PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    but we're not in real life,

    we're in a fairytale set in space, who says huuman trafficking even existsin the GFFA?

    she was a senator yes, but look at the mean old sith lord Palps

    he had time to train apprentices, talk to coughing droids, be a Sith, and oh also had time to sleep.


  2. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Human trafficking exists as a crime in SW, since slavery is outlawed in the Republic. Buying one slave's freedom isn't automatic, pure good. You're paying a slave master more money than he thinks keeping the slave is worth, in effect rewarding him for his deeds. He will probably take that money and buy another slave, or two, since you paid him extra. You're still supporting the system, which is why it's financing human trafficking.

    Padme is not Palpatine, who does what he wants since he's pure corruption and evil. Also, while Padme was called the queen, she was basically a glorified elected official with term limits. Naboo's wealth is not hers to spend as she pleases. Especially not for personal, morally ambiguous things in foreign worlds.
  3. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    good point about the first bit,


    but it doesn't have to be Nabooian money, as has been said, from her family's perspective she hasn't grown up in the slums has she?


    yyour point seems to have suggested that she didn't have time to do anything of her own accord, Palpatine, who had the exact same job (which was my point) found time to do things.



  4. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    People don't spend large sums of their own money just like that, even if they're wealthy. Slaves are valuable; we're told that two slaves (a middle aged woman and a young boy) are worth more than a top of the line race car. And Padme is still a public official. How does it look if you travel to a foreign country to finance human trafficking (a business that seems to be run by Hutt crime cartels), while your own people are suffering?

    Palpatine has time to do whatever he wants because he very literally doesn't play by the rules. He's completely driven by his quest for power. Padme, on the other hand, is written as someone completely bound by her devotion to government duty.
  5. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6

    already been covered, she didn't need to be publicly involved in anything, and I really don't believe that Padme is so clean she squeeks, no politician is.


    He's completely driven by his quest for power. Padme, on the other hand, is written as someone completely bound by her devotion to government duty

    and Palpatine isn't a hard worker who took his job seriously? Palpatine was so hard working he often went days without sleep (if you count EU that is) the point remains he had as much free time as any senator, regardless on who is good, bad, grey or whatever.


  6. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    So you're saying Padme should've been shady and covering things up. That she should've spent large sums of her own money on a slave, feeding a system run by organized crime. Something that I'm pretty sure is illegal in the Republic. This does not address the problem that I brought up originally, about how this would be a huge scandal. Padme does not have to be perfect to be smart enough to avoid something like that.

    Nor does it really even address my point that Padme simply may have been too busy with her responsibilities. You don't literally need to have every waking moment of your life taken up to be "too busy" to do things. People put things off. They forget. Shmi's plight is nothing compared to what thousands or even millions of people on Naboo have been through.

    Palpatine is not devoted to his office. His office is a means for him to accumulate more power. The man is a liar and a cheat through and through. He's apparently good enough at it that he controls many of his colleagues, directly or indirectly.
  7. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    no..i'm saying, quite simply


    with some money, give Watto a bit of money (or even exchange water for Tatooine currency) -and not even her if it would cause scandal-
    buy Shmi from Watto (who isn't a mob boss but a local junk dealer who'd had lost everything) free Shmi, then whola, no laws broken, no trafficking, a days business done and dusted.


    if freeing a slave was illegal then why didn't the Jedi get their butts handed to them for doing just that?

    Freeing a slave wouldn't make Padme seedy, thats ridiculous.


    her responsibilities that she may not have had if it wasn't for the fact the slaves son saved her Planet you mean? or saved her from a "very very dangerous" sandstorm?


    about Palpatine: he did EVERYTHING to get to the top, he was a bad guy yes, but didn't gloat in front of his mirror and say "not working hard at my responsibilities today, why? because I'm baaaad" did he? he worked doubly hard to get to the top, anything less then he wouldn't be the man he was.


  8. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    So now Padme is supposed to launder money on top of paying into the slave system? Really, the more you try to justify this, the worst it looks. Watto doesn't need to be a mob boss. Watto obviously commits acts which would be illegal in the Republic, under the umbrella of the Hutt mob bosses who openly control Tatooine. Do you see American millionaires going into the territory of Mexican drug cartels, or African militias, throwing money around with the naive goal of buying up slaves?

    That money stands a very good chance of paying for another slave, to replace the one that was just sold away. That slave owner just got a suggestion that it might be profitable to buy and sell more slaves. That's why it's illegal, and that's why people don't do it. Especially elected officials.

