PT Logic Flaws in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The two of you above show that logic flaws are often "flaws" of human behavior (though I believed that before you two presented it).

    One might also ask why YOU or HIM or THEY don't (real world analogy__human trafficking, mass starvation, genocide - unfortunately there's too many real world horrors to list) step in and fix those problems.

    Why do we still have starving humans? People without shelter after catastrophes? Slavery? Is it a logic flaw that the US President, or British PM, or Mayor of Baltimore doesn't step over political boundaries to help "them"?

    Sure, that is not a perfect parallel and I realize that, the "logic flaw" discussed here is why one woman (Padme) does not free one woman (Shmi), but I think there's a certain parallelism one can draw. If not, put Jedi in place of Shmi as many have done, and parallel the Jedi to the FBI in the same scenario rather than the political offices I used.


    ...in order for Anakin to get help, he had to believe that he needed it (and I think on some level he did) and he had to have a trusted person to turn to for help. I think he might have used Palpatine as that trusted person.


    Truer words were never spoken.
  2. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Certainly they are flaws of human behavior. But what's the point in arguing about them? As is often the case when you're talking about justifying or condemning a person's actions, there is no one right side. There a multitude of reasons why someone did or did not do this or that. Hence, I don't really see them as being flaws of logic. There's nothing really concrete to latch onto as the basis for arguing either side.

  3. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Padme was a helpless spectator to what Qui-Gon was doing on Tatooine. Remember, she was a fourteen year old girl. She didn't want to work through Anakin at all, repeatedly stating "The Queen would not approve." Qui-Gon did what he did despite her opposition.

    On the contrary, I think that Padme's defining trait is her total devotion to her duty and office. In TPM, she feels even more contstrained than later on because of her youth and inexperience. Throughout the movie, she was someone who was barely able to handle her responsibilities. She develops into a stronger person, but I wouldn't say that she ignored the law. She went back to her home planet and defended it, as is her right. In AOTC, she demonstrates an independent streak, but she still works within the system.

    There's actually a term for buying a slave's freedom: Slavery redemption. Assuming that the well-intentioned purchase of a a human being doesn't get you in trouble, the practice is recognized as a faulty one and is frowned upon by many governments and organizations in real life.

    On the contrary, I think that the involvement of other people would make it harder. Padme is a teenager, I think it goes without saying that she has to consult advisors and other people throughout the government. All one of them has to do is say that it's not a good idea, or even illegal to spend government money on something like this.

    How many people even know what Anakin did? How are you going to prove that this woman is his mother? It's something that will need explanation. Because what it also could look like is Padme funneling money into shady people or organized crime. Are there assurances that Watto won't buy another slave? Or that the money won't see its way into the Hutts' hands?

    Has anyone in real life clamored for each and every Libyan, Iraqi, or Afghan ally of America's to be well paid, taken care of, and given a new life? No. People don't go around assuming responsibility for everyone they come across.

    [quote-Nordom7) Padme would not care.
    Padme was outraged that slavery still existed and she knew Shmi personally. So why wouldn't she want to help her?[/quote]

    Padme wasn't "outraged," she was just surprised because she had no concept of such a thing still going on. She made no promise or even mention of freeing Shmi, and she didn't even want Anakin's help to begin with. As I said before, Padme was fourteen at the time. She's not going to be thinking about everything like that; she can barely take care of her own business.

    I don't even see how this needs to be a huge issue to her. She saved Naboo, and she had plenty of problems there and with the Trade Federation to deal with. The Jedi have promised to take care of Anakin.
  4. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    Or how about, how could a 10 year old boy build the fastest podracer in the galaxy? I know he had a high midichlorine count but c'mon...10 years old??? lol He's a genius.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  6. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5

    Probably about as likely as a teenage boy being able to write down from memory Allegri's entire Miserere performance after just one listen *coughMozartcough*.
  7. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    [face_laugh]
  8. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    I was not talking just about Padme, Anakin?s slave background or how he was freed was hardly a secret and yet neither the senate nor the JC made the slightest mutter of protest or say anything that Qui-Gon broke the law. So in TPM ONE slave was freed and it caused not ONE word of objection.
    So it becomes illogical and senseless to argue that the freeing of ONE other slave would cause such a huge ruckus. The senate and the JC did not care that Anakin was freed from slavery so if Shmi was likewise freed they would still not care, I doubt that the senate would even be aware of it.

