Lord of the Rings: Lucas's vindication

This is an excellent discussion.

Many years to concieve, limitless effects capabilities and the number one effects gruop at hand, a franchise that would pack the house off of its name alone. And we are getting garbage (my opinion). The STARWARS prequels could and should have been easily the second coming of its first visit. Lucas is indeed making some strange moves. Some so distastful to myself that it seems like its a concious effort to keep fans going "what the.."

It is too late to rectify EP1 and whatever was missed in EP2 and i hope Lucas takes a long look at LOTR and even MATRIX and give the last movie some epic wieght and awe to it cause it has none. Why am i watching LOTR and getting great acting and drama along side adventure and special effects. This should be STARWARS giving me this feel. Why am i blown out of my socks by action sequences in the MATRIX but sat thru an episode of my favorite saga without a single flintch. I pray EP3 will move upward as being a triumph and redeption because LOTR is the starwars of this era. It is not only a rich epic but it modestly outclasses the prequels effortlessly. The two cannot be compared due to the fact of thier content. One is a tuna sandwich and the other is a steak dinner with red wine and a gorgeous date.

 

NeoBaggins, I think nothign has struck such a deep blow into the Star Wars franchise as the release of FOTR. It was the moment where Millions of people around the globe lost all of a sudden interest in Star Wars since LOTR moved them much more. I agree that comparing SW to LOTR is like comparing a Fiat Cinquecento with a Ferrari and LOTR is in every respect a more mature and intelligent work but there's still room for SW. Funny Space sagas with funny robots, blobs and crickets will always have a place, just like sometimes you just want to go out, drink too much and have a silly evening of talking rubbish. We need it and that's why films like AOTC still have their place but the elevated status SW once had is gone forever.

 

Finally, someone with the boulders to say so. I will never forget the feeling i had leaving the theatre after seeing EP1. I was hurt and confused and chose to walk around with a half smerk trying to convince myself that i liked it. To think of myself not liking a STARWARS movie, let alone one 20 years later brand new, was a ridiculous thought within itself. I hardly put it into the dvd player and iv learned not to blindly folow Lucas and place myself in denial about this new trilogy. Its going to end badly. Theres little room for anything great unless he plans a 4hour movie.

We still have the ot which i hope will come to dvd perhaps after the last installment. We defenantly have the rings trilogy to cherish and we can watch reloaded and revolutions all the way thru without feeling like we returned to the theatre and unpaused reloaded after several months of being in the kitchen making a snack.

I guess what im tryimg to say is, when its all over what will we have left. No more ring movies, the story is told except for the prequel story "the hobbit" which after seeing the trilogy would come off like the ewok tv movie. No more STARWARS, but after seeing what LuLu did with these, would we really want more. Matrix hints at more but that will turn into a money drive. So, what epic fantasy will be as big, how long before the next screen phenomenon.

Time, will tell.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and i hope Lucas takes a long look at LOTR and even MATRIX and give the last movie some epic wieght and awe to it cause it has none. Why am i watching LOTR and getting great acting and drama along side adventure and special effects. This should be STARWARS giving me this feel. Why am i blown out of my socks by action sequences in the MATRIX but sat thru an episode of my favorite saga without a single flintch. I pray EP3 will move upward as being a triumph and redeption because LOTR is the starwars of this era. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Siiiggghhhh.... Well, your username says it all. And my signature says it all. SW is not LOTR. It never was, and it never will be. If the PT was like LOTR, the style wouldnt match the OT at all!! Everything would be way too important, way too emotionaly over the top, and that just wouldnt match with the OT. It is one story. THey have to match. He cant do certain things just to please an audience whose tastes have changed. He has to stick with the style that he started with in 1977.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The two cannot be compared due to the fact of thier content. One is a tuna sandwich and the other is a steak dinner with red wine and a gorgeous date. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

And a tuna sandwhich is much healthier.

 

We are talking about apples and oranges here.
SW was/is a movie, will always be a movie.
Tokien's saga was/will always first be a book.

Lucas=filmmaker
Tolkien=writer

As much as the two fields may touch they are distinct disciplines. Jackson had a book to work from. Lucas had his vision.
This is not to say that Jackson didn't do a masterful job in translating text to vision. He has.