    Qui-Gon did it when he was alone and out of contact with his superiors. The movie explicitly portrays him as a maverick who bends the rules and is frowned upon by the Jedi Council. Even so, I don't believe he ever told anyone that he bought a slave. He just showed up with Anakin without going into the details. [EDIT: Technically, he won the slave in a bet, instead of buying him outright. Still, it was done on the down low.]

    Freeing a slave wouldn't make Padme seedy, thats ridiculous.


    I went over this in my last post. What you "have time for" is usually determined by what your priorities are, or what you want to actually do. Palpatine wants to attain power, so he has time to do the things necessary for that. Padme wants to do her actual job and serve the people of Naboo, so she's not going to run around laundering money, paying for slaves, or funneling cash into organized crime.
  9. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    actually re-reading I'll say this:

    your posts come across like she did not know Shmi at all, and you are looking at it from "this is the LAW, everything should be done under law of the Republic" on a planet where LAW doesn't exist.


    You say, if she did this, she'd be commiting thousands of offenses.

    When really Naboo OWE her FAMILY A LOT.

    You clearly don't seem to grasp this.


    Also Padme breaking the law is something she'd do if there was a cause.
  10. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    There is one thing I haven't seen mentioned,at least on the first several posts.

    Don't forget, Anikin skywalker, obiwan and palpatine are 3 of themost powerful force users ever. They could have been using the force to help assist the ship in maintaining some level of keeping the ship for totally nosediving between them or something of that sort.
  11. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Governments, and the law, do not operate on the principle that they "owe" someone a lot. An elected official with many people in worst condition than Shmi on her own planet has many reasons not to do that, not to mention that it could very well not be on her mind.
  12. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6

    not on a planet Far Far away in a Galaxy in the future they don't granted.



    Which is the logical flaw: it wasn't on her mind that a slave who offered her kindness was no way repaid,



  13. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    The reasons against Padme saving Shmi does not hold up.
    1) The law.
    First Qui-Gon freed Anakin and NOONE made ANY mention that he did anything illegal. If this was such a crime then somone would have said something, they didn't. Strike one.
    Second, Padme is shown as someone who WILL ignore laws or orders if she feels the cause is right.
    So even IF freeing Shmi was against some law, Padme would not care if she felt that Shmi's freedom was more important. Strike two.
    Lastly, why would FREEING a slave be against the law? There are Anti-slavery laws but why would those punish those that try to free slaves? Strik three.
    2) Padme was too busy.
    She is a QUEEN, she has people working for her. The way people talk you'd think she is out reparing houses by herself, that she makes her own dresses, builds her own ships. One of the advantages of having people work for you is the ability to tell them to do something for you. So all Padme has to do is tell one of her people to arrange for Shmi's freedom. Total time: perhaps five minutes.
    Also we are talking about a time of TEN years here, and in all this time Padme never had five minutes to spare? Sorry not buying it.
    3) Money.
    First, Naboo has two things that could be sold on Tatooine with no cost to them. Some of the TF-droids/tanks or water. So cost is not a problem. Besides the cost of ONE slave compared with the ecenomy of an entire planet is miniscule. It would like the President of the US not having enough money to buy a soft drink.
    Two, Padme's familiy seems rich, they have big plush house complete with servants, so again the no money thing does not wash. Also someone said that Padme would need to launder money to buy Shmi. Not so, travel to Tatooine with water/scrap droids and sell them LEGALLY in some shop. Voila, you have Tatooine money perfectly legal.
    4) The Naboo people would not want to or Padme could be smeared for doing this.
    Anakin helped save the planet of Naboo and his mother helped their queen when she was in trouble.
    So if Padme asked the people of Naboo if she could free this poor woman from slavery they would say NO? This makes the Naboo sound very petty, smallminded and ungratefull.
    Second, Padme frees a woman from slavery, a woman that she owed a debt of gratidude. She tries to end a person suffering from slavery and repays a personal debt and this would cause people to want to smear her over this? Sorry again, not buying this. Ay person trying this would most likely have it backfire. Also how would anyone in the senate know this?
    5) Watto would not sell for any price.
    First Watto is greedy so for the right price he will sell.
    Two, Watto had lost everything and needed money badly.
    Three, as AotC shows, Watto DID sell Shmi.
    Four, Watto would not know that Padme's people are from Naboo and he has no reason to connect Naboo with his loss of Anakin.
    In all, there is no logical reason that Watto would refuse to seel Shmi. Besides if Padme HAD tried and failed, she would have mentioned it. She did not, ergo she never even tried.
    6) Shmi was in no danger.
    She was a SLAVE on a planet run by crime lords. Watto did not treat her badly but suppose he sold her to a less nice master? As long as she is a slave, anything can happen to her.
    7) Padme would not care.
    Padme was outraged that slavery still existed and she knew Shmi personally. So why wouldn't she want to help her?