    Really? In TPM she rejects the notion that the courts will look into the Naboo situation, ?The courts take even longer to decide.? is what she said. She tries to work within the system but when the system fails her she takes matters into her own hands. So if she felt that Shmi should be freed and IF the system was trying to stop her, she would ignore it. And that is assuming that the system would even try to interfere.

    You seem to describe Padme as some ineffective ruler that can?t do anything without having three committee meetings and a couple of polls first. Sorry but the films do not agree with this interpretation. Take TPM, on Tatooine she leaves her personal guards and advisors and goes alone with Qui-Gon into the city. A city on a planet ran by criminals. Is this very safe for her? Not really.
    Would her security people and advisors approve of this? I rather doubt it. But she did it anyway and they had to comply because she is their boss. Later in TPM, when it becomes clear to her that the senate won?t be of any help, she decides to go back to Naboo and fight the TF by herself. Is this very safe? No. Would her advisors and security people approve? I very much doubt it but again she did it and they had to follow orders. The attack plan seems to have been hers and she even leads the attack. Again very risky but she got her will though. So in all, if Padme wants something her advisors have little chance of changing her mind.
    In AotC her head of security makes some comments indicating that she can and often do takes risk.
    She takes it upon herself to go and rescue Obi-Wan and Anakin just follows along.

    In all Padme is shown as someone that can get things done and can often do things against the advice of those around her. So IF she wanted to free Shmi I very much doubt that the bureaucrats around her would get her to change her mind.

    Also about Padme, at the end of TPM she led the fight against the TF and freed her planet. She is their hero and in AotC it is said that she was so popular that the Naboo wanted to change the law so she could be elected again. Given her immense popularity, IF Padme gave an order to free Shmi, why would those around her start to argue against her or try to stop her?


  9. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    First, Anakin isn't a normal person. Hes a Jedi, and an extremely powerful Jedi at that. He has to act and behave to a higher standard. Giving into those feelings of fear and hate that would have driven Han to do the samething are extremely dangerous emotions for a Jedi, which is the reason they take children away from their parents before those bonds are formed and why they spend years taking control of their emotions. Anakin is susposed to be above those emotions, and hes not.

    Second, even with "normal people", what they did made me mad isn't really a good or excusable reason to kill people.

    Third, Anakin didn't kill the Tuskins that hurt his mother. He killed all of them, including the children. He became just as much of a monster as the Tuskins were. He didn't punish those guilty of a crime, he punished them AND their entire tribe.
  10. OBI-GYN_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 3
    Funny, people should know better but they're doing in this life every day & don't even realize it when they serve themselves & ignore God, but that's been going on since The Fall.

    On topic, the greatest logic flaw is the fact that air & gravity are the same on every single planet...

    The fact is, if you want, you can tear every movie ever made to shreds that I've seen except one: The One That Got Away: It was EXACT to the true story. exact ~ the only time I've ever seen that.

  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    sluggo: I disagree that Anakin should be held to a higher standard because he's a Jedi. I also disagree about the Jedi being "above" certain emotions, as if having emotions were a bad thing. Behavior can be bad; emotions never are.

    Beyond that, you and I have discussed this topic before, I see no need for us both to repeat points already made when I doubt that either of us have changed our minds.
  12. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Not true. All the "dark" emotions (anger, hate, fear) must be avoided because they can lead to the dark side. So at the very least they must be very cautious if they start feeling any of that stuff.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Again I disagree. All humans feel "dark emotions" at some point. Every single person on this board has felt anger and fear at some point in their lives, and I think most people have probably felt hatred, although I consider that more of an action than an emotion.

    The "being led to the Dark Side"--or should I say succumbing to it--is a behavior, a choice.

    Every last one of the Jedi, even Mace friggin' Windu, felt the "dark emotions" you described. Most of them didn't turn to the Dark Side, whereas Anakin, Dooku and 19 others did, for reasons too numerous to discuss here. And maybe being emotionless droids would have saved them from Dark Side temptation but I think we'd all agree that droids would make lousy Jedi. Otherwise the Order would have manufactured droids instead of seeking out Force-sensitive sentients in the first place.
  14. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    1983: Good evening. :)

    I agree with your points about dark emotions. That's probably the biggest flaw I have with the Jedi in general--this all consuming belief that emotions are wrong. It's *impossible* for a sentient being to function without them. If they're so blasted wrong why do the zillions of beings in GFFA have them to begin with? Well, actually, it's cause the various creators have them as do us fans but just sayin'.