Lucas on the other hand has not had the opportunity to put his vision into text directly and has relied on his visual skills to tell his story, allowing others to embellish it with text. He will be the first to tell you he's not a writer.

Needless to say the the two results are different. That difference though, hasn't stopped anyone from wanting one to be like the other, myself included.

I want the richness and depth of Tolkien's world in the SW Saga, but wanting it doesn't make it so. It will never be there because the creator although insightful in many ways, didn't want it layered that deeply.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NeoBaggins, I think nothign has struck such a deep blow into the Star Wars franchise as the release of FOTR. It was the moment where Millions of people around the globe lost all of a sudden interest in Star Wars since LOTR moved them much more.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The first blow came from THE MATRIX, but yes, LOTR really made it even worse for SW. But, the backlash against REVOLUTIONS is just what SW needs to get the popularity back that it deserves. In a perfect world, ROTK will be a bit of a letdown, and episode 3 will have 2005 all to itself to wow audiences. And I can guarantee you that episode 3 will be the best of the prequels.

>>>>>>>>>>and LOTR is in every respect a more mature and intelligent work<<<<<<<<<

A good number of people would debate that including me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> but the elevated status SW once had is gone forever. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I disagree. I think the franchise will make a comeback starting in 2005. By the end of the decade, people will evaluate the prequels in a more fair light.

 

THey have to match. He cant do certain things just to please an audience whose tastes have changed. He has to stick to the style that he started with in 1977.

For a start, they don't match. There's a lot of inconsistencies between the two.

And our tastes haven't changed at all since 1977. That's just the point. It's just that GL has made a PT that is totally different to that of the OT. It's the PT Star Wars films that have changed, not the audience's tastes. The PT are absolutely nothing like the OT.

Why GL must dumb down the PT Star Wars films is beyond me! Someone said it was to attract the kiddies. Well, I was 6 years old when I first saw ANH, and I became a fan! So why, in all of mighty heaven, would GL make the new Star Wars films infantile, especially seeing how much more advanced modern kids are.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>For a start, they don't match. There's a lot of inconsistencies between the two.

And our tastes haven't changed at all since 1977. That's just the point. It's just that GL has made a PT that is totally different to that of the OT. It's the PT Star Wars films that have changed, not the audience's tastes. The PT are absolutely nothing like the OT.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

In my opinion, they are the same in the way that they need to be and different in the way that they need to be. The level of emotion is the same and the characters depths are the same. The dialoge is the same quality, though not as flashy. THe level of acting is the same. The corniness is the same., which is what is important. You cant have scenes like in LOTR, where everything goes in slow motion and pauses on the grief on peoples after one of thier companions died, and have Hobbits crying every 15 minutes, and have everything be too important. That is not SW. The PT is SW.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>Why GL must dumb down the PT Star Wars films is beyond me! Someone said it was to attract the kiddies<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Who said he was dumbing them down? They are every bit the same in depth as the OT movies. Now, he made TPM a more lighthearted SW movie to contrast with an episode 3 that was going to be darker than even TESB. He also wanted it to be the Hobbit of the SW saga. But that doesnt mean he dumbed it down.

 

I never saw any corn in ANH or ESB. I saw a little bit of very light humour, but never any juggling Jar-Jars.

And the acting was good in ANH and ESB, unless that is you think Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford, Alec Guiness and Peter Cushing aren't/weren't good actors?

Just in atmosphere and looks alone the PT has changed as compared to the OT. Wereas the OT had a certain gritty realism, the PT looks "plastic" and unconvincing.

It looks to me like GL is too busy trying to explain where everything from the OT comes from when making the PT, rather than concentrating on actually telling a story. C3PO being made by Anakin is just an example of a shoehorned explanation to "us poor dumb fans". Now why do we need to know exactly where R2, 3PO and even Palpatine come from? Why do we need a diagram drawn for us to where every OT character originally comes from? To be honest, if I wanted a lecture, I'd go back to school to get one.

And in all his eagerness to "explain" everything in the PT, he forgot a lot of the things he put in the original films, not least that it was Yoda that taught Obi-Wan, not TPM's last minute invention, Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

"Your username says it all."

Wasnt always like that. Oh well. And nowhere did i imply that STARWARS should be as heavy as LOTR.

