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Looking for a quote

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by ben_07, Apr 16, 2004.

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  1. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    We've found his quote, along with where it came from.

    What "long promised quote" from Lucas are you talking about? And how do you expect anyone on the forums to come up with it?

    Unless you mean the ones that Jedi Master ousley already posted, which make it perfectly clear that Palpatine and Sidious and the Emperor are all the same character? (Although he missed the one from the TPM commentary that says Palpatine is the same character as the Emperor- my personal favourite...)
     
  2. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    Scott,

    I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. ben_07 and I are looking for a quote that has Lucas specifically stating that Sidious is Palpatine. Nothing you guys have brought does that, not even that quote from the TPM commentary. That is the "long promised" quote I am talking about, the one that everyone claims to have heard or read, yet no one seems to be able to find. Oh, well, I guess I will haev to keep waiting. Maybe the OT DVDs will have something to say on the matter... Yeah, right.
     
  3. MR-Mophead-2u

    MR-Mophead-2u Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2003

    Bennnnnnnnnnnnn:

    PM D_Lowe if you want to know the particulars of a specific quote.

    PM Darth_Howell_III if you want to know how it's possible for P and S to be two separate beings, AND one being.

    D_Lowe knows all the quotes. Howell has somehow made it possible to reconcile all these beliefs into one concept. (Hint: it's nothing to do with factory-produced "clones", just metaphorical "clones", ie look-alikes.)
     
  4. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    >>>>I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand

    Oh, I understand it perfectly well. Maybe you should read my last post again.

    ben_07 was looking for a quote which has been found- source and all.

    What "long promised quote" from Lucas are you talking about? And how do you expect anyone on the forums to come up with it?

    >>>Nothing you guys have brought does that, not even that quote from the TPM commentary.

    No, but it does state that Palpatine becomes the Emperor.
     
  5. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Peeler, This thread is not about my asssumption. It is about ben_07's assumption.

    The point was you tried to say that assumption and deduction are the same thing. They aren't.

    P=S is a deduction, because Lucas has said P=E and S=E.

    P= clone is an assumption, because unless you can provide your mythical essay there is no proof.


    Please stay on topic. He asked for a particular statement. Find it.

    He asked for a quote from Lucas or McCallum. Several have been provided, and I provided a link.

    His question has been asnwered and the mods can close this thread down if they want to at this point.
     
  6. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Oh God not another one

    DarthBane wrote:This is Star Wars, twists and shocks are part of the plot, Obi dying in ANH, Vader being Luke's Father, Leia being his sister, every movie has a shocker to some degree, some small, some large.

    You know, watching Episode III and expecting some big twist is like watching the end of the Sixth Sense and seeing the big twist, then watching the beginning and middle and expceting another big twist.

    It's a prequel that has to fit in with the OT.

    Additionally, Pablo confirmed there would be no big twists in Episode III..


    5. Watching TPM it's very clear to see that physically Palpatine and Sidious are portrayed differently, not just the cloak but the stature and the height.

    BS, you are making this up. Other than dropping his voice a bit he's just Palpatine in a hood.

    On the other hand, Palpatine is portrayed exactly as he is in ROTJ. In ATOC he walks the same, talks the same and likes to look out his big window at all he surveys.

    And speaking of his walk, the way he walks with Maul on his balcony in TPM is exactly the same as how he walks with Anakin in his office in ATOC and on the Death Star when he moves in to tempt Luke in ROTJ.

    In fact, I've seen clone theorists complain that Ian is a poor actor because his manerisms are the same for Sidious, Palpatine and the Emperor!

    Nice try though.
     
  7. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "While you wait for my long promised essay, I wait for this long promised quote from Lucas. That seems fair."

    And between the two of you, at least we know George is actually writing something...
     
  8. vacantlook

    vacantlook Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Of course, I'm a silly person. Here I thought that Yoda saying there's always two: a master and an apprentice, and Mace's reply pondering which was killed the master or the apprentice, and then the great ominous shot focusing in on Palpatine was pretty blatantly telling us that Palpatine is the master, and since we knew Maul's master was Darth Sidious, that would then be a big statement that Palpatine=Sidious.
     
  9. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    I guess when you can't find the evidence you have to resort to insult. It's okay. You have up until the release of Ep3 to find this quote that everyone has claimed to have read or heard at some point. I prefer not to pretend that Lucas or McCallum have made statements that they have not.

