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Oceania LOL! Apparently, "Free" trade > culture

Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by Ender Sai, Nov 4, 2003.

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  1. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    It is quite abhorrent that many sectors of our agricultural industry have been literally left out in the cold by this agreement, which hardly qualifies as a FTA...but hey, it is at least a Free'er Trade Agreement, and will in the end still be of ample benefit to our economy. Johnny H has hit a home run with this one, even if one or two sugar cane farmers were knocked unconscious by the ball in the crowd. ;)
  2. The Gatherer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 6
    18 years is a LONG time...
  3. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Oh dear.

    So we have more people who don't exactly know what Free Trade is, and I'm assuming Globalisation y default?

    A Free Trade agreement is one where the products being exchanged are derived of any government taxation - like tariffs?

    So, really, it is an FTA agreement where you just don't agree with the outcome, right? ;)

    E_S
  4. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Sure, an FTA is good if it IS an FTA. This is clearly not.

    BTW free trade is not always a good thing. I know, the company I used to work for went out of business because of dirt cheap imports from the USA being dumped into the Australian marjet. The imports were old product in the US, meaning they could afford to dump them at hugely reduced prices. We got screwed.
  5. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    ^That phenomenon is called Creative Destruction, Uruk-Hai. [face_devil]

    The only alternative to free trade is using Governmental force to prop up markets that don't belong there in the first place. And that is cheating, pure and simple.
  6. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Right. Globalisation is your friend.

    Great, let's kill off our manufacturing industry - it's almost dead anyway - and we can all work at Maccas flipping burgers for each other.
  7. The Gatherer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 6
    Then why not on the other hand, support isolationism?! ;)
  8. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    The US economy has the power to crush ours. We can only live with a huge trade defecit for so long.
  9. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    The US economy has the power to crush ours. We can only live with a huge trade defecit for so long.

    And how exactly will the US economy 'crush' our economy?
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    It's the most powerful economy in the world. Heck, the state of Cali is bigger than our national economy. What's the likely concern is that in some markets, the US can afford to dump cheap goods because they more than recover their costs at home.

    E_S
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Ah, that's the term I wanted; it's an economy of scale relationship Nyder.

    E_S
  12. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Nyder, I used to work for Netcom. We built modems in Australia. Banksia was our main local competitor, they built modems in Australia too.

    Guess what? No-one builds modems in Australia anymore and that has a lot to do with the dumping of cheap - dirt cheap - American imports into the Australian market. The imports were cheap because they were old stock that the US weren't selling in the states anymore, so they found a market and dumped thousands of cheap units in it. That market was ours, and we couldn't compete.

    Compared to the US economy, ours is Bill Gates' housekeeping money.
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    See? Economies of scale! :D

    E_S
  14. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    That's called 'the economics of specialisation'.

    You see, there are comparative cost advantages in buying cheap imports from the United States.

    Now, of course every business will whinge about competition but you don't really think it is fair to protect them and force consumers to pay higher prices, do you?

  15. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
  16. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    Well then wouldn't it be great if we could all start a business, then be given tons of Government subsidies, have all trade with the competition taxed and regulated so we can set up our own private monopoly producing inferior products?

    All for the "good of society" of course. [face_mischief]
  17. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    You've obviously never been made redundant in a company put out of business by cheap arse imports.

    Cheap doesn't mean better, by the way.

    What we could all do, is not actually produce anything in this country because we shouldn't be protected from people being paid 20c a day. We can all live off the service industries (anything that doesn't produce a product to sell) or the mining/farming industries. Then we can all sit back and watch our trade deficit get higher and higher and higher. What was it, 2 billion dollars last month alone?
  18. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    You've obviously never been made redundant in a company put out of business by cheap arse imports.

    Ahhh, I see.

    So do you think that you had a right to that job? Do you think it is fair that the Government force people to pay taxes on their private trades so you can keep your job?

    Cheap doesn't mean better, by the way.