    If attachment and emotion was so awful wrong why do Jedi have Master/Padawan bonds and feel the need to defend or protect the galaxy? It seems to me that the Jedi break their own rules all the time because of who they *inherently* are. The dark emotions can lead to bad acts, but to feel them is simply to be sentient. Even Yoda felt sorrow and disappointment, and doubt yet no one calls Grand Master Frog out.

    I think some of us (including me) had a false impression that Anakin was supposedly a gallant knight with no flaws in the beginning because he was the Chosen One. Instead, he's very flawed, very human and still redeemable. I think that's fantastic. I just wish more people held this same hope of redemption/human empathizing for other conflicted characters as well.

    The Code itself which is never expressly said on film is what bothers me. The Jedi act as though it's law when in actuality, all in can be in practice is an aspiration. It also seems to me that the Jedi would wipe themselves out before long because they don't form familial bonds/units, which of itself seems very unnatural considering how especially Humans are.
  15. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    FWIW, we have no idea if the other eighteen turned to the Dark Side. But, you're right. Obi-Wan describes becoming a Jedi Knight in the ROTJ as 'confronting and then moving beyond the Dark Side'-having to master your emotions, and not ignoring them completely, is what is implied there.
  16. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Can anyone quote or point to anything definitive that the Jedi deny emotion? (I would prefer to leave most EU out of this, but because I anticipate at least one answer: KM's Wild Space had Yoda disapproving of any positive or negative emotion - I would say I found YOda very out of character in that first book - much better in the 2 sequels).

    I'm open to persuasive arguments, but I've always felt that it's been shown that Jedi tend to "button up their emotions" around non-Jedi and try not to ACT on emotions - but still feel them and do not feel particularly guilty about them unless they were "dark."

    As for the positive emotions - well, everything has a negative side taken far enough - I'll have to try to dig up the GL quote that "no attachments" did NOT equal lack of caring/fondness.

    I was persuaded of this years ago by many folks on this very board who pointed out GL was going for a more "eastern" definition vs. what the majority of us associate with the word "attachment."

    I try to look beyond my own world view and find the inherent in-universe view. Others may as well - I'd like to hear how those of you came to these conclusions.
  17. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    First problem: not all Jedi are humans. You cannot begin to suddenly begin assuming you know how other species represented in the Jedi Council would be able to deal or not deal with emotions - or even if they have emotions in any sense that would be comparable to humans.

    Well, there's a difference between feeling negative emotions and acting on them. However, my understanding from the SW movies is that the Jedi use concentration and mind power to keep negative emotions from surfacing at all, if they belong to a species likely to have such emotions. Remember, you can't assume that a human who had Jedi powers would be in any way comparable to humans IRL.

    There's really no way to know how often, if at all, most of the Jedi even came close to the "dark emotions". Granted, you do see Mace getting to a pretty dark place in ROTS. But there's no way to really know (at least from the movies alone) whether he had ever before even come close to such emotions. Maybe it was the first event in his life that actually tested him to that extent.
  18. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Valairy_Scot: I was going on personal perception of the films. But, personal perception is a major factor of all perceived 'flaws' or 'strengths' found in a work.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Sentients in the GFFA are in most ways comparable to humans IRL. The differences I have seen are minor, such as physical features or food choices.

    You are again operating from the assumption that emotions themselves are somehow inherently bad. I do not believe this, and if I'm supposed to believe that the Jedi deliberately suppress all emotion, my opinion of them will be pretty low.

    Emotions are, and should be, part of being alive. As far as the difference between humans and nonhumans, my cats feel sadness, anger and fear.

    I'll pose the question I considered posing in my last post: if the Jedi believe that emotions are bad, why did they bother training sentients at all? Wouldn't building droids have been easier? Or maybe hiring the Kaminoans to genetically modify particular species to be emotionless?

    Yes, that's a serious question, not rhetorical at all. If emotions are considered so horrible, it would make more sense for the Jedi to choose beings with no emotions at all rather than beings who had to be trained to suppress emotions.

    Why not? In the films they all seemed pretty human, the only difference being their increased sensitivity to the Force.