    So ben_07, what do you make of all this? The only quote that makes an explicit connection is an unverified statement from McCallum. Does that seem convincing to you?

    vacantlook,
    That is an assumption you made based on the editting of the scene. It is not the same thing as actually seeing Palpatine leave his office and go hang out with Maul in his Sidious robes. There is a big difference between seeing and assuming. It is okay that you made that assumption, though. You are supposed to make that assumption. Ep3 will reveal why you were lead to that assumption. Now let's get back on topic and find that quote for ben_07.
     
  10. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Emos,

    Again, Palpatine=Sidious is a deduction. It is based on evidence, such as Sidious going for a walk on Palpatine's balcony.

    Again, Palpatine=clone is your assumption. It is based on nothing, unless you can prove otherwise.

     
  11. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    Again, you are off topic. This thread is not about my deduction or your deduction.

    It is about ben_07's request for a specific kind of quote.

    One that you can not provide.

    Why do you insist on going off-topic?
     
  12. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "I prefer not to pretend that Lucas or McCallum have made statements that they have not."

    I prefer not to pretend that you have written any essays that you have not. Everything comes out even.

    I see you changed your .sig again. I guess we can take it for granted that it'll never show up? (Not that there was any doubt.)
     
  13. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Of course, I'm a silly person. Here I thought that Yoda saying there's always two: a master and an apprentice, and Mace's reply pondering which was killed the master or the apprentice, and then the great ominous shot focusing in on Palpatine was pretty blatantly telling us that Palpatine is the master, and since we knew Maul's master was Darth Sidious, that would then be a big statement that Palpatine=Sidious

    No, no, you see, Lucas wants to make us think Palpatine is Sidious, so we can come to the conclusion that he really isn't, but actually, Lucas is just fooling us there as well, because he expects we'll come to the conclusion that they're different, so we'll be suprised when they are the same, which is exactly what he's hoping for because he's planning on making them different.

    And that's just the simplified version of the cloner argument.
     
  14. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    Still no one has the quote ben_07 is looking for? Oh, dear. I guess you'll have to settle for your deduction without Lucas's support. I'll settle for my deduction just as well.
     
  15. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Still no one has the quote ben_07 is looking for? Oh, dear. I guess you'll have to settle for your deduction without Lucas's support. I'll settle for my deduction just as well.

    I'm going to assume you're just trolling, since JMO posted a whole bunch of them on the previous page. Nonetheless, I will take the bait.

    A deduction requires proof and logic, by definition. Thus, the anti-cloner argument is deduction, as it uses established quotes to derive a conclusion through reasoning. The cloner argument, on the other hand, is the exact opposite: it rejects all concrete proof, and assumes that the actual truth is the opposite of any conclusions reached by logic. It is simply contradictory for the sake of being contradictory. It's method of making counterpoints to opposing arguments is to say "Is not!" or "Yeah, that's just what they what you to think!" It's not even a proper theory - a theory, by definition, is falsifiable, which the cloner argument is not since any point that could be used against it is either ignored or twisted.

    Now, might there be a way to use logical deduction to determine that Palpatine is a clone? Perhaps. However, what you are doing is about as far from deduction as possible. "Assumption" is a far better word. And by any logical system, deduction trumps assumption.
     
  16. Emos-Edud

    Emos-Edud Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    Lord Hydronium,

    I assure you I am not interesting in trolling or in any other bannable offense. I am interested in answering ben_07's request.

    In none of those quotes does Lucas explicitly state that Sidious is Palpatine from the PT.

    The McCallum quote is not verified (ie on the official site or in a real news source).

    All you have to do is find a verified quote that explicitly states that Sidious is the PT Palpatine and I will graciously admit defeat.

    Until then assume away.

    And can we all stop debating that which we are not supposed to be debating in this thread? The title makes it pretty clear what we are here for...
     
  17. DarthBane420

    DarthBane420 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2003
    First I want to say I find it very insulting that anyone would mock my signature.
    For over 6 months now I have tried my hardest to bring the quality of posting at TFN, in regards to sound theories backed up with great evidence, that has long been forgotten.
    I am infuriated by your mocking me on this sir.

    Now in regards to the debate, I felt it fair that I rewatch The Phantom Menace last night, arguable the best Star Wars movie out of the PT or OT and I am sure few will disagree with me on this. But I digress...
    There is nothing, I repeat nothing, in the movie to indicate that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, not a single shred of evidence. Viewing the movie in this context it is impossible to say with a 100% degree of certainty they are, that is an argument that ignores the gross, and suspiciously so I might say, lack of evidence to support Palpatine=Sidious.
    Now I will tell you, I am not sure on this subject. I have not yet made up my mind, but I feel it is in this movie, The Phantom Menace, that we can focus are thoughts and try to get to the bottom of this.
    With that being said, what in The Phantom Menace do we see that makes us believe for one second that Palpatine is the evil Darth Sidious?
    We see Palpatine constantly surrounded by Jedi, who sense nothing. Strange no?
    We see a man who walks up right and with a proud stature, why would he need to hunch himself over and appear weathered as he does in his holographic transmissions to Maul? Why disguise himself in this regard, or for that matter why would he disguise himself when meeting Maul on the balcony? Does Maul not know he is Palpatine, please. There would be no need for this.

