London Shootings - Breaking News!!!

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Sinrebirth, Jul 22, 2005.

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  1. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    " an innocent young electrician, who very much liked Britain apparently, was shot in the head for wearing a large jacket and not renewing his student visa promptly. "

    a) He wasn't "innocent". He's here illegally (or was, rather)
    b) He was not shot for wearing a jacket and not renewing his Visa. He was shot because he ran from police onto a crowded train the day after terrorist attacks on said trains
  2. Dickie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2005
    star 4
    You obviously don't have relatives in Northern Ireland then, who have been shot at, live with the threat of bombings for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, have had houses petrol bombed or been taken out and beaten. Those who are still alive, live with that everyday. Those who arn't so lucky don't live at all. I don't recall anyone thinking about sueing the soldier who shot him, or trying to sue the bombers who got caught after blowing up a shopping street.

    No, we didn't.

    That doesn't mean we still don't care. You end up just wanting the whole mess to be cleared up, and hoping that the bigotted bastards who create the problems, and preach the hate see sense. Or that for them, whatever they are 'fighting' for is worth those lives.

  3. Vlad-the-Inhaler Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 1
    thenkyou for the lecture on police procedure Dick, and your other mainly offensive comments.

    you miss several key points.

    this man was innocent.

    he wasn't a bomber.

    the 'house' he left was actually a large block of flats. he was not a co-habitee of bombers.

    the wrong place at the wrong time is not a public tube station.

    this man was, in all respects, like several thousand people that morning. except unluckier.


    however police deal wth known dangerous criminals and known bombers, good luck to them ? but this man was shot dead on mistaken identity alone, and that is unacceptable in our democratic society. this shoot-to-kil policy must be re-examined.

    primarily, if the man was such a suspect, should he not have been approached as he left his house, by unfiorm officers. Why the cloak and dagger?

    somehow you feel to criticise the police is somehow unpatriotic, perhaps even pro-terrorist . If so, you misunderatand the point I am making about the erosion of British justce..

    you also suggest you would enjoy a physical encounter to violenty put me in my place.

    to which I say 1) that it confirms you as moronic Sun reader 2) Glasgow, ya wee bawbag, anytime. When I'm not playing on Star Wars boards, I'm a 38-year-old 6ft 2 skinhead, and it'd be a pleasure to meet you. :D


    edit
    // has relatves in NI
    //has relatives in police and prison service
  4. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    And how were the police to know that?

    And how were the police to know that at the time?

    Well, no ****! You don't say?


    No it shouldn't. At the time, it was believed that this guy was a terrorist. All it takes is one movement to set off a bomb. We need to be certain that these guys can't set offf their explosives, therefore they need to be shot in the head. It's an unfortunate accident, nothing more. It's inevitable that innocent people will be killed, but for the greater good it has to be that way.


    Please say that's a joke question? You can't walk up to a suspected terrorist in full police regalia as they'll just set off their bomb there and then. It needed to be "cloak and dagger" as you put it because otherwise the guy would know we were onto him and it would give him a chance to escape.


    In this case, I find it is. The police did a magnificent job in taking down a person they suspected to be a terrorist. The only problem was that he wasn't a terrorist.



    That is perhaps the most unintentionally funny thing I've ever read.



  5. Vlad-the-Inhaler Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 1
    vy thenkyou..... :D

    I thought your 'the police did a magnificent job in taking down a person they suspected to be a terrorist. The only problem was that he wasn't a terrorist" was pretty good too...



  6. Dickie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2005
    star 4
    1) I don't read the Sun.
    2) Lack of hair, excess height and being from Glasgow. Great.


    Sorry, perhaps I wasn't too clear about the NI part, I have relatives there (on both sides bizarely), and a cousin who hailed from Liverpool too. He's still buried there after being killed on patrol. Before that happened, whenever we spoke to him, he also complained about his job being hampered by regulations which designed to protect innocent people (which is a good idea, seeing as they're the people who are supposed to be protected) but actually stack everything in favour of the terrorist, and thus, placing people at greater risk. I'm not saying that guy who died needed to die, or that it was right, but that it's not right to blame the Policemen who we're doing their best to protect people. People make mistakes, and the firearms units tend to make less than most, lets hope this is used to improve the system (by improving how they attempt to stop people at first maybe, I don't know) rather than scrapping the shoot to kill policy which in Iraq has been proven to save lives, although it may not be completely suitable as it is, certainly is along the right lines. After all, if you are following a suicide bomber, how else do you stop him?

    Again, we wouldn't be in this situation if some other problems round the world (i.e Israel/Palestine, Iraq etc) been handled slightly better. What we need to do is stop them striking again, then address the issues. what we must not do though, is say "You stop bombing, and we'll solve the problem for you." which although might solve it this time, teaches people that terrorism works, and would result in even more people being killed.
  7. Vlad-the-Inhaler Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 1
    "Again, we wouldn't be in this situation if some other problems round the world (i.e Israel/Palestine, Iraq etc) been handled slightly better"

    ah, the light of reason dawns on the horizon of hostility.

    most welcome.