    But if people would rather buy the cheaper product than the expensive one (regardless of quality), that is entirely their choice don't you think?

    What we could all do, is not actually produce anything in this country because we shouldn't be protected from people being paid 20c a day. We can all live off the service industries (anything that doesn't produce a product to sell) or the mining/farming industries.

    Firstly, there are things that Australia can produce very efficiently.

    Secondly, our dominant sector is the service industries and only third world countries have dominant agricultural sectors (thus it makes sense to import from them). As usual, our economy will adjust to the changes and new industries will appear in the place of the old ones.

    Then we can all sit back and watch our trade deficit get higher and higher and higher. What was it, 2 billion dollars last month alone?

    The dollar should eventually decrease, and our export markets will rise again. Eventually the Australian dollar will become too expensive which will lower demand for it - thus decreasing it's value.


  19. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Economic rationalism like this doesn't matter a hoot when you have lost your job, have a mortgage to pay and kids to feed.

    Arguing against taxes on transactions is a laughable, you can't scratch yourself these days without being taxed. I don't agree with the "me" ideal that doesn't care about anything or anyone as long as you can buy a toaster a few dollars cheaper that has pervaded this country. The buy Australian promotion doesn't work because most people don't care, as long as it doesn't effect them. I care that Australian industry is being lost overseas. I care that the only jobs in plentiful supply are those that don't actually produce anything of value. You have no idea how much the electronics industry in Australia has declined over the past 10 years. It's less than half the size it was when I first started work. I can name at least a dozen large manufacturers that have closed their doors.

    Are you saying it's a good thing that the Australian economy is moving towards simply being a service industry economy with a bit of sheep back riding to help it along?

    Watch our standard of living slide if this trend continues. As I said, see you down at McDonalds where we can all flip burgers for each other for a living.
  20. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I'm going to agree with Uruk on this.

    Economists forget, when they're all excited over cost effectiveness and competition, that there are people involved. They may be cracking a fat over FTA's but at the end of the day, you are dealing with actual lives.

    E_S
  21. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    Economic rationalism like this doesn't matter a hoot when you have lost your job, have a mortgage to pay and kids to feed.

    Therefore you find it preferable that the taxpayer keep your company afloat so that YOU can keep your job.

    Arguing against taxes on transactions is a laughable, you can't scratch yourself these days without being taxed.

    That's kind of a stupid argument don't you think? - ie: 'It's useless arguing against being taxed because we are taxed so much anyway...'

    I don't agree with the "me" ideal that doesn't care about anything or anyone as long as you can buy a toaster a few dollars cheaper that has pervaded this country.

    But it's the "me" ideal which is spurring your whinging fit against globalisation. YOU don't like it because YOU lost YOUR job. YOU would rather YOUR job be protected by the taxpayer. YOU want Government to force people to deal with the company YOU work for.

    The buy Australian promotion doesn't work because most people don't care, as long as it doesn't effect them. I care that Australian industry is being lost overseas. I care that the only jobs in plentiful supply are those that don't actually produce anything of value. You have no idea how much the electronics industry in Australia has declined over the past 10 years. It's less than half the size it was when I first started work. I can name at least a dozen large manufacturers that have closed their doors.

    What you fail to mention is that the Australian economy has adjusted to these changes and we still have a strong economy with high retail turnover:

    [image=http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/dbb02b2f27b254bbca256cbf0017218c/Body/0.181E!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif]

    Household Consumption expenditure:

    [image=http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/77947a618cee55f5ca256cbf0017218b/Body/0.1428!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif]

    Private new capital expenditure:

    [image=http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/2cab34635b1e8b7bca256cbf0017218d/Body/0.1540!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif]

    Industry economic activity:

    [image=http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/3a52d04514fc2649ca256cbf00172194/Body/0.FDC!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif]

    Tourism:

    [image=http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/834326f243b9a4a0ca256cbf00172196/Body/0.5CE0!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif]

    Average weekly earnings:

    [image=http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/277de45665c11900ca256cbf0017219d/Body/0.17B0!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif]

    International comparisons of Real GDP

    [image=http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/dda097c06d31cdd7ca256cbf001721af/Body/0.15CC!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif]

    But all of this occured despite increasing globalisation? The competition from glbal markets has made our industries more competitive, innovative and efficient. Protectionism causes industries to stagnate.

