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logic from the next senator of Ill.

Discussion in 'Big Brother 3: The Mods Strike Back' started by Darth-Seldon, Oct 18, 2004.

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  1. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    "Yet even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there?s not a liberal America and a conservative America?there?s the United States of America. There?s not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there?s the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I?ve got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don?t like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and have gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America."

    -Barack Obama
    DNC Boston 2004



     
  2. Qui Gon Jim23

    Qui Gon Jim23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    I see the next senator from Ill. part, but I'm missing the logic part.
     
  3. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    I don't know, I guess you have to know logic to recognize it. :)
     
  4. PrincessKenobi

    PrincessKenobi New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Truth is he speaks well. I remember when he gave that speech at the DNC and I don't know a person watching it who didn't have the same exact thought about him. That he could quite possible be the first Black President.

    ~PK~
     
  5. Qui Gon Jim23

    Qui Gon Jim23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    I'll believe that when I see it. From what I've seen, he's simply a black version of Slick Willie. He knows all the words to say, but I don't trust him.
     
  6. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2001

    I love how Obama and Kerry throw their religous beliefs around in an effort to pander to the thinning number of Christian Democrats. It's a statement of faith that should be commended when they do it, but Bush is trying to impose a Talibanesque theocracy on the nation when he mentions a personal belief and faith in God. Bush isn't the one pandering in churches and misquoting Scripture. But I guess it's ok when Democrats campaign on religion because we know they don't really mean it, right?

    Democrats complain that Bush's faith influences his decisions, when Kerry drags out his Catholocism at every chance. Catholics are much more dogmatic than whatever denomination Bush belongs to, and I guarantee not one of you (with the exception of Jim, since he occasionally reads the newspaper) can tell me what denomination Bush is without doing an exhaustive Google search. But Bush is the religious zealot, right? How do you justify support for Kerry or Obama when they have been more open about their religion than Bush?

    AYBABTU

     
  7. carmenite42

    carmenite42 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Kerry has said that while his religion is important to him, it does not affect him in making decisions about policy. This can be evidenced by the fact that he is pro-choice (not to be confused with pro-abortion or anti-life).
     
  8. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

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    Mar 8, 2001

    I get it now. It's ok to have a meaningless faith that is only used when pandering, but not in applying to one's life and decisions.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    AYBABTU

     
  9. carmenite42

    carmenite42 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 21, 2003
    I'd say it's more that it's okay to have faith when making decidions for your life, but when you're making decisions for a couple of hundred million people, it's innapropriate to push that faith on others.
     
  10. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2001

    How has Bush pushed that faith on anyone else?

    AYBABTU

     
  11. carmenite42

    carmenite42 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 21, 2003
    I used poor wording - not to push the faith, but to push the beliefs of that faith.
     
  12. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

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    Mar 8, 2001

    What are Bush's beliefs that he is trying to impose on the rest of us?

    AYBABTU

     
  13. carmenite42

    carmenite42 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 21, 2003
    Well, for one, he's trying to pass an amendment that will define marriage the same way his religion does.

    The other main issue I can think of is the belief that abortion is wrong.
     
  14. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2001

    What policies has he affected with his beliefs on abortion? What changes have been made to Roe v Wade because Bush is a Christian?

    And as I have explained in other threads, his support for a marriage amendment is not out of religion but out of checks and balances. He merely supports the constitutional authority of states and the soveriegnty of the people to make laws. The amendment would only uphold states' definition of marriage as chosen by the People, negating courts' efforts to legislate from the bench. That it happens to in some way coincide with his religious belief on the matter has nothing to do with it.

    AYBABTU

     
  15. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    It makes perfect since. You govern for the good of the people. You decide what is best for them not what is best to follow your faith.

    I have to agree with Kerry a lot with that comment. If Bush had said it, I would still agree 100%.


    "From what I've seen, he's simply a black version of Slick Willie. He knows all the words to say, but I don't trust him. "

    Well you don't have any proof for this feeling.

    -Seldon
     
  16. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2001

    Ok, I'll try this again.

    Where has Bush let his faith determine policy rather than the nebulous "what is good for the people" that you imagine that Kerry said?

    "Well you don't have any proof for this feeling."

    What the hell?? How can one be expected to prove a gut-feeling about someone that is clearly an opinion? How would he "prove" that Obama is similar to Clinton?

    I'm pedantic, but you go to an extreme to avoid issues.

    AYBABTU

     
  17. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    I go extremes to avoid an issue. Wow. I'm not going to get into that but I find is so ironic.

    Anyway we are in a discussion and Jim is bashing Obama because of a feeling. If I had a similar feeling about Bush, you would both demand proof.

    I never said Bush forces his religion on others. I have never said it. I did say that I agreed with Kerry's comment about not forcing his beliefs onto the nation. Never was Bush mentioned in a negative way in relation to faith in my posts.

    -Seldon
     
  18. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2001

    You were very clearly making a contrast between Bush and Kerry by pointing out that Kerry has said he will govern according to "what is best" rather than according to his faith. By calling it out as a reason to support Kerry, is the implication not that Bush believes otherwise?

    And speaking of logic, please define "logic" as it is expressed by Obama's remarks above. It strikes me as rhetoric much more than logic*.

    *Note that this may require checking the definition of "logic"

    AYBABTU

     
  19. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    First off Rhett, I said one thing I agree with is that Kerry said it. I never said Bush did or did not do it, all I said was that he did not say it.
    No matter who says it, I agree with it.

    What is logical is a lot of people look at us during this time in an election year as blue states and red states. We are one nation.

    -Seldon
     
  20. Darth_AYBABTU

    Darth_AYBABTU Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2001

    Logical reasoning is defined by some sort of deduction. It would have been logical for him to cite that many people view the nation in terms of red states and blue states because the nation is polarized by Iraq, gay marriage, war on terror, economy, etc. What he said above is rhetoric, not logic.

    AYBABTU

     
  21. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    If logic is implied then it is logical. You understood the logic behind it as you stated in your previous post. It has logic in it.

    -Seldon
     
  22. PrincessKenobi

    PrincessKenobi New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Truth is whatever one person believes is a part of who they are. It makes up their very being. And they're going to use that to make their descions. If its Kerry or its Bush. You can't tell me that Kerry won't make choices based on his teachings in the Church. The same you can't tell me Bush doesn't make choices based on his religion. And if either of them claim they don't then they're lying.

    And on the whole Gay thing, at this point I believe the admendant is basiclly forcing the states to deal with the issue and not the Federal because it is a state issue. Because I could get married in Alaska and the state of Indiana does not have to recongnize it if they want. The Federal gov has no say in that.

    ~PK~
     
  23. carmenite42

    carmenite42 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Because I could get married in Alaska and the state of Indiana does not have to recongnize it if they want.

    The thing is, the [link=http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleiv.html]full faith and credit clause[/link] of the constitution says Indiana does. However, the DOMA says it doesn't.
     
  24. PrincessKenobi

    PrincessKenobi New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Well I personally would rather the states deal with it then the Federal. The Federal really shouldn't have anything to do with marriage.

    ~PK~
     
  25. carmenite42

    carmenite42 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    It's not the call of the federal government, though - it's stated by the constitution. The constitution says that states need to recognize "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state."
     
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