accept, he was after all a small tradesman. Watto could get younger stronger slaves, or even three Shmi's if he fancied her type that much.

    the line "I tried to free your mother, Watto wouldn't have it" sounds better than "I had a one sentence disscussion on whether your mother could be free, but he said no, so i left it at that" doesn't sound to good to a kid.


    2. I'm talking post TPM

    3. she didn't need to do it personally if that was the case,
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    1. We don't know how much money Padme had. You are assuming two things: one, that Watto was willing to sell Shmi, and for a price that Padme could pay, and two, that Padme was loaded. From the films and even from the books, we know neither how much money she had nor exactly how much Watto would have been willing to take for Shmi, assuming he was willing to sell her at all. And as I said, from Tatooine Ghost, he was not selling her and had to be tricked into it.

    That is strictly your interpretation, nothing more. I'm not sure what you expected Qui-Gon to do to free Shmi.

    I thought he sincerely wanted to free Shmi and would have done anything he could, but he was lucky to be able to free Anakin.

    And as I alluded to regarding the pod race and Watto not giving Anakin up without a fight, I don't think Padme could have offered money for Anakin and had Watto simply accept it either. Again, assuming she had it to offer, and that assumption is only based on her occupation. There is no indicator in the GFFA universe as to exactly what her income was, and how much was at her disposal vs. how much belonged to either her family or the Naboo government.

    2. As I said, there is a lack of EU material during that time period, but that does not mean it automatically follows that Padme didn't care. I'm still not following how this lack of explanation means that Padme didn't care about Shmi, or that it's within her character to sympathize with those who tortured her to death--and that is my biggest issue with your argument.

    3. If she didn't have the power to do it, she didn't have the power to delegate the job to someone else either.
  20. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    well, you have your opinion, i'll have mine, me typing a huge response won't make you change your mind, on the to me PT flaw



    3. If she didn't have the power to do it, she didn't have the power to delegate the job to someone else either.


    that wasn't my point, I was saying give the money to a handmaiden or security guard, to give watto money.
    MAKE IT A PRIVATE deal,

  21. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    About Padme freeing Shmi after TPM.
    1) After TPM she would still be Queen of Naboo for some further years. She had just been elected prior to TPM so she would have some time left.
    2) Anakin helped free Naboo and Anakin and Shmi helped Padme when she really needed it.
    So both Naboo and Padme owed Anakin and Shmi a debt of gratidude. And what better way to thank both og them by freeing Shni from slavery? Shmi is free and Anakin can rest easier knowing that his mother is no longer a slave.
    3) So it is not just Padme's own money that could be used, we are talking about the entire planet of Naboo here. Sure they had been invaded but they had two things which could easily be used to pay for Shmi, all the deactivated TF-droids and Water. Remember water is precious on Tatooine, Clieg makes a living being a moisture farmer and Naboo is literally swiming in the stuff. So not being able to afford it is not an issue.
    4) Ignoring that, Padme's family seems to be rich, that house by the water in AotC was apparently theirs. So they have a plush home, complete with servants, so again not having enough money does not wash as an excuse.
    5) Watto was greedy so given enough money he would sell Shmi, which he later did as AotC proves. Watto had lost everything on the race and would need money quickly so again he had every reason to take advantage of a good offer for Shmi.
    6) About Qui-Gons line, he tried to bet BOTH Anakin and Shmi for the pod but Watto would not have it. So he is probably refering to that bet.
    7) As Queen she has lots of people working for her so all she has to do is to tell one of her people to take care of it and that would be it. Total time spent, maybe five minutes.

    In closing, Padme had every reason to want to help Shmi, she had the means and it fits with how her character otherwise acts. So for her to apparently ignore Shmi for ten years is out of character for her. And based on what is said in AotC Padme apparently expected Shmi to still be a slave after all these years. If she had made some attempt to free her of had any contact with her she would have mentioned it. What the EU says about this does not matter to me, the movies should be able to stand on their own.

    Regards
    Nordom
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    But again, Nordom, are you saying that because Padme didn't free Shmi, it follows that she would sympathize with the humanoids who kidnapped her and tortured her to death, as opposed to sympathizing with Anakin? I disagree.
  23. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    Since Tatooine was out of republic territory, they used a different form of currency than the republic..
  24. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Three things,
    1) Not sympathizing with one side does not always mean you must sympathize with the other side. It is possible to not care either way.
    2) You said that it would be a serious logic flaw if Padme ignored what happened to Shmi at the hands of the Tuskens. The counter was brought up that for ten years Padme apparently ignored Shmi being a slave. If Padme is indeed compassionate and for the most part I think she is showed as that. Why would she then leave Shmi to rot for ten years and not lift a finger to help? Is this not a logic flaw?
    3) Mostly I was saying that Padme had both a motive and the means to free Shmi and it would have been a very easy thing for her to do. That she apparently did nothing does not reflect well on her as a character. Personally I view it as an oversight on Lucas part, he simply forgot or did not think that Padme would have the means/motive to free Shmi.
    And it would not change much. When Anakin talks about his mom, Padme tells him that she freed her years ago but Shmi wanted to stay on Tatooine and Padme has no current news on her. Then when they come to Tatooine they go to her home but it is empty, then they look up Watto and ask where Shmi is and we go from there. The same things happens but Padme does not look uncaring.

    Lastly, no I do not think Padme would side with the Tuskens or pretend they did nothing wrong. But I also find it odd that she so casually shrugs off what Anakin did. It seemed that she thought it was no big deal, nothing to worry about. She could still offer help and support but also tell him that what he did was wrong and that he needs help and he needs to tell the jedi what he has done. Leaving aside the killings, Anakin has just told her that he totally lost controll and could not stop himself untill everyone around him was dead. If this were to happen again, who knows how many would die. If Obi-Wan were to be shot in a fight, Anakin could go berzerk again. By staying silent and not prompting Anakin to seek help, she becomes an enabler, she tells Anakin what he wants to hear, not what he needs to hear.

    Regards
    Nordom

  25. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Simplicity itself, simply sell some TF-droids or water and you have Tatooine currency.

    Regards
    Nordom
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