Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.
We should have gotten a Turr Phennir POV.
Just finished reading about the assassination attempt in Sacrifice along with Jacen's listening of the audio from the secret meeting b/t the heads of state.....a couple of issues for me (I believe you don't need the full story at the end of the book for these issues)
1) what is so wrong about the secret meeting in and of itself? Jacen and GAG all seem to think it's the ultimate evil of Omas to do it, but he's trying to negotiate a peace....is it just bc he didn't announce it to others? I'm sure that would have been better to tell others but not telling them just doesn't seem to rise to the level of "TRAITOR, let's remove him from office"
2) during the meeting, what was discussed didn't seem to be traitorous at all, they just discussed what each side needed to do to end hostilities and what they could do to show support to each other, so shouldn't have the rest of the GAG, Ben included then felt reservations about going through with the whole thing but nobody showed hesitation at all even after hearing the discussion
3) when Gejjen did finally say that Jacen and Niathal should be assassinated, it seemed to me that Omas said he didn't want that done and not to tell him about it at all...I know it wasn't a hard "no, don't do it or it's off", but it still came off to me like he was against it...so why didn't the plan simply change to just take out Gejjen for that and not go after Omas anymore at least among the GAG people like Ben....
and I get Jacen to a degree, he just wants to take over at this point bc he thinks he can run things better, he'll use anything to get himself to that position, but why doesn't the rest of GAG and Ben especially show signs of doubt, even in the moment???
I will say this too, I'm once again tired of Jacen throwing out that somehow this is a good thing that he's doing and I know it's a lie he's convincing himself of, but it's a little grating having to read it over and over again knowing it's pure crap.....
Maybe Jacen was just looking for a reason to overthrow the government-any sort of fig leaf would have done.
Secret negotiations with the corellians fit the bill.
Did they not cover literally every single character in LotF: The Missing Chapters of Invincible?
As to Gejjen and Omas - Omas gave his blessing for the murder of Niathal and Solo. He had zero intention of stopping it, he even planned who he would replace Solo with. For the two of them to laugh about it, it is hardly an aside. It is all Gejjen wanted from the treaty anyway.
We as omniscient readers also know that Gejjen simply wanted time to consolidate and hit Coruscant with everything he had. So Ben killing Gejjen prevented that from happening, in a kind of 'two wrongs don't make a right but if he hadn't done the wrong a bigger wrong would have happened so we're okay with two wrongs here' moment.
Well for the political standpoint of getting a deal with Corellia-getting rid of Jacen and Niathal makes sense. As their actions greatly affected the second galactic civil war.
So killing them basically placates the corellians.
I don't see why Omas couldn't just get rid of them politically though firing them or otherwise.
Maybe he already feared a coup and figured disposing of them would ensure the corellians were satisfied of his good faith.
Huh. I didn't think of that. Kind of like what happens with Poe in TLJ. You're so right.
It's the Pontius Pilate issue, in a way. "I wash my hands of this but won't say you're wrong." It leaves one's hands almost as red as the actual murderer. He wasn't planning to tell anyone of Gejjen's desire.
Should Omas have been offed? No. Like @Darth Invictus, I think Jacen wanted any excuse to twist the government to his desires.
I agree with this. I acknowledged it in my post. My questions were more directed at the lack of reconsideration by the other members of GAG that overheard it. Yet they are all still, yea traitors, let's go ahead with the mission.
Please read p. 219 where all this occurs. If you read the full text of the conversation, Omas says he doesn't want them to be killed. Yes, Gejjen says they can take care of it, and Omas doesn't say no, he says don't tell him. That can be seen as him okaying it, or it could be that he's saying there's nothing he can do to stop him, but he's already let him know his feelings on it above so don't tell him anything further bc of deniability, which whether you like it or not, is a necessity for a head of state. And it's Gejjen who offers the replacement, and yes they laugh, but to me, I'm not sure the laugh is as evil as it appears. I figure Omas's is basically just acknowledging the replacement would be better and it mostly is a reflex laugh probably (you know those times u know u shouldn't but u do), but it doesn't mean he's okay with Gejjen's way of replacing.
This comes to the closest to a good explanation to me as an analogy. I still think it's a little different simply bc Pilate did in fact personally give in, he gave Jesus to the Jews....I'm not sure anything Omas did ever told Gejjen to go ahead with it.
Well I think Jacen's claim here is that you have the chief of state in negotiations with arguably a rebel and a terrorist to kill or otherwise remove two GA officials.
It would be like Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis having a private conversation to have General Grant and Sherman killed or politically removed.
For the Union side-such a secret conversation would be seen as high treason and treachery of the highest order.
I can see this opinion if you see the main part of their secret meeting being the discussion of assassination...I just see the main part being the earlier discussion of what is necessary for peace, then Gejjen tags the assassination on at the end, and Omas responds as I have already discussed....so the peace part stands out more to me and that should have given the other GAG members/Ben pause in my opinion
Hey, I'm about to start the last 100 pages or so, and Mara has decided to go face Jacen. I'm really knotted up in the stomach over what's about to happen......
