London Shootings - Breaking News!!!

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Sinrebirth, Jul 22, 2005.

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  1. timbolton Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 5
    DarthKarde has brought up a good point though - if he were a bomber, why allow him on what could become a crowded bus? That is using civilians in a very dangerous game, since there has been two buses targeted so far too. It becomes more difficult as the exact scenario is slowly but surely revealed.
  2. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    Vlad Dank-Donk still hasn't said what he would have done if he were the police.

    And i'm still baffled about the "38 year old 6'2" skinhead" comment. If that was an implied threat then he managed to pick the three attributes that are MOST IRRELEVANT to fighting ability:

    Age
    Height
    Haircut!

    [face_worried] [face_laugh]
  3. Vlad-the-Inhaler Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 1
    But I did, I did.

    If zis man was such a suspect that he warranted beink shot at all, vy was he not simply surrounded, at a reasonable distance, near his flat, before he could be among bus passengers, train passengers etc

    there, away from der crowds, with three or four uniform officers standing at all points of the compass, there would have been no doubt that he was being confronted by armed police and much less risk to other people.

    as Darth Karde helpfully pointed out, the man was allowed to travel on a bus with his big jacket and his suspiciously dark face.

    but really, I find several of the posters who have involved themselves in this thread to be der argumentative little boys, much more interested in defending what you perceive as your little patch of internet with insults, than actually talking about the subject in hand like der thinking adults.

    Dickie impressed me yesterday by taking a deep breath and backing down from der swearing and der threats to " knock some sense into " me, unt I was happy to reciprocate. Such macho posturing amongst young men all over the world is part of the problem.

    Skinhead? indeed it is a haircut, unt a verry verry easy haircut to get at that. As a younger man, I invested in this style, and der boots, and der drugs, unt der fighting, unt even der weapons....... but I am happy now to have put such things in my past...... but der red haze descends when I am theatened with violence for having a contrary opinion, for which I too have apologised.

    but here you are, stirring der ashes of yesterday's flames. How tiresome.
  4. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    I'm not going to second guess what the armed police did or should have done. Until one has a split second life and death decision to make where the action you take holds the lives of others in your hands then maybe you can understand the situation.

    As far as I am concerned none of us here are anti-terrorist/counter-terrorism/surviellance experts. There was obviously a greater plan at work - which was targetting the wrong man. The shooters were more than likely a) given the target to follow by intelligence sources b) carrying out preconcieved orders and tactics and c) allowed to act "in response" to actions on the ground.

    Hindsight is a good thing - unfortunately the officers involved had one second to make the critical decision. They cannot have a doubt in their head that they are doing the wrong thing. Head shots are the only way you can be sure that a would be suicide bomber cannot trigger the device.

    The mistake is a sad one but I back the police 100%. If one lesson has been learnt it is - Don't run away from armed police.

  5. MrDankDonk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2001
    star 4
    hello Brush-Boy :D

    aye, well, when all is said and done, I've been arguing the liberal corner here cos no-one else was, and it was beginning to sound like a bunch of yanks going "fudge yeah, we got one ? well we didn't, but he was foreign, so what the hell"

    Dont let Britain become Amerca kids, or you'll live to regret it. [face_plain]

    But, back on topic. the more circular this debate gets, the more I'm inclined to just sit back and wait and see what the final factual inquiry has to say about how well the procedures were carried out.

    If the polis did make their identity clear, Mr Menenzes was very silly indeed ? if they didn't, they should have.

  6. TK_Four_Two_One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 5
    With regarding the bus- we dont know all teh facts about that- was it empty? did he sit on his own? and plus i dont think its common for them to get on the first bus outside their own place and detonate themselves on that bus.
  7. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    Mr DD,

    I agree. Too many people are making assumptions without knowing the facts. Lets wait for the outcome of the inquiry.
  8. MrDankDonk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2001
    star 4
    there are some new quotes from Jack Straw in Scottish press regarding Mr Menenzes disputed visa ? the gist of which is that he was not here illegally and had no reason to fear immigration officers

    hrmmmmm

    there is just too much media static around this now for anyone outwith the loop to know what is actually the truth and what is spin, whichever way that spin takes the debate.


    anyway, BrushBoy, still soul-sliding ?
  9. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
  10. MrDankDonk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2001
    star 4
    lambretta club parts fair at firhill stadium last weekend...

    got vinyl ist press originals of 'love on a mountain top' and 'band of gold' for my missus, cos that's her favourites....

    and


    er...

    picked up a spare copy of 'the snake', just cos, well, I might DJ a wedding some day, y'never know.....
  11. TK_Four_Two_One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 5
    Oh dear! Oh dear! Oh dear!
  12. mvwg3003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2005
    star 4
  13. MrDankDonk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2001
    star 4
    the facts are:
    ? he didn't jump any barriers - cos he had a season ticket
    ? he didn't have on a bulky jacket
    ? the police were NOT in uniform
    ? he did not run from officers - he ran onto a train, but stopped on the way for a copy of the Metro
    ? he was sitting down reading his paper when they jumped on him and killed him

    and finally

    ? the misidentification seems to have begun when the officer watching No21 in the observed flats went for a piss, and came back in time to see only Mr Menenzes back as he walked off down the street, having emerged from No 17.