Lucas executed a unique balance in the earlier films. Drama and comic relief, muppets and a believably performed love relationship, and sci-fi adventure. So yes, starwars is not LOTR but thier are elements that need that richness. If Anakins fate is displayed for the tragedy it is SUPPOSED to be, what Lucas says it is, it would defenatly need emotional wieght to move us such as shown in LOTR. If not for that aspect of the saga alone. If we believe Anakin can become the worse villin of all time it wont matter when 3p0 syas "This is such a drag." or seing yoda flopping around with a lightsabre. It would be balanced. Extremes but balanced nonetheless. Look at jedi. There are annoying ewoks yet there is the rich performane of the emperor. He did it then, he should do it for ep3.

Dont lie to yourselves. You know you dont want it to suck and for it not to it has to have a certain seriousness and richness applied to the fall of Ani aspects of the story. No matter what.

 

For a start, they don't match. There's a lot of inconsistencies between the two.

They do match very well I might add.

TPM was before the dark times. AOTC was starting to go into the dark times. Ep3 will be in the dark times.

It's just that GL has made a PT that is totally different to that of the OT. It's the PT Star Wars films that have changed, not the audience's tastes. The PT are absolutely nothing like the OT.

They take place in two different time areas. One that starts out in good times and goes into drak times.

Why GL must dumb down the PT Star Wars films is beyond me! Someone said it was to attract the kiddies. Well, I was 6 years old when I first saw ANH, and I became a fan! So why, in all of mighty heaven, would GL make the new Star Wars films infantile, especially seeing how much more advanced modern kids are.

SW has always been for familys. It has always been for young and old alike. Not just for one group or for the group that saw the 1st one and so on.


Dont lie to yourselves. You know you dont want it to suck and for it not to it has to have a certain seriousness and richness applied to the fall of Ani aspects of the story. No matter what.

What ?

 

In other words. When we get to the meat of the saga which is supposed to be the fall of Ani and the last movie...

It better be good. Undertsand that?

 

It better be good. Undertsand that?

It will be good.

 

The interesting thing is that STAR WARS is more or less a Tolkien rip-off mixed with some Western, Kurosawa and some fun characters like Han Solo.

 

The interesting thing is that STAR WARS is more or less a Tolkien rip-off mixed with some Western

No it's not, and before any one trys to sya but they both have the same type charactes. I would like to pint out that there are storys that came out long before LOTR that used those types of characters.

 

No juggling clown like Jar-Jars in ANH or ESB. No sloppy acting or dialogue in ANH or ESB. No Dexter Jettsters in 50's American style canteens in ANH or ESB. No badly orchastrated mindless battles in ANH or ESB. No badly concieved love stories (putrid unrealistic dialogue) in ANH or ESB.

 

In my opinion, the love story of AOTC was absolutely brilliant. It was so Darth Vader.

 

">>>>>>>>>>>>> but the elevated status SW once had is gone forever. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"

this,like most things said in this thread ,is projected agression.. just ignore it.


Different cultures respect things more differently than others..think about it

personally, it makes me sick to see the PT bashers , or people who think starwars is Mediocre sign on here and say the things they do.
I'm not going to even start to comment on all the selfish and clumsy posts that obviously post first, think later but in the end i suppose this proves the point:

'Critisism is a small price to pay for success'

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>The interesting thing is that STAR WARS is more or less a Tolkien rip-off mixed with some Western, Kurosawa and some fun characters like Han Solo.<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This is why I cant bash LOTR too much. Lucas did get the themes of SW pretty much from LOTR, but he took those themes and presented them in a completely different way- a way I prefer much more. But I hope that statement wasnt meant to be negative against Lucas. Everybody is ripping off from everybody. Those themes have existed long before Tolkien wrote LOTR.

 

Now dont get me wrong, LOTR certainly has its merits. It does have a great epic quality to it, and the cinematography is fantastic, and it is well directed. I really dont hate it any where near as much as my signature would indicate. I guesss I am just frustrated by the LOTR praise that people use to bash the prequels. It is very unfair, and the prequels deserve just as much popularity as LOTR. Unfortunately, the premise of the story just isnt for me. Neither is its atmosphere. I cant relate to any of the characters at all. But I can relate to most of the characters in all the SW movies.