1) I'm a little disappointed firstly just bc it seems Mara's gotten her butt kicked quite often throughout NJO to here, and she was a Emperor's Hand, she's supposed to be a super bada** fighter but I'm worried Jacen will own her which upsets me
2) So please someone tell me, it's a good fight, and it's believable and you're left with a WOW factor, not just a well that blew and now Mara's.... and once again I guess Jacen is just that OP
It's a good fight.
Mara has the upper hand and Jacen has to resort to trickery(a force illusion to be exact to defeat her. Also the dialogue at the end of the fight is very moving and memorable.
well just read it.....my thoughts
1) it was a good fight and of course it isn't going to be exactly what you wanted (especially since I'd love to have seen Mara kill him and that wasn't going to happen here)
2) it's what's done but I do admit I didn't care for the OP power Jacen pulled out after Mara brought the roof down on him, while Force push is a power, after mentioning Jacen is so injured from it, I'm not sure I accept he could use that power to that degree in that moment, but I also know once the writer had Mara do that, she had to write something like that bc Jacen couldn't die there, so....
3) the illusion is very well done on Jacen's part and I can totally buy that as well as the dart, it feels like it kept Mara intact and Jacen had to wuss out of killing her legit which I'm a fan of in a fight b/t them...I don't buy Jacen is as OP as he thinks he is
4) the speech isn't moving to me bc it's mostly lies, yes Jacen believes it but it's just utter horrible to think like Jacen thinks - that what he's doing is "for the best" so to speak - and like I've said, I'm sorta tired of hearing him say it over and over....own being the bad guy!!!
all of this being said, this sucks....Mara is one of my favorite EU characters of all time and now she is gone!!! hopefully now there will finally be more attempts at including Jaina in the story though since she's my 2nd fav and they've done little with her so far!!!!
Mara's final words are the moving ones.
"You...think you've won....but Luke will crush you....and I refuse to let you ruin the future...for my...Ben."
Okay, review time for Sacrifice.....not much to say really, I actually enjoyed this book quite a bit, it read well, and the main story was very interesting....my issues (which are always easier to discuss anyway)
1) I'm still not all that enthralled by how Omas was taken down.....just didn't feel real to me like I said, it seemed very grey and yet everyone was on board hook, line, and sinker and even the people of the GA didn't care....
2) okay, I'm still bored by the Mandalorian stuff.....if all the story that ties them in is just Mandalorian involvement in the war and Fett coming back after Jacen, then my question is this, how necessary is all this other stuff of following Fett around?, wouldn't it be just as good for Fett to be unheard of and then suddenly show up to attack Jacen, or at least just pick up his story of trailing Jacen......do we really care about Mandalore politics?? I know I'm cool with just showing them in the war at some point, I don't really feel the need to answer the question of how they got to that point, I mean we're not getting a lot of background on Bothans even though they're in the war but I'm fine with that.....so to me it just feels like I have like 1/3 of each Traviss book to read on this topic when all I need is 1/3 of one book of total material on this subject at most....that's a lot of extra pages that I have to read but aren't necessary and makes me a little frustrated
3) same sorta goes with Alema......I was told her purpose was tied to the story....just as a foil to Leia??? I mean she wasn't even in this book.....so not sure why she's being drug out except as a recurring character (who isn't that interesting to me at least anyway), and this isn't really a complaint from this book since she wasn't in it, but I still just don't buy her feasibility in a fight with all her injuries....
4) My worst problem with the book is probably right at the end.....and it's a little hard to explain but I have a huge problem with how they do Luke at the end of the book....now me personally, I have no problem with what Mara tried to do to protect Ben, I have no problem with what Luke did to avenge Mara, h/e Luke's philosophy def. would be against what he did to Lumiya so I hate that they did that to his character....and to me the proof is in how it upset him afterwards, I just don't want to see that in my hero - the shining light
5) Another issue, maybe it just seems like it's staring me in the face b/c as the reader I'm privy to what actually happens....but with Jacen in the area, Ben knowing what he knows now about Jacen/Lumiya relationship, Ben being lost with Mara's body, and Jacen being the one to find him, it feels like the answer that Jacen killed Mara is staring Ben in the face...and the same goes for Luke once Ben tells him that Lumiya wasn't the one b/c she was trapped in the ship by him.......yet Luke decides he'll search to find out who it was....I'd just like for the story not feel like it requires the protagonists to be blind/stupid/neutered until the plot says it's time to stop the bad guy
6) Finally, and once again, maybe this will be answered in the next book, but it seemed Jacen picked his Sith name out of the blue with no reason or tie-in to anything....I just figured there would be one.....
The payoff to #2 and #5 is to come, and the complaints of #1 and #4 are very common, @OutsiderJediSam
One point I want to make regarding Sacrifice is that Mara willingly chooses to go into darkness-she foregoes her Jedi restraint and light side conduct and returns to becoming an assassin yet not a dispassionate assassin-a mother protecting her boy sort of assassin.
Jacen ultimately kills her in self defense-Mara did not act like a Jedi.
As for Luke going after Lumiya-it does make me think of Luke in TLJ-or in short what does it take to drive Luke to the edge and off the edge.