    Regards
    Nordom
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Nordom, you might have addressed this earlier, but what did you think of my idea that the Jedi might have told Padme that they would take care of Shmi? I found the notion plausible because Padme didn't have any contact with Anakin in the ten years between TPM and AOTC although he directly saved her planet. I can imagine that they might have told her it would be better for Anakin's development as a Jedi if Padme didn't get involved in his family and left it to them to handle. I don't see a reason she would have to doubt them in this instance. Just a thought.
  15. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I know this wasn't addressed to me but why would the Jedi tell a falsehood?

    isn't that lies, deciet creating mistrust?
  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Not necessarily. Note that I said that the Jedi could tell Padme that they would handle Shmi, not necessarily that they would free her. They might have watched out for her until she married Cliegg Lars and then, when she was stable and free, have left her alone. To be honest, I say this because I imagine that the Jedi would have been worried that Anakin contacting his mother would reinforce his attachment to her. They likewise wouldn't want Shmi to reach out to him. So, I can see them keeping a watch over her until she got married and it became clear that she wasn't going to leave Tatooine. I know it seems deceptive, but the Jedi are willing to bend the truth to suit their needs, such as Qui-Gon's bluff with Anakin. Or consider when Obi-Wan plays along with the Kaminoans when he finds the clone army. He even tells them "that's why I'm here" although it's a blatant lie -- he had no idea what to expect (certainly not an army). The way I see, the Jedi are willing to stretch the truth if they see it as for the greater good.
  17. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    not a bad theory, but I would think that would have been covered somewhat in the film.


    Do you mean watching her in person (sending a jedi there) or through the force?
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Maybe through the Force. Or they might have paid a contact on Tatooine to keep an eye on her situation until she married. It isn't covered in the films, but I don't think it needs to be necessarily (although it would have been nice). If Padme believes the Jedi are taking care of it, though, and has been asked to step aside, I can see why she would comply, especially if she's told it's to help Anakin in his Jedi training.
  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    That is a very reasonable theory and one I wish were true - and if so, I wish it had been at least alluded to in the films.
  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I too wish Shmi's situation had been expounded upon in AOTC; I found her to be a very sympathetic character and would have liked to know more about her. From what I can tell, though, the film seems to play out a lot from Anakin's point of view, which might be why Shmi's fate is left open. I like my theory, too, because it would support Obi-Wan's position in AOTC that "dreams pass in time." If he'd been told that Shmi was no longer a slave and happily married, I can see why he would reassure Anakin that it's just dreams and that they would eventually disappear.

    Of course, there's no evidence to support my idea, but I just thought it'd been fun to try to explain it. I don't believe that just because something isn't addressed in the film itself that it is a flaw in logic. Sometimes things are simply left ambiguous.
  21. JediofJade Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Very interesting arguments here, but I have to object to some of these "logic flaws" on the basis that real-life human behavior rarely follows "logic."

    1)Anakin slaughters the Tusken Raiders. Padme is horrified, yet does little to nothing to try to help Anakin deal with the consequences of his actions.

    This was likened to a family trying to help an alcoholic. I don't know how many of you can claim experience with this exact situation, but I can, and I can tell you that "logic" is practically a fantasy when it's your loved one destroying him/herself and everyone else in their life. You know what's right; you know what you should do; but all those 'shoulds' and 'musts' become unreachable goals when you're mired in so many conflicting emotions. I can easily imagine Padme likewise dealing with such an array of emotions (one of which is always, always denial, plus a healthy smattering of "I can fix it if I just love this person hard enough"), and then throw a galactic war into the mix...it's no wonder to me that Padme didn't pursue the "right thing" - condemning Anakain's actions/trying to get him help - any further.


    2)Padme makes no effort to free Shmi.

    Again, the logical - in this case, as many would agree, the right and moral - thing to do is pushed to the wayside, because we, as humans, tend to not do the things we're supposed to, even if it's something we want to accomplish. You forget about it, then you remember it, you tell yourself, "I'll get on this", and then something else comes up, and then you rationalize: 'Someone else will take care of this. It's actually not even necessary for me to do this. This problem will take care of itself. Everything will work out eventually.' These don't even have to be conscious arguments - they often aren't.