I cant relate to any of the hobbits at all. I cant relate to Aragon much except for his love for Arwen. Its funny, because the only thing about LOTR that LOTR gushers seem to hate is the subplot between Arwen and Aragon, because supposedly it wasnt a strong plot point in the book, or didnt exist at all. But it was one of the few things about LOTR that I did like. Those scenes where Arwen was imagining Arogon's future death of natural causes was gratifying for me.

I just cant identify with the problems these characters are having. And thier lives just dont seem to parallel my own life at all. A big problem I have is, what type of problems do the Hobbits have at the beginning of the movie. THey dont seem to have any, except for the fact that they have this evil ring that they have to take back to Mount Doom to destroy (YAAWWWNNN).What are Gandalf's problems? I guess I can identify some with Gollum. BUt What are Sauromon's motives for joining Sauron, except for the fact that he is a coward and doesnt beleive that Sauron can be defeated. And what are Sauron's motives? People criticise the prequels for not citing the Seperatists' motives or the Trade Federation's motives, but I think they do a good job of atleast conveying thier motives.

In TPM, we have the characters already struggling with issues, and we identify with them because of that. We have Anakin who has dreams of being a Jedi, who wants to be free. We have Padme who is having her planet blockaded. We have Quigon who is sort of a maverick Jedi, who doesnt like the fact that the Jedi always have to follow the rules everysingle time. We have Obiwan's conflict with Quigon and Anakin. We have Anakin's loss for his mother. We have Palpatine and his motivations for taking over the republic. And these things continue right tthrough the subsequent movies.

I identify so much with Darth Vader, because he struggles with the same issues that I struggle with. I do not identify with Frodo at all.

And then, with these characters I dont identify with at all, who dont seem to have any of the same problems that I do, Peter Jackson then goes and makes everything so artificially important. He makes his characters cry every 15 minutes, and I'm like, "WHAT?" Everything is so emotionally over the top. I have heard from book purists that this type of emotion is what Tolkien wanted, but in my opiniion it just makes Peter Jackson look like a hack (which I know he's not). Adam Bertocci said it best: "Its as if Peter Jackson is standing in front of the screen saying, 'Look! My characters are sad! This is a very sad moment! YOu should be sad too!! Be sad!'"

However, in contrast, SW takes issues that I really do identify with very much, but keeps them emotionally in perspective. It presents the dialogue in a realisticly stoic way, relying on the subtleness of the characters, the oustanding visuals, and the terrific sound track to carry the film the rest of the way. For me, that just strikes a much better balance.

 

SW was/is a movie, will always be a movie.
Tokien's saga was/will always first be a book.

Lucas=filmmaker
Tolkien=writer

Great point.
I think because of that, anything wrong with Star Wars gets blamed on Lucas and anything wrong with LOTR isnt Jacksons fault.

GL gets crap for everything because he's responsible for everything.
Jackson is re-telling someone elses story that he already knows people love and has a huge following. Well, the verdict is in and yes, he's done a fantastic job.
Too bad its not really "his".

 

who cares? Since when do directors get judged on whether their films are based on original stories or not? Stanley Kubrick never filmed an original story in his life, all his films are based on stories or novels. Hitchcok never came up with a story himself either, does that make him anything less but one of the greatest artists in cinema history?
What matters at the end is only the quality of the film you're watching. Whether the story was written by Tolkien, Jackson, Harry Birnbaum or Joe Sixpack at the end isn't really important.

 

I don't think all Star Wars movies are mediocre. ANH and ESB are two of the best films ever made. That's why I'm here; that and to view my opinions on what Lucas could have done to make the others a lot better. And in some cases, he still could correct at least some of the faults.

 

"Now dont get me wrong, LOTR certainly has its merits. ."

before im judged i will say LOTR Definatly has it's merits without a doubt. the cinematography is awe-inspiring. and effort in these films are quiet great.

The only thing is i don't like them. i was bored stupid with teh first one and i thought the second one was alright..simply.

and i have this theory about the acting and how different cultures accept this. PM if you must know but it's just MY theory.

I wouldn't say that LOTR has sotlen SW thunder recently ( let time tell ) but i suppose ,even though i don't enjoy LOTR, it's 1 of the 3 great movie franchises for different intended audiences which one attracts more of a wider audience which is a hell of a job to please all. for me, and a high majority of people, it works and is memorable.

forget the internet geeks cause this is a saga which high respected incorparates respect


the term 'Internet Geeks' being humourous but trying to get the bovious out of the way