    I withdraw the Sun comment, which I appreciated was a grave insult.

  8. TK_Four_Two_One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 5
    Guys, MrDankDonk (Vlad) has aired his opinions and a couple of you have just totally went ballistic and slagged him off. Thats not a proper discussion. Now, it would be easy for me to join in this slagging match and take your 'sides' as there is no love lost between MrDankDonk and me (and I admit there has been an antagonising method in his posts) but he is generally airing his opinions- which should be discussed in a level headed manner (eg watch Halibut)? Or am I wrong?
  9. Dickie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, I think I stated the first bit back somewhere near the begining of this thing, what we have to do now is deal with the situation we are in now, then make sure it doesn't happen again. Getting rid of Worlds #1 Terrorist - Mr George W. Bush would be a start. Then tell Israel to get it's act together, and take a serious look at the problem there.



    And as for the Sun comment, I must admit I was immensly offended. :p
  10. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    I looked back here expecting the tensions and insults to have escalated, but I am glad to see that things are calming down.

    This is a highly contentious issue, but it's better for everyone if we can stick to debating rather than insulting each other.

    Vlad, you say you use the BBC for your information. I just found this quote.

    "He had been followed by police, who had his block of flats under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.

    When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier. "

    Now it's unlikely that he thought he was going to be attacked by a gang in such a public place as a tube station. It also states that he was challenged before he fled. To me, this means that they stated they were police in a calm situation before he ran. He knew he was running from police, and not from a gang. The BBC also state that there has recently been a clampdown on illegal residents. I expect there's little doubt as to the reason he ran. I also have little doubt that he was told to "Stop, or we'll shoot". At the end of the day, you don't run from the police especially in a hightened state of security.

    Another thought. In America (and possibly here I'm not sure), they have what is called "Suicide by cop". This case seems to fit that. He was told to "Stop or we'll shoot", and he didn't, thus forcing the policeman's hand.
  11. Vlad-the-Inhaler Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 1
    ha

    :D

    an outbreak of diplomacy ! from TK no less !

    unt Dickie is in tune mit der real problem too !

    c'mon...... group hug.....

    :D
  12. Dickie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2005
    star 4
    OK, now (a cup of tea later) I sorta think I need to apologise, this is a topic I find close to me, and I feel very strongly about the growing amount of rules and regs which at times tie one hand behind the back of our security forces (for what I hope are obvious reasons...). A lot of it comes back to lawyers who look for cases, in a similar way to compensation lawyers effects on many small businesses - but thats another story.

    Sorry guys.


    As for this guys compensation, the guy I mentioned before who quit the AR unit says that most people who are shot and killed by Police are compensated anyway was a matter of course (well, their families are) because they pay for funeral expenses, and the family recieves some compensation and extra support if the person killed was a parent or something and they have lost that income. Thats different to sueing them though apparently, as sueing means someone is to blame, whereas the standard system accepts they were either just doing their job and got their man or it was an accident, which was unavoidable in the situation. Also, most people who refuse the standard compentsation and go for the sueing method usually end up with less, because although they are awarded more, the legal fees of the lawyer (which can run as high as 50% of damages) take quite a bit.



    Meh, must got to work now, someone has just pulled another sickie in 4 days, the first one was so he could go to the pub. Someone else I work with has just seen him on the train into town. I also know he does read the Sun. &@%£$^!%@!!!
  13. Vlad-the-Inhaler Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 1
    suicide by cop?

    maybe in hamerica, where der cops are trigger-happy, this could be possible, but in Britain, until three days ago, vun would haf to behave very dangerously indeed to be assured of an armed response squad...

    now perhaps, that has changed.

    der will be no-one daft enough to run on der tube platform for menny menny months, hunless they want der head like der bowling ball.
  14. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    To me, if someone says "I'm gonna sue", it means that they are purely interested in getting as much money as they can. Otherwise they would lobby for an investigation. The idea behind sueing someone is pure financial, and a way to seek compensation.

    As Dickie stated, they should get compensation anyway from the police to help out with the things that have already been stated.

    Of course we'll get the usual "Money won't bring our [insert name here] back", so why sue? Lobby the police force. Get answers. Get an apology. If you believe that sueing is the only way to get the police to admit liability (which they have already done anyway) and it's "not about the money" then give any money you may receive to a suitable charity. But somehow I don't see that happening
  15. Vlad-the-Inhaler Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 1
    au revoir Dickie

    ve vill deal mit der lawyer subject some other time, yes?

    amusingly, I ham married to vun..... but she, fortunately, does not get involved mit der defending criminals unt der scamming insurance companies....... but she does chuck a lot of junkies out of council houses .....
  16. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    I dont see how theis sueing case will even get into court
    What are they going to sue the Police for?