    If you read the EU I can add many more to that. Shatterpoint is full of such moments.
  20. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Fair enough - perception is internal,no debate there. I'd love to start a civil thread where we discuss specific points (like, did Obi-Wan smirk when Anakin was denied training - this is not the thread to go into that, but what expression *I* saw was not a smirk) and discuss why/how we come to different conclusions on what we saw.

    Anakinfan: you know I love to discuss things with you because I think our views overlap like 75% making the other 25% both fun and invigorating to discuss - if you ever get to my neck of the country we MUST meet and have a good ol' SW discussion.

    Ahem.

    "I'll pose the question I considered posing in my last post: if the Jedi believe that emotions are bad, why did they bother training sentients at all? Wouldn't building droids have been easier? Or maybe hiring the Kaminoans to genetically modify particular species to be emotionless?"

    Would you care to elaborate on why you hold the view that the Jedi do suppress all emotion, or is it perception and not so easily communicated to someone like me who geniunely wants to know what you consider evidence for your viewpoint? (See my post above.)
  21. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    That may be true from what we've seen in the films. Still we cannot assume that there couldn't be stuff that is very different in a galaxy as diverse as GFFA.

    Sorry, but that is simply not true. I am trying to limit myself to addressing the emotions that lead to the dark side. I've never seen anything that I can remember that would suggest Jedi aren't allowed to feel happiness, or other positive emotions. Perhaps I could even go along with the Jedi trying to simply limit the *excess* of emotion - anything that could cloud their judgment.

    Yes, but it is enough of a significant difference that we can't really make a direct comparison between humans IRL and a very force-sensitive human in GFFA. Because they are deliberately shown as being different in a major way.

    In this discussion I am limiting myself strictly to the movies, no EU. I've very little interest in EU stuff because there's been stuff in the past that was later contradicted by the actual movies.
  22. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Val: I'd be game for that. :) That's the kind of thing I've been thirsting for. However, a lot of my answers will be based on how I perceive things...I don't think everything requires nor has a *definitive* answer. Much of which I won't know anyway because I've basically stopped following EU in 2007. That's why I like discussing things and listening. But, it can get disheartening when someone says 'you're wrong' simply because perceptions vary. I don't want to fight. I want to share and learn. :)
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think they do, but my perception of a couple of prior posts made by others indicates that the posters believe that emotion itself is bad for a Jedi. Hence my question--if the Jedi believe that none of their order should have emotions or emotions are "bad," why bother training sentients at all? Droids are easy--the only one who ever shows emotion is 3PO, and Anakin built him, so there's that.

    I think all the Jedi feel the normal range of human (OK, sentient) emotions, and due to either training, personality or a combination of the two (I vote the latter), they are able to handle those emotions well. Anakin's problem wasn't that he felt everything--both positive and negative--deeply, it's that no one was able to teach him (in a way that he could understand) how to channel those emotions in a positive way.

    I used Mace as an example, I'll use Obi-Wan as another one. He had a reserved personality but no one can tell me that the man did not feel everything, and just as deeply as an outwardly emotional person like Anakin did.

    The one exception to the rule of Jedi and normal emotions might be Yoda, but if I live to be 900 years old, I doubt anything will scare me or piss me off anymore either.

    (And yes, next time I'm visiting my favorite US city, we must get coffee somewhere.)
  24. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    No, not emotion itself. At least, I don't believe that. But they are clearly concerned with negative emotions (which lead to the dark side) and too much attachment to significant others, parents, etc. (because losing them or seeing them hurt can lead to the negative emotions, sometimes even more strongly).
  25. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    Sure all humans feel them, but Jedi, are taught too and have to be in total control of their emotions, espically those dark ones. If they aren't......well we saw what can happen. No one is saying Jedi have to be emotional droids, in fact Anakin says they are encouraged to love. But they HAVE to be in control of those emotions, which Anakin clearly isn't. And to limit the danger/risk that Jedi face, they cut ties which often lead to those negative emotions.

    You can disagree all you want but its true. A Jedi who can't hold himself/herself to a higher standard and who can't control their emotions is dangerous. We get it straight from Yoda in TPM. Beyond that Filino (sp) has said on the force cast that they don't really see the CloneWars Micro Series as canon or "word for word" how it happened and one reason is that scene were all the Jedi are scared of Gerivous, and Lucas has made it clear in making the TCW that Jedi are taught how to control their emotions and wouldn't give into or be crippled by fear the way those Jedi are.
Moderators: Bazinga'd