    This sounds increasingly like a full-on ****-up ? I hope everyone above who argued so vociferously that the police must have been justified in shooting this innocent man will maybe be less gung-ho in their support of armed justice in future ? that guy could really really have been any one of us, shot dead because the police got it entirely wrong.
  14. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    I've gone into a state of not giving a **** about this incident anymore. Mistakes happen. People die. Get over it.
  15. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    "I've gone into a state of not giving a **** about this incident anymore. Mistakes happen. People die. Get over it."

    :eek:

    Try telling that to this poor man and family. :(

    If the fact that he has been shot wrongly isn't bad enough, he's also been smeared and had his name blackened by the police after his death.
  16. MrDankDonk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2001
    star 4
    Mustafar 66, you may well grow up to be a good person, but statements like that, I'm sorry to say, make you sound like a total fanny.

    Some things are important, and the right not to be mistakenly shot by the police is one of them.
    If you do not yet appreciate how vital it is that people do not let such incidents pass on a "**** happens" ticket, you should not embarass yirself by posting on the matter.

    Sorry to be blunt, but you might fnd it helps build character.
  17. Stormtrooper_fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2003
    star 5
    This tradgedy is going to have far reaching implications for our forces on the front line so-to-speak, I just hope that the terrorists currently in this country don't use this as some kind of distraction and while everyone is busy pointing fingers they will sneak by the jittery police and murder more people.

    I'm very sad for the loss of an innocent life and in a perfect world this would never have to happen but then 55 innocent people seem to have been all but forgotten in the wake of this story.

    I still stand by the police, there's enough of them getting stabbed and shot without so much of a blink of an eye from the caring public.
  18. nathan_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 3
  19. FatBurt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 5
    I understand the **** happens point of view and why people may think that way. And yes it's true **** does happen but we should learn from it and move on. A monumental ****-up occured with this and with the police trying to cover things up it can only get worse.

    We need to find out why it occured and put steps in place to prevent it happening again like giving the copper who went for a pee a bottle (though you can't pin blame on him for needing a pee)
  20. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    Okay, maybe that was a bit harsh. I've spent my time talking to too many Americans. Do we know whether or not the police shouted that they were police? My arguement sort of rests on this point.
  21. MrDankDonk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2001
    star 4
    I don't think they did, Musty old son.

    policy is, apparently, not to identify in case it prompts early detonation.

    while this is probably quite correct when dealing with a real bomber, its a bitch if its mistaken identity.

    don't mistake me ? I know the police are under a lot of pressure, and there were scenarios where what happened, though tragic, would have been understandable ? particulary the notion that Menezes jumped barriers and ran when challenged.

    However, if, as it seems, he was shot entirely on mistaken identity or command chain failure, that is more than human error, its incompetence, and incompetent people should not be running about with guns.
  22. TK_Four_Two_One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 5
    According to the ITV 'leaked documents' police was actually shouted and the man got up and moved towards them- then the surveillance team member pinned him to the ground and then he felt gun shots past his head ( 8 of them) and he was pulled off Mendes. There was no justification for shooting him. But as has been said- these were under extreme circumstances and London was on edge- I feel a few officers sadly went over that edge. Definitely a horrible tragedy that highlights the errors in the system they (the police surveillance use at the minute. Will we even know the real truth when the investigations finished?

    On a side note- has the victims of the 7/7 bombings been buried yet? I have not heard a peep about any of them on the radio.
  23. Stormtrooper_fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2003
    star 5
    Some of the bodies still haven't been released to the families they're taking their time over identifying the victims properly because in the Spanish (I think) bombing there were several mistaken identities and it led to alot of unneccesary suffering for the families involved.
  24. TK_Four_Two_One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 5
    Cheers, Nik. I had a feeling they hadnt been buried.
  25. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    Ok, it appears that it was a tragic mistake. But those of us posting last month were only going by the evidence that existed at that time. The news said he ran, was wearing a big coat and was a suspect. In those circumstances there was some justification.

    Yes, it now appears to be much more of a **** up.


    The problem is, this talk of charging the police with murder, abolishing the shoot-to-kill policy and making the Police Commissioner resign is a knee-jerk reaction that will jeopardise the security of this country at this dangerous time. A mistake was made - lets remove our security measures!! THAT is the type of 'common sense' that has made our country such a mess. We are falling for the classic 'divide and conquer' strategy of the terrorists and fighting amongst ourselves.

    Might as well lay out a buffet for the suicide bombers...

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