I am starting a new thread as I didn't want to derail another discussion, on the PT boards; it is about, essentially, story-telling. Specifically, why I feel that Star Wars doesn't work as a coherent story (ie the 'saga', Episodes 1-6). PiettsHat just to let you know that, as I said I would address the points you made in a new thread. here it is. In terms of continuing a story (re TESB and ROTJ), and telling the story as it was before (Episodes 1-3) then it makes sense that all of these stories can be joined together, are coherent with one another. What I see with the various Star Wars episodes is...almost a desire to subvert 'what the viewer is expecting'. That's fine, to a degree; it's good to be surprised every now and then but... there's a level of subversion whereby the stories no longer match. If the writer can't be bothered with his own markers, why should I, the viewer, be? I should point out this is not a rant against the PT per sé, the subversion starts much earlier. Some of it is down to the perceived requirement of the individual movie being made (requiring a cliff-hanger ending, shock, 'poetic moment' etc.), some of it because the creator decides he wants to address a particular issue (the 'tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' as theme, for example) and part of that is to re-introduce themes that were previously dropped. I think the 'saga' is incoherent; it simply does not work for me as a whole story. Part of that is down to the PT being set up in order for Anakin to fall. More than that, I believe that because Lucas is/was a fan of Campbell and his ideas of mythology he , having described Anakin's tale as a 'tragedy', understands that Anakin must be destined to that fall. This, to me, undermines the message of choice that was so important to the OT. In order to bring it about he has had to subvert a great deal of what we are lead to understand from the OT. I'll pick this up by addressing @PiettsHat's points Being offered a 'lastminute.com' deal that he is lead to believe is the only chance he has of 'saving' Padmé is not being seduced by the darkside. I would expect to see him be drawn to what the darkside can offer him. In terms of that his destruction of Dooku is perhaps more fitting. As you say, his anger gave him strength; but the strength to do what? To execute a defenceless opponent in cold blood, ultimately. His anger gave him the strength to slaughter a community of Sandpeople, including the women and children - but these aren't offered as his turn (despite that in ROTJ we are shown that Luke is in danger of turning by striking down Vader in anger...) instead a calculated choice to submit himself to Sidious' teachings is his turn. I just don't buy this. he says those things at the height of his darkside hysteria. He knows that the only reason there wasn't peace is because Sidious had made it so. He knows that everything that Sidious has told him is a lie; that he has destroyed the Jedi as he always intended to. he knows that the Empire hasn't really brought peace, but that the war was brought about by Sidious. If not then, the man's just an out and out idiot. And referring back; his anger gave him the 'strength' to kill his beloved Padmé. In what way could he believe his anger is a good thing, or that the Empire (naturally the extension of Sidious, the Emperor) could be a good thing? His being tricked into the actions he took just does not correspond with the Vader from the OT. I don't see this at all. In fact it was Luke's idealistic belief in his father that almost drags him to the darkside. When Vader refuses to be the 'father' that Luke desires him to be he lashes out in anger against Vader. What saves him is his recognition of what the Jedi have been telling him. he doesn't refuse to kill Vader because it is his father, who he believes is good, but because to do so would be to act in anger and with hatred. He refuses to give in to his darkside. That theme is subverted because, with the PT and the advent of the 'tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' then it becomes all about Anakin and his choice - and so it appears as if it is Luke's faith in his father that saves him. He agrees to killing the Jedi at the Temple because he (without any evidence to that effect, just another dullard moment in his 'turn', imo) agrees that the Jedi will set out to kill them both and then turn on the Senators. We're given no reason as to why he 'believes' this, because he knows that the reason Windu was about to kill Sidious was because he was the Sith Lord who has been behind ebverything; not because he represents the Senate. But, as you have said, he is doing these things because he wants the power to save Padmé, the rest of what he says makes no sense in terms of an idea that he believes in. How does he understand that killing the Jedi, who have been fighting the Separatists alongside the army, would end the war - unless he knows that Sidious is behind the Separatists; why else would they have been expecting him? Once he learns he has killed Padmé then everything he did what he did for has gone. He, if that is the reason for his turn, must now understand how utterly meaningless it has all been; If he knows all of that, how can he believe in the Empire and in the darkside? it has done nothing but take everything from him. For all the reasons I gave above,I find the idea that the ROTS Vader/Anakin is the same devoted Imperial actor in the OT incoherent. No, but I wanted to get an idea of what you see here. What you appear to see (and what I have been suggesting) is that Anakin seems to get especially cold treatment. You don't believe that the Jedi Council would be so cold toward Obi-Wan as a child? Why not? Why were they so uncaring toward a small boy from a distant planet, recently removed from his mother? It doesn't seem to match the behaviour of Yoda towards the younglings in his class in AOTC. This is exactly what I mean; the Jedi are portrayed here, against the grain, counter to what we are lead to believe about them and how they would act toward such an individual, as cold and aloof toward Anakin in particular. the scene is set up so that we can understand Anakin as feeling isolated, regardless of how that fits with the characters involved.