    They did everything the right way in a professional manor, they just shot the wrong person

    The only thing they should be charged with is bad investigating which resulted in them suspecting an innocent man
  17. orn-free-tada Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 6
    I was just watching the ITV news and heard about the Sueing situation from teh family of the bazillian man who was shot. I honeslty get really frustrated by hte letters of hate at teh site of where the man was shot ( letters of hate to teh police).
  18. timbolton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 5
    Security sources have said Mr Menezes had been in the UK on an out-of-date student visa, but his family deny this and are considering suing the police.

    Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said the police would "kill thousands of people" if they were not held accountable for what had happened at Stockwell on Friday.

    He said: "They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did. They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."
    Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm


    I am curious about the visa. It is said he was on a student visa, so therefore he is a student. But all sources say he was a young electrician? I am sorry, but as I understand it a student visa is given only to people coming to study over here, and there are strict regulations on how much paid work foreign students are allowed to do (I think when I was at uni it was actually illegal for some internationals from certain countries to find paid work). So he is allegedly here illegally, it seems that the reason he is here is mainly to earn money for his family -


    "Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

    Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially."
    Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm


    This is an interesting quote -


    "When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.

    Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian papers in London."
    Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm


    So as I said yesterday - he was obviously running because he was doing something wrong. Now while no one should be shot dead for the crime he was committing, he should have been deported. I am guessing he wasn't paying NI or taxes as he didn't have a valid visa to work here. But the problem is - it was the day after a major terrorist attack and two weeks after lots of deaths. In all reports I have seen, the police challenged him and let him know they were the police. The man ran (because he is an illegal immigrant) but he charged towards the tube the day after terrorists had tried to blow up several tube trains. I am sorry he is dead, but please don't tell me the police had any option but to stop him. They believed they were hunting a bomber (unfortunately he wasn't), he charged a train in a hefty coat which was a method used worldwide by terrorists to hide explosives strapped to their bodies. Suicide bombers are not known for caring for anything but finishing the mission. So what other option did the police have? It seems they fired 7 times now, but no matter the excessive nature of the death, it was policemen making a snap decision to save London commuters from what was obviously a man with some guilt. Unfortunately the man turned out to be an idiot who had no intelligence when it comes to the fact he was innocent of what they thought, but still ran at a time when nutters are trying to kill civilians by getting themselves on trains and blowing themselves up.

    No way of looking at this differently. I am saddened that it happened, but NO ONE should run from the police when challenged and if you do, then you suffer the consequences. Obviously if this had been a month before the man would not have been shot, but I blame the terrorists for why the police have to kill first, ask questions later, rather than the police themselves because the day (in the future) they don't will mean that a potential bomber blows them and the tube he attacks up just because they tried to hold him down rather than stop him outright.

    The only good terrorist is a dead and failed terror
  19. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    =D=

    Can't disagree with a word you've said.

    I find it interesting that the family deny the visa story. It's exceptionally difficult to believe that the information saying he was here illegally would be released with extensive checks. The family denying that casts a large doubt of credibility over anything the family says.

    I'm pretty sure that the police/government would have more knowledge over what Visas they've approved than a member of the public.
  20. AmberStarbright Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2002
    star 7
    I agree, I said to my other half before even his name was released that the fact it was taking so long to "identify" him meant that he was probably in the country illegally.
  21. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I continue to find this event, and the response to it, deeply disturbing.

    I fully accept that this was not an easy situation for the police and that their actions may have been justifiable. However if we accept that agents of the state can gun down an innocent man and only respond with, oh well **** happens and we had to play it safe, type of comment then the murdering scum who bombed London have achieved a victory of sorts.

    This incident must be investiagted thoroughly and the full facts established. Only then can a sensible judgement be made as to how reasonable the decision to kill this man was. Only then will it be appropriate to decide on what action to take.

    One question though. Many have said that the police had no choice. If that was the case were the police wrong to have allowed him to make a 15 minute bus journey?
  22. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    Out of interest, where does it say he made a 15 minute bus journey first?
  23. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Out of interest, where does it say he made a 15 minute bus journey first?

    This BBC article includes the line

    On Friday morning, Mr Menezes had left his flat in Tulse Hill and boarded a bus towards Stockwell Tube station.


    I can't remember where I read about it being a 15 minute journey but it hardly matters how long he was on the bus.
  24. Darth_Daver Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2005
    star 5
    It said on BBC TV news tonight that he made a complete bus journey before they confronted him.
  25. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    Thanks for the link :)

    Let's bear in mind that at the time he was a suspected terrorist. To me, it seems that they wanted to know where he was going. Perhaps he was going to meet his "bosses", or to pick up explosives or whatever, hence they followed him. Once he headed for the tube, though, the time was right to pick him up.

    Or perhaps the police were in radio contact with their bosses (which is very likely). They would have been guiding the officers as to the course of action. Once he was heading for a tube, they could have gotten the instruction "Ok, bring him in".
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