    Also, I came away from TPM with the impression that Padme was a kind of isolationist ruler - likely a reflection of her society considering the cold relationship between the Gungans and the Naboo. I thought her view of her obligations as ruler were centered quite entirely on her people, that she was thinking, "My world is being destroyed; the rest of the galaxy can go deal with their problems on their own." Also, were we not to infer from her foray into Tatooine that her knowledge of the rest of the galaxy was somewhat limited? Her dealings with Palpatine express this point as well - "You deal with this, Senator. Just get my people the aid they need. I don't belong here, intergalatic politics are no concern of mine. I'm going back to Naboo." And judging by Palpatine's coaching of her during her speech before the Senate, she seemed very inexperienced with how the galaxy operated on a political level.

    Also, she was young. Fourteen, right? I think it's unaccountably harsh to expect her to free Shmi, a woman she knew for all of a few days (if that?), when she had so much going on, on top of being, you know...a teenage human. You could say that as she matured, she should have thought back on Shmi, wondered what happened. But then what I mentioned in the first paragraph applies - you find excuses. Your emotional attachment to certain events - the attachment that would move you to act - fades with time.

    Tl;dr - these are not flaws of logic. They are understandable and common aspects of human behavior.



    As for the 'hard science' flaws...I am a firm believer in the suspension of disbelief. I do expect more logic from written stories, because you have more time to sort through the details. But in movies, especially action/adventure movies, the laws of physics and space travel - oooh! Pretty fireballs!! *distracted*

    And then I am content to ignore the logistical fallacies that led up to those pretty fireballs.




  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I didn't really buy the comparison to the family trying to help an alcoholic when it was presented earlier. Alcoholism involves habitual and ongoing destructive behavior. Anakin had never behaved that way before, and Padme really had no reason to anticipate that he would behave that way again, given that the trauma he just experienced--his mother dying in his arms after being slowly tortured to death--had no chance of happening again, and any similar event was unlikely. (Remember, they weren't at war yet.)

    I agree that her own emotions came into play, to a point. She knew Anakin had been having nightmares, and that he had just seen his worst one come true before his eyes, so she was sad for him and horrified at what happened to Shmi. But I don't think she was thinking, "He's messed up, but I can fix him if I love him enough." She had set out to comfort him, and that's what she did. Any other admonitions to talk to Obi-Wan, etc., would have come later. (As far as the Council, from snippets of conversations in TPM and AOTC, I don't think Padme's opinion of them was all that high.) Then they got distracted by Geonosis and the war starting. It was mentioned that "they could have talked on the way to Geonosis." That would have been appallingly bad timing, given that neither of them were sure that Obi-Wan was alive, and rescuing him was their only focus at that moment. Even if Padme had thought to discuss the situation with Anakin, he would not have given it more than a modicum of his attention.

    Overall I think Padme was more concerned with Anakin's grief for his mother, and his slipping into guilt and depression, than she was with the idea that he might go bats again if something happened to Obi-Wan or herself. As far as "condemning" him--that would not have helped Anakin, it would have just pissed him off.

    This is where the alcoholism analogy works: in order for Anakin to get help, he had to believe that he needed it (and I think on some level he did) and he had to have a trusted person to turn to for help. I think he might have used Palpatine as that trusted person.
  23. JediofJade Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, I actually didn't really agree with the alcoholic analogy, but felt the need to refute it; hence all my lines of reasoning were within the context of that argument.

    Padme had every reason to believe it was a one-time thing - as has been mentioned, how often could she expect Anakin to be in a situation that stressful and emotionally taxing?

    As far as "condemning" him--that would not have helped Anakin, it would have just pissed him off.

    I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I'll just say again that I was stating what some people have said WRT to this situation, in an effort to point out the flaws of such arguments. In general, I think you and I are pretty much in agreement as far as this "logic fail" goes, anakinfan.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    No, not directed at you. The "It's illogical that she didn't condemn him harshly in the Lars garage" argument has been presented ad nauseum; I was addressing that, and the fact that condemning him harshly would be counterproductive, and I think Padme knew as much.
  25. JediofJade Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    I will submit again that a lot of these character action "fails" do not present situations capable of logical analysis. It's human behavior, which is entirely subjective, as opposed to elements of the hard sciences and such - the landing strip on Coruscant, movie sequences that defy the known laws of physics, etc.

    I think picking apart the actions of the characters themselves can be a worthwhile pursuit, but most of the situations mentioned don't really belong in this thread. Or have we exhausted all the relevant flaws in the PT, so that we're forced to argue over the ethical nature of Padme's behavior?
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