There are hints in LOTF of what a dark Luke would be like-what would drive Luke Skywalker to the dark side, how terrifying would a dark Luke be? What could drive Luke into darkness?
Lumiya doesn't drive him that far but she pushes him to the edge-thematically the duel ends with Lumiya over an edge. Lumiya has pushed and driven and stretched Luke nearly to the breaking point.
So much so Luke refuses to go after Caedus for some sort of dark side taint-he knows that going after Caedus could push him into darkness. Despite it being probably the smarter tactical option-after all who would have gone after Caedus if Jaina failed? Instead Luke sends Jaina to avoid be pushed off the metaphorical edge.
Jacen may have killed Mara in self-defense but Luke did not act like a Jedi when he killed Lumiya.
His execution of a disarmed enemy is very similar to his father's execution of Count Dooku. Lumiya was unarmed and defeated. There was no reason for Luke to kill her at that point. The Jedi thing to do would have been for Luke to take Lumiya captive and put her on trial.
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I don't really agree with this view of Jacen using self-defense as a justification. I mean yes, he's gonna defend himself, anyone would, h/e it's his own actions that have brought this upon him. He's definitely at fault for Mara coming after him. Also, he didn't have to follow her to the surface of the planet to continue the fight, even if Mara wanted him to follow her. At that point, it definitely (in my opinion) became a straight up fight. So, I personally don't think that qualifies as self-defense in the sense of Jacen being innocent.
I didn't even make that connection from ROTS, but wow, you are absolutely correct. Absolutely thought the same on Luke should have taken her alive though with his view personally. JW, in SW EU, why aren't there portable prison force fields like what Dooku used on Obi-Wan in AOTC to capture people especially Force users, just a thought. It'd work really well in situations like Luke vs. Lumiya. Plus, I didn't get Luke's comment, but I think it was from the comics past that I didn't read, and the comment was ruined to me the moment Luke decapitated her anyway. I mean, what good is not letting someone fall if instead u just decapitate them. Plus, why would Luke say that if he was not in love with her anymore and angry at her for killing his wife. It's like a Hyde/Jeykll thing, Luke needs to still be in control and Luke, but also be out of control and giving into the dark side.
That's good, but still, the payoff to #2 isn't just what I posted I worry it is, it is more right? Otherwise, like I said, I'd be fine with them just showing up when it was necessary, I don't need all the in between stuff. Also, with #5, I know they want to drag out "who killed Mara" for the characters, and that there will be a payoff when they do find it out, and that will be a momentous time in the arc, and it needs to be near the end probably, but it feels like they wrote the current part in a way that made it too obvious it was Jacen so the characters have to be stupid to not see it.
Thanks to all for replying, it is much more fun to discuss my reviews, than just me posting it and having to move on.
You ask why Luke would bother saying "I would never let you fall" before decapitating her. I think it wasn't love as much as it was a recognition of the past "yes I promised I would redeem you, yes I had feelings for you all those years ago-you mean something to me" but he was still angry and still killed her.
Please reread my post as written below
I acknowledged that it was from something I didn't read. I then said if didn't work for me regardless of any back history due to the fact that it means nothing to say what he did THEN take her head off...
It was an acknowledgement of his past promise-a sort of last courtesy or respect.
If Luke and Shira Brie had no back history then that statement wouldn't make any sense.
He wasn't going to take her alive-she had just accepted responsibility for killing his wife. But Luke did have enough respect either for her, or for whatever affections they had in the past to remind her of that promise before he dealt the killing blow.
It's supposed to moving and tragic-and to me at least it is.
fair enough, obviously it didn't work for me
I hate Mara's death, not just that she died, but it wasn't a very heroic death either. She was trying to protect Ben, but that wasn't a very Jedi (or good guy) death either. Not to mention that her last official message to Luke is a pathetic note, and... well, it gets worse in later books so you'll see. As mentioned, your #5 complaint is common.
Even worse since there was basically no time for fun Skywalker family trip ever (I think Zahn might have been interested in writing a story like that once), since Ben's life is kind of full (he was distant from his parents for most of his childhood, then latched onto Jacen, then Mara died and... yeah).
Its really sad that LotF (and FotJ) feel more empty than the 20-book saga like the NJO. But then as you've already seen, much of LotF is stalling for time.
Another silly thing is the "sacrifice". Lumiya's been nagging Jacen to sacrifice something to prove his Sith-ness, and after he kills Mara, he decides that Ben hating him for it counts, and the dark side apparently agrees. The name is a minor thing, I have no idea where it came from in-universe. Although back then there was a contest to decide what Jacen's Sith name would be (the Darth Who contest I think?) and Caedus won out. Which made things a bit hard to keep track of considering the protagonist of the much better Legacy comics was named Cade (though he was annoying too), but otherwise it was easy to keep those two Legacy series separate.
There was a fan contest in which Jacen's Sith name was decided. Which I guess isn't bad in principle I suppose.
And I think it's a tragic end to Mara-a Jedi master and Luke's wife to die an assassin slipping into darkness-she chose willingly to go after Jacen in the night-both literally and metaphorically and met her end while consciously trying to assassinate someone who threatened her son.
It's tragic and morally grey but didn't bother me.