    Are you saying it's a good thing that the Australian economy is moving towards simply being a service industry economy with a bit of sheep back riding to help it along?

    Well just look at the statistics.

    Watch our standard of living slide if this trend continues. As I said, see you down at McDonalds where we can all flip burgers for each other for a living.

    How utterly laughable that statement is. Average weekly earnings have RISEN and the Australian economy is doing well - we are one of the top economies in the world. Or would you rather we all be working for Government monopolised industries?

    EDIT: You're going to have to cut and paste the url to view the graphs.
  22. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    I'm going to agree with Uruk on this.

    Economists forget, when they're all excited over cost effectiveness and competition, that there are people involved. They may be cracking a fat over FTA's but at the end of the day, you are dealing with actual lives.

    E_S


    :_|

    That's right, Ender Sai. Have a heart... by forcing people to buy from the company I work for so I don't have to bother looking for another job. And then after that you can raise the award rate and give me extra work entitlements.

    Never mind that someone actually has to PAY for this - it's all about having a heart and showing sympathy for your fellow man.........












    YEAH RIGHT!
  23. Teknobabel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2000
    star 5
    Ender Sai: Economists forget, when they're all excited over cost effectiveness and competition, that there are people involved. They may be cracking a fat over FTA's but at the end of the day, you are dealing with actual lives.


    I agree with Ender on this, economists might be able to prove their theories on paper, and then wonder it can't work in practice.

    Nyder, if you believe that "high retail turnover" is all that matters in retail, i'd love to see the way you'd run a retail store, i'd give you 4 months tops if all you focus on is turnover.

    Having worked in retail for 4 years, I'd tell you that turnover is up, but gross profit percentages are down, but judging from how you seem to blindly trust statistics & graphs you wouldn't believe me. Never mind, keep thinking that you can solve everything with a pie graph and i'm sure the world will be a better place.
  24. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    Not to mention the fact that household spending is up for one reason - low interest rates. The level of personal debt in this country is mind boggling. It's unsustainable.
  25. Nyder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    Nyder, if you believe that "high retail turnover" is all that matters in retail, i'd love to see the way you'd run a retail store, i'd give you 4 months tops if all you focus on is turnover.

    Having worked in retail for 4 years, I'd tell you that turnover is up, but gross profit percentages are down, but judging from how you seem to blindly trust statistics & graphs you wouldn't believe me. Never mind, keep thinking that you can solve everything with a pie graph and i'm sure the world will be a better place.


    Fancy talk from someone who has shown absolutely no evidence to back up his/her claims.

    I'm presenting the aggregrates here and operating profit (before tax) has increased over the decade of the 1990s:

    COMPARISONS WITH 1991-92

    Compared with 1991-92 the number of businesses in the retail trade industry has 1991-92 increased by 18% and employment has increased by 33%. The total income over the period increased by 48% which represented an annual growth rate of 5%, while the operating profit before tax has almost doubled to $5.4 billion. The operating profit margin of the industry has increased from 2.4% in 1991-92 to 3.2% in 1998-99.

    PROFITABILITY

    The operating profit before tax generated by businesses in the retail trade industry was $5.4 billion and their operating profit margin was 3.2%. The most profitable retail trade industry group was the Household equipment repair services industry which returned an operating profit margin of 7.3%. The least profitable groups were Department stores and Motor vehicle retailing, both with an operating profit margin of 1.7%.


    Well there's the cold, hard facts for you.

    Interesting that overall the operating profits
    (defined as: Total income plus closing inventories less total expenses less opening inventories) have INCREASED over the 1990s.
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