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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Loose ends? Unanswered Questions? Contradictions? They won't exist...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Face-Chin-Goo, Feb 5, 2004.

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  1. JediStarMoonstruck

    JediStarMoonstruck Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2002
    In RotJ, when Vader is telling Luke about the emperor and he says "He will show you the true nature of the force.", it seems like Vader thinks that at the end of the night there will be 3 Sith.

    This is my first post in this forum. I thought of something and I thought I would point it out. When Vader talks to the Emperor in EBS, he says Luke would be a powerful ally. The Emperor says Luke would be a great asset. There's no talk of Luke being a Sith.

    In ROTJ, the Emperor says Luke will be turned to the Dark Side of the Force. There's no talk between Vader and the Emperor about making Luke a Sith. What I'm thinking is that the two pretended to each other that they only wanted to make Luke a Dark Jedi, not train him in the ways of the Sith. Privately, they planned to train Luke as a Sith and kill the other so the Rule of Two would still apply.

    I hope I made sense. :)
     
  2. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    In and of itself...yes, you made sense. However, that being said...
    MOYERS: When Darth Vader tempts Luke to come over to the Empire side, offering him all that the Empire has to offer, I am taken back to the story of Satan taking Christ to the mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world, if only he will turn away from his mission. Was that conscious in your mind?

    LUCAS: Yes. That story also has been retold. Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. The gods are constantly tempting. Everybody and everything. So the idea of temptation is one of the things we struggle against, and the temptation obviously is the temptation to go to the dark side. One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies.
    - Bill Moyers Interview

    Vader and Palps were plotting against each other, and they both knew it.
     
  3. JediStarMoonstruck

    JediStarMoonstruck Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2002
    Do you mean both knew the other was planning the other's demise? Neither gave a hint the other knew what was going on. We don't see a lot of the Emperor so maybe he knew (likely did), but I don't think Vader figured Palpatine knew about his betrayal.
     
  4. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    It's in their nature. This is why the "Rule of Two" was created in the first place - because one Sith will try to outnumber/overpower the other with an apprentice.
     
  5. arrowheadpodracer

    arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 9, 2002
    Good quote. That explains it great. Thanks, MeBeJedi.

    edit: but... I still wonder why Vader said those things to Luke. In ESB he is clearly trying to turn Luke against the emperor. In RotJ his words seem to say otherwise. Instead of going to find Luke when he senses him, he reports it and is told to bring Luke before the emperor. He does so, without saying the kinds of things he did in ESB. He only praises the emperor.
    It seems contradictory.
     
  6. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Not a problem. :)

    (BTW, I've been forgetting to put links lately. Here it is. [face_blush] )
     
  7. JediStarMoonstruck

    JediStarMoonstruck Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2002
    I still wonder why Vader said those things to Luke. In ESB he is clearly trying to turn Luke against the emperor. In RotJ his words seem to say otherwise. Instead of going to find Luke when he senses him, he reports it and is told to bring Luke before the emperor. He does so, without saying the kinds of things he did in ESB. He only praises the emperor.
    It seems contradictory.


    That's why I think Vader doesn't think the Emperor knows. I could be wrong.

    Either way, neither the Emperor or Vader talk about making Luke a Sith. Just turning him to the Dark Side and an ally.
     
  8. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    While I'm aware that Lucas did not spell this out, there's a key piece of dialogue you should consider...
    "EMPEROR: Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!
    Vader's "place" was acting as Palpatine's Sith apprentice. This falls right in line with what Lucas said about the Sith taking on apprentices. You can play with the meaning of "ally" all you want, but Lucas' intent is very clear - both Vader and Palps wanted to be master, and take Luke as their apprentice.
    VADER: Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Come with me. It is the only way.
    Vader wants Palps out of the picture, thus making the "apprentice" a "master", who would then take on a new apprentice - again, exactly as Lucas states.

    Hope that makes sense.
     
  9. JediStarMoonstruck

    JediStarMoonstruck Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2002
    Yeah, I know that, but that's when Vader is lying defeated and Luke is coming close to the Dark Side. The Emperor decided then to reveal his plans for Luke when it seemed very likely that he would get rid of Vader and get Luke.

    Edit: I know that both want Luke trained as a Sith and that each want to do it. My point is that they act as if the other doesn't know the other's plan with all their ally talk with no mention of the Sith when they are together. Vader doesn't talk about his plans for Luke with the Emperor and the Emperor doesn't talk about his plans with Vader. That's my point.
     