    I also enjoy how people always ignore a very serious point I have made.
    Do any of you honestly believe if a twist of this magnitude was uncovered that Lucas would come clean and admit it before the movie and blow a three episode build up?
    Lucas is the same guy who had Prowse shouting "Obi Wan is your Father!!" To Luke during the shooting of Empire just to protect the big twist.
    Do you think if you could have asked before hand he would have admitted it? I challenge any of you to answer this, if you try to, it might start you thinking in a completely new way.
     
  18. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Emos-Edud,

    >>>>You have up until the release of Ep3 to find this quote that everyone has claimed to have read or heard at some point.

    PPOR. Seriously. ONE instance where someone has claimed that this "verified, official Lucas quote" you are looking for exists.

    >>>Still no one has the quote ben_07 is looking for?

    It's been pointed out several times now, the post he is looking for has been posted (the second post in the thread, no less), acknowledged by ben_07, and the source provided.

    This is turning into either an excercise in trolling, spamming or both.
     
  19. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    DarthBane[b/] wrote: There is nothing, I repeat nothing, in the movie to indicate that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, not a single shred of evidence. Viewing the movie in this context it is impossible to say with a 100% degree of certainty they are, that is an argument that ignores the gross, and suspiciously so I might say, lack of evidence to support Palpatine=Sidious.

    This is entirely untrue.

    Sidious takes a walk on Palpatine's balcony.

    Sidious speaks of Amidalla as if he knows her.

    Sidious tells Gunray that "In the Senate I will see to it that things stay as they are" after Palpatine is elected Chancellor.

    When Mace and Yoda ask about the Sith Master, the camera pans over to Palpatine with sinister music.

    The victory parade music at the end of TPM is Sidious' theme sung by children at a faster tempo!

    Ian portrays Palpatine as the exact same man in TPM and ATOC as he does the Emperor in ROTJ.

    The list goes on, and we aren't even talking about George Lucas calling both Sidious and Palpatine "The Emperor", the fact that a picture of the character George Lucas calls "Darth Sidious" in on the OS databank entry for Palpatine, and the fact the official summary of Episode III on the OS says Palpatine trys to lure Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side of the Force.

    So spare me the "there is no evidence" BS, because there is and even Emos Edud will admit there is.

    And hey, how about actually acknowleging my reply this time?
     
  20. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    >>>>I am infuriated by your mocking me on this sir.

    I am honestly sorry if my comment offended you. However, it's my opinion that the evidence backing up this "theory" is sorely lacking, and the evidence against it is being blankly ignored.

    >>>There is nothing, I repeat nothing, in the movie to indicate that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, not a single shred of evidence. Viewing the movie in this context it is impossible to say with a 100% degree of certainty they are, that is an argument that ignores the gross, and suspiciously so I might say, lack of evidence to support Palpatine=Sidious.

    Of course there isn't! [EDIT- at least, not evidence which conclusively proves on it's own that the two are the same character.] But in the same context, there's not a single shred of evidence that Anakin will become a Sith and betray the Jedi, that the Jedi will be wiped out, or that Palpatine or Sidious will become an evil oppressive Emperor of the galaxy.

    There is very clearly a revelation being built up for Episode III, and that's the revelation that Palpatine and Sidious are the same character- Palpatine will reveal himself as Sidious when he becomes Emperor.

    In the same way, there is no evidence in the original Star Wars film (or in the first 9/10ths of ESB) that Vader and Luke's father are the same person- however, there are hints which retrospectively point in that direction. There are no such clues that Palpatine is a clone of Sidious.

    In adddition, there are numerous quotes by the actor, writers, producer and director which back up the theory that they are the same character (for example, identifying both Palpatine and Sidious as the future emperor) as well as hints within the film, such as Sidious meeting Maul on Palpatine's balcony, the cut to Palpatine when Yoda and Mace discuss the remaining Sith etc.

    >>>>We see Palpatine constantly surrounded by Jedi, who sense nothing. Strange no?

    Not in the slightest. What are they supposed to sense?

    >>>We see a man who walks up right and with a proud stature, why would he need to hunch himself over and appear weathered as he does in his holographic transmissions to Maul? Why disguise himself in this regard, or for that matter why would he disguise himself when meeting Maul on the balcony? Does Maul not know he is Palpatine, please. There would be no need for this.

    It isn't a disguise- Palpatine is the disguise, Sidious is his true nature.

    >>>I also enjoy how people always ignore a very serious point I have made.
    Do any of you honestly believe if a twist of this magnitude was uncovered that Lucas would come clean and admit it before the movie and blow a three episode build up?
    Lucas is the same guy who had Prowse shouting "Obi Wan is your Father!!" To Luke during the shooting of Empire just to protect the big twist.


    1) The "surprise" that's clearly being set up for the viewer who is watching in numerical order is the reveal that Palpatine isn't the nice man who loves democracy. (The viewer who doesn't know that the Jedi are going to get wiped out, Anakin will betray them, the Republic will become an Empire etc. etc.)
    2) Lucas is also the same guy who publishes the novelisations ahead of the films, and does the same with soundtracks including titles like "Qui Gon's noble end."


    Can anyone provide a single piece of evidence supporting the theory that Palpatine and Sidious are two different characters?
     
  21. DarthBane420

    DarthBane420 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2003
    And hey, how about actually acknowledging my reply this time?
    Let's focus on my one question, directly related to TPM, that you must have missed.
    Why would Sidious be in disguise to Maul? If he is in Palpatines quarters as you suggest, why would he change into his Sith outfit just because Maul was coming over?
     
  22. Scott3eyez

    Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Random trivia: the TPM screenplay I downloaded (can't recall where from I'm afraid- I think it's the draft on starwarz.com) refers to Maul as a hologram in that scene.

    Anyway; it's not a disguise. Palpatine is the disguise ("I love democracy." "I will give this power back as soon as this crisis is over"), Sidious is the true nature. Or do you think the Emperor in the OT is wearing a disguise too? And Maul's robes? (And the Jedi's hooded robes, come to that...)

    Also, Palpatines true identity as Sidious is being hidden from the first-time viewer, in the same way that Vader's identity as Anakin was hidden from the first time viewer until the end of ESB.
     
  23. JustinPeeler

    JustinPeeler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2003
    DarthBane wrote: Let's focus on my one question, directly related to TPM, that you must have missed.
    Why would Sidious be in disguise to Maul? If he is in Palpatines quarters as you suggest, why would he change into his Sith outfit just because Maul was coming over?


    EDIT: He's been talking to the Neomodians recently, so he's still in "costume". That is the obvious answer, but there are others as well:

    Why would Darth Sidious be in disguise in ROTJ to Vader and Luke?

    If I throw on my hooded jacket and take a walk outside my apartment am I no longer the same person, or am I me wearing a jacket?

    Sidious' robes are simular to the robes worn by the Naboo handmadens in the Senate scene. Hmmmmm.

    Finally, we know it's Palpatine's apartment, there is photographic evidence that it's Palpatine's apartment, so why would Sidious pay his clone a visit and jeapordize his plans when he could have just called him on the phone?

    Actually I'd love for Emos Edud to answer that one.

     
  24. Darth_Howell_III

    Darth_Howell_III Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2002

    Just a thought... maybe the hood is to obscure the fact that the eyes are closed?

    Palpatine is, like, sleepwalking, or something?

    The hood is to keep various people in the Dark, so to speak...?


    ...naaaaah...
     
  25. Mary_Skywalker

    Mary_Skywalker Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Scott3eyez
    It's been pointed out several times now, the post he is looking for has been posted (the second post in the thread, no less), acknowledged by ben_07, and the source provided.

    This is turning into either an excercise in trolling, spamming or both.


    Ummmm?

    Emos isn?t spamming or trolling in any sort, in fact he has a point. There never have been any Official quotes that prove that Sidious is Palpatine.

    He is also right in that people can assume all they want but they haven?t proven that he is the exact same guy. People have become trapped into believing that they are the same guy and it is only their assumptions when viewing the movie that lead them to believe this.

    But as it stands there have been no quotes for Ben 07 to satisfy what he requested!

    Lord_Hydronium
    I'm going to assume you're just trolling, since JMO posted a whole bunch of them on the previous page. Nonetheless, I will take the bait.

    JMO hasn?t posted an Offical quote that proves that Darth Sidious is Palpatine. No matter what one may think.

    However those who think that they have a quote yet say that others are trolling is kind of like *dark kettles* if people know what I mean.

    I think Emos is on to something here!

     
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