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Lit LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I know it's bc I'm almost a "grey" Jedi in belief, so her actions didn't bother me so much, and especially since I never saw Mara as a full blown Luke acolyte in belief either, so the fact she was willing to kill Jacen to save her son, yea not Luke shining light, make sense to me for Mara, the former Emperor's Hand, and I'd do it to save my son....also, I'll be looking to see now how they make Jaina's fight with Jacen not be this if what Mara did was wrong....bc Jacen will have to be stopped....the note as the ending does suck bad though
    yea all this sucks
    see this is sorta what I'm been waiting for.....like I said, I had heard a lot of people hated LOTF, so as I've read it, this is what I've noticed too, it feels empty in parts or just has a lot of filler...I just figured most people noticed that too, h/e most of the people so far have seemed to tell me I was basically impatient whenever I pointed this out
    totally agree, I was like wait...that's the prophecy fulfilled? that counts? that makes him a Sith Lord?? well then, it doesn't take much, barely winning a fight by having to use a dart while being pinned to keep from getting killed yourself, but I guess that makes sense, since bad guys tend to be cowards...still, if the dark side counts that, that's lame!!!
    ok, I just figured there'd be more to it, a little disappointed I admit
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  2. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I'd whole heartedly agree that Mara was never as light much as a shining light as Luke was.

    And think about it from her POV-she thinks Jacen and Lumiya are coming to kill her son-her one son. And being the ferocious tigress that she is goes hunting-leaving behind any sort of Jedi restraint or moral uprightness.
     
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  3. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    To be fair Mara ended up taking on two Sith and a Sith Ship. I can’t think of a single Jedi Master running such long odds.

    But, I loved the ending. Luke acts in-character insofar as much as we’ve never seen him lose his wife. Lumiya really cannot he trusted to assume she is dead. A fall, and she’d survive. Shoot her down, and she’ll survive. Shoot her, even while strapped to a bomb - she survives.

    She was also Dark Lord of the Sith. I am a firm believer that while a prison can hold a Dark Jedi with some difficulty, a Sith is incredibly dangerous. She’s the Sith Master, she has to go.

    As to Mara, she’s realised the truth, and she’s mad about how tricked she’s been. Similarly, Luke has just demonstrated that he won’t kill Lumiya if she’s not showing aggression. Mara has to handle it, and she’s avoiding the moral argument.

    It’s not very Jedi of Luke, and that’s why it’s so powerful. It’s human. It will come with consequences.


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  4. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    @Sinrebirth all really good points on the aspects of humanity

    1) I absolutely agree with Mara and had absolutely no problems with what she did

    2) With Luke, that actually makes me rethink the scene, and actually I agree it'd be too hard to hold her and she had to go, and it also is a great showing of how humanity actually works.....for me I would rather the hero be the hero even in that moment instead of the humanity but that's just me, but also, so I'd rather Luke have stoically killed her bc he had no other choice during the fight....the holding her over a ledge and then decapitating her just seemed way off for Luke to me
     
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  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I think the way he killed her was indicative of their backstory-if Lumiya and Luke had no such backstory he might have just cut her down without a word. His "I would never let you fall line" is a final summation of the Luke-Shira Brie tragic relationship.
     
  6. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I can understand that is supposed to be where it comes from, I just personally don't see how it works considering the very next thing Luke does is cut her head off, to me it renders any nice statement beforehand, pointless.....ex - who cares if I say I love you to my wife, if I then kill my wife or who cares if I say I'd told my friend I'd be here for him, if I then shoot my friend in the face, it just makes the statement worthless to me bc I'm sure my wife/friend don't care...

    Also, I get it's a nice shout back to their backstory in the comics, h/e just saying, this is a major moment in the EU book series, I'd just personally think that of all the people that are reading the books, I'd think a lot smaller percentage read the comics....so it's not a good moment for an obscure reference that most won't get....sort of why people have an issue with TLJ since a lot of supposed missing content is possibly found in the Nu-Canon books that very few read...
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Their backstory is discussed in LOTF or at least referenced even before Sacrifice.

    And Luke isn't saying he loves her then killing her-he's acknowledging he cared for her or wished the best for her in the past "I made a promise to not let you fall but that was in the past and now there is no more talking". Lumiya's line of remember your oaths is the same sort of reference "basically your promises kept or broken are all you have left in the end". It's a summation of tragedy.
     
  8. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    The fact they have a backstory is discussed earlier in LOTF, very little of the actual backstory is actually revealed....all I know from LOTF is they had a thing at some point in the past and Luke ended up "killing" her which didn't work out obviously, that's hardly any backstory revealed at all.....and of course Luke isn't saying he loves her then killing her, but saying anything positive like "I'd never let you fall" then chopping her head off renders the positive pointless to me maybe not to u though....it reminds me of TLJ though, Luke was "not letting Ben" fall then by attacking him in the hut as he slept so it'd been cool for Luke to kill him there, I mean, Ben should've been grateful I guess, and I should see what Luke did as the best course and be like good job Luke, you kept a oath and did right by Ben...
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  9. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Its the sort of thing that requires understanding the backstory between the characters to grasp the gravity of.

    So I understand your complaints.
     
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  10. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    I have to say, Lumiya choreographed that last duel perfectly. Every line she said was meant to goad Luke into killing her in anger. It was all a lie of course, and as @Sinrebirth noted, it will have consequences. But make no mistake, Lumiya got the exact death she wanted. She manipulated Luke one last time.


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  11. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Lumiya was interested in dying-she knew was going to die and I think she welcomed it. She told Jacen as much.
     
  12. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Lumiya is the only person that won in this series. Well, maybe one other, but more on that later.
     
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  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    She got the last laugh. There is no doubt about that.
     
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  14. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Another thing I really hate about this fight. Not a fan of the bad guy making Luke the fool.

    I'm very worried about this moving forward. This seems really apparent at the moment, and knowing the ending (Jacen's death) w/o knowing all the how, but figuring the damage it has to cause, just makes me think that'll be the shining thing at the end too, the Skywalker/Solo family is torn to shreds and Lumiya got what she wanted......
     
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Lumiya may have denied it-but some fans have always said her whole motivation was to hurt Luke-that of a bitter ex girlfriend.
     
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  16. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It does hurt Luke.

    Mara dead, brush with the