  10. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Understood. :)
     
  11. arrowheadpodracer

    arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 9, 2002
    I agree that both Vader and the emperor want to turn Luke to the darkside and partner up with him.

    I just dont understand what almost seems to be a change of heart for Vader between "You can destroy the emperor.... Join me and we will rule the galaxy as father and son." in ESB, and "He is your master now." (referring to the emperor) in RotJ.

    Did Vader give up on the father and son idea? I dont think he was just trying to use that as a trick on Bespin, always intending to bring Luke to the emperor.
    Why wouldnt he have given him a similar speech on Endor before they went up to the Death Star? Luke had accepted the fact that Vader was (once ;) )his father, and Luke actually wanted Vader to leave with him. That seems like a good opening for dad. But instead Vader takes Luke to his master.


    Anyway- I dont see how this would be answered in E3, so maybe it doesnt belong in this thread. I apologize for getting so far off topic.



    "Stay on target", :) -
    I'd like to see if there is more to the connection between R2 and Ben. It isnt really a loose end, I just wonder if they'll share a scene where they interact.
    "He claims to be the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi, a resident of these parts...."
    "Come here my little friend./I dont seem to remember ever owning a droid."
    They havent had a whole lot of interaction thus far. Maybe R2 just ends up with the Organa family and never connects directly with Obi-Wan until E4.

    Im not too concerned whether or not they will tie all 6 movies together perfectly. Heck the OT has gaps that just cant be filled. I think they'll make an effort to keep continuity in E3 and it will all work out fine.....
    unless you over-analyze it.
     
  12. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    "Did Vader give up on the father and son idea? Why wouldnt he have given him a similar speech on Endor before they went up to the Death Star? Luke had accepted the fact that he was his father, and he actually wanted Vader to leave with him. That seems like a good opening for dad. But instead Vader takes Luke to his master."

    Well, it would appear Vader accepted the fact that his son didn't want to become a Sith. Hopefully, Ep.III will explain Vader's comment "you don't know the power of the Dark Side". Vader clearly fears Palps for some reason (besides the fact that his boss can forsee the future. ;) ). There must be some reason why Vader chooses to surrender himself to his master - "It is...too late for me, my son." Either he fears retribution from Palps, or he simply gives up on himself (likely, as well as great emotion.)

    "Maybe R2 just ends up with the Organa family and never connects directly with Obi-Wan until E4."

    I find that likely, also. Keep in mind that it was R2 who was accompanied and watched over Padme throughout the beginning of AOTC (landing on Coruscant, the assassination attempt in the apartment.) Clearly, Lucas is showing a relationship with Padme and R2 here, thus explaining how her daughter, Leia, ends up with R2 in ANH, and why she trusts him with very important and sensitive Death Star information.

    The Skywalker women have always relied on R2, and for good reason. ;)
     
  13. GrandAlmightyMaster

    GrandAlmightyMaster Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2003
    I also think Vader accepted the fact that Luke didn't want to be a Sith and I don't think Vader wanted him to be one in the end either. Thats why he stopped Luke from killing Palps.
     
  14. JediStarMoonstruck

    JediStarMoonstruck Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2002
    According to the ROTJ novel, Vader was still thinking of turning Luke to the Sith ways. He was just quiet about because his master was nearer than before. Since the movies don't show us thoughts unless they are spoken, Vader's thoughts wouldn't be in the movie.
     
  15. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "According to the ROTJ novel, Vader was still thinking of turning Luke to the Sith ways."
    To some extent, yes, but he's certainly not made up his mind in this regard. Vader wouldn't turn down the opportunity, should it arise. Nonetheless, he openly considers killing Luke several times throughout the duel.
    "Come with me, Father."

    Vader shook his head. "Ben once thought as you do-"

    "Don't blame Ben for your fall-" Luke took a step closer, then stopped.

    Vader did not move. "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master."

    "I will not turn-you will be forced to destroy me."

    "If that is your destiny." This was not his wish, but the boy was strong-if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no long afford to hold back, as he once had.

    "Search your feelings, Father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."
    Luke watched in horror, as another Rebel ship toppled against the unseeable deflector shield, exploding in a fiery concussion.

    Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined. And still pliable. Not lost yet-either to the sickening, weakly side of the Force, that had to beg for everything it received; or to the Emperor, who feared Luke with reason.

    There was yet time to take Luke for his own-to retake him. To join with him in dark majesty. To rule the galaxy together. It would only take patience and a little wizardry, to show Luke the exquisite satisfactions of the dark way and to pry him from the Emperor's terrified clutch.

    Vader knew Luke had seen it, too-the Emperor's fear. He was a clever boy, young Luke, Vader smiled grimly to himself. He was his father's son.

    The Emperor interrupted Vader's contemplation with a cackled remark to Luke. "As you can see, my young apprentice, the deflector shield is still in place. Your friends have failed! And now?" he raised his spindly hand above his head to mark this moment: "Witness the power of this fully armed and operational battle station." He walked over to the comlink and spoke in a gravelly whisper, as if to a lover. "Fire at will, Commander."[hr]"Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first-training by both Vader and Palpatine-before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy."[hr]"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City-not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."[hr]"You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader warned. His anger was layered, now-he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill the boy who wouldn't fight?then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."[hr]"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning. "Once again, you underestimate the power of the dark side?" [/i][/b][/blockquote]
    And as for Vader keeping his thoughts from Palps...[blockquote][i][b]"Yes, I know," replied the Emperor. "You have done well, Lord Vader?and now I sense you wish to continue your search for the young Skywalker."

    Vader smiled beneath his armored mask. The Emperor always knew the sense of
     
  16. JediStarMoonstruck

    JediStarMoonstruck Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2002
    To some extent, yes, but he's certainly not made up his mind in this regard. Vader wouldn't turn down the opportunity, should it arise.

    I think he had made up his mind. He just was keeping his options open.

    This was not his wish, but the boy was strong-if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no long afford to hold back, as he once had.


    He didn't want to kill Luke, but thought if Luke didn't turn, he would have no choice, but to kill him.

    These are quotes where Vader knows what he wants:

    There was yet time to take Luke for his own-to retake him. To join with him in dark majesty. To rule the galaxy together. It would only take patience and a little wizardry, to show Luke the exquisite satisfactions of the dark way and to pry him from the Emperor's terrified clutch.


    "Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first-training by both Vader and Palpatine-before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy."


    Nonetheless, he openly considers killing Luke several times throughout the duel.

    Yes, when he's emotional and Luke's done something to cause him to get angry.

    And as for Vader keeping his thoughts from Palps...

    Look at the last line:

    The Emperor always knew the sense of what was in his heart; even if he didn't know the specifics. "Yes, my master."


    The Emperor could tell what Vader wanted, but not how Vader wanted it, at least as far as Vader knows. As far as Vader knows, the Emperor knows he wants Luke, but Vader thinks the Emperor doesn't know about him wanting Luke to take his side and for them to overthrow the Emperor to rule together.

    Note I said Vader thinks this. The corpse could know, but Vader not know it.
     
  17. Face-Chin-Goo

    Face-Chin-Goo Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 16, 2002
    I've always thought the exchange between Vader and Palps after Luke & Co. land on Endor's forest moon, was very telling...."I thought I told you to stay on the command ship" Palps scolds Vader, much like Obi-Wan had done years before....then Vader expalins, "my son is with them"....the Emperor is surprised and bothered to see a special connection between father and son...when Vader says "I have felt him"...Palps replies, "strange that I have not" as if to say you two have soemthing brewing don't you, but I'm watching so be careful...he then asks Vader...."are you sure your feelings are clear on this matter"...almost confronting Vader with,...are you up to something, because if you are, I'll know....the thing is he doesn't know....it all goes back, even to Empire when Palps and Vader are discussing a new threat to them and Vader says..."he's just a boy" as if to say he's no worry, we should let him be, almost taking up for his son, hoping he won't have to get involved in it all...or Vader could be wanting Palps to look the other way while he recruits Luke without his knowledge...either way it shows Vader as having his own agenda where Luke is concerned.....I'd say that after years of serving the Emperor, Vader is like he was before when serving the Jedi, he's ready to do his own thing, so in the end Vader makes two journeys, one away from the light, the other towards it.....hope this helps......
     
  18. elfdart

    elfdart Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2001
    Very good quotes about Vader's motives in the throne room.

    As for the "idealistic crusade" bit, keep in mind that Obi-Wan is relating what Owen told HIM. Apparently, Kenobi drops off Luke at the Lars homestead. He shows up years later to give Luke Anakin's lightsabre. Owen tells him "NO!" and tells Obi-Wan that not only is he not going to allow Luke to run off with Ben, but as far as he's concerned, Anakin should have stayed on Tattooine, too. He wouldn't even have to come out and say the words "damned fool idealistic crusade" for Obi-Wan Kenobi to infer what Owen was getting at. There is no contradiction here at all.
     
  19. openmind

    openmind Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Face, that was great! To the point, and funny. My view of it as well :D
     
  20. Tatooine_Fireman

    Tatooine_Fireman Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 16, 2003
    Came in a little late in the discussion, but;
    About the Rule of Two:
    After the Sith were destroyed in the Sith Wars, Darth Bane, the only surviving Sith Lord decided to take on only one apprentice. If the master died, the apprentice would be the master, and would take on a new apprentice.
    I hope this isn't a spoiler, but according to GL, Anakin will turn to the Dark Side by choice, not by seduction. I think this has to do with what he says in ESB about "this destructing conflict". We also know that Anakin/Vader doesn't really like politics; hence his conversation about politics with Padme in AOTC. He wants to rule the Galaxy in his own way. Maybe that's the reason why he joins Palpatine. Later on, when he found out he had a son, he wants to get rid of Palpatine, and rule the Galaxy with his son. But...Palpatine wants Luke as well. Maybe Palpatine gets rid of Dooku in Episode III, when he realizes Anakin is the stronger one. He realizes Luke is (probably) stronger than Vader, so he wants to get rid of Vader as well.

    Phheeeww, quite a theory...
     
  21. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    " Came in a little late in the discussion"

    Agreed. We're up to the "Rule of Twelve" now. :p
     
  22. arrowheadpodracer

    arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 9, 2002
    *frantically waves hand in the air*

    OH!, OH! , OH!! [face_shocked]
    I finally thought of one!

    A "loose end/contradiction", I mean.


    "That boy is our last hope."
    "No, there is another."


    That always made me think Obi-Wan didnt know about Leia. Thats possible, if Yoda is on one side of the door, and Obi-Wan is on the other, but from what Ive read in the "just the facts" threads- Yoda, Bail and Obi-Wan seem to have a few scenes together.
    That makes me think they're all on the same page. Theyre in on the same plan. So, it seems Obi-Wan would know Bail had a Skywalker kid.
    (of course we wont KNOW until next May but until then)



    I guess my question is,

    If Obi-Wan knows about Leia, does that line still work for you guys?
     
  23. Tatooine_Fireman

    Tatooine_Fireman Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 16, 2003
    Rule of twelve...Does have a ring to it... ;)
    Well, the "there is another" line actually never worked for me. When OB1 sees Leia's hologram, I always thought OB1 knew that that was Anakin's daughter. In that scene, he really seems to think something like "Well, destiny finally came back to bite me in the @$$". Since he doesn't know about Leia in ESB, I think/hope Yoda, Bail and Padme will keep it a secret for OB1.
     
  24. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    First of all...
    ...In [the first draft], there's no hint that there may be another hope if Luke fails. In the revised second draft, a few lines of dialogue were added as Luke's X-wing disappears inthe sky: Yoda says: "Now we must find another." Ben replies: "He is our only hope." And in the third draft, after Luke takes off, Ben says: "The boy is our last hope." Yoda replies: "No...we must search for another." - Irvin Kershner: The Annotated Screenplays

    My feeling about Luke being the last hope was really done in an effort to make sure that he was in some jeopardy, that he might not succeed. I was trying to set up subliminally in the audience's mind that something is going on here, that he could fail. And if he fails, 'there is another hope'. So the audience is say 'Don't go, finish your training. - George Lucas: The Annotated Screenplays

    Secondly, I was always under the impression that he didn't know, but that remains to be seen in Ep.III.
     
  25. JediStarMoonstruck

    JediStarMoonstruck Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2002
    I think he did know, but maybe was thinking on the terms of how long Yoda had to live. Obi-Wan's a Force ghost, surely he knew how long Yoda would live. If not, he could've been guessing. My point is Luke was trained by Yoda and Leia was not. If Luke dies, they could bring Leia to Yoda, but she would get limited training and might not be of any help. In Obi-Wan's view, Luke is the last hope they have due to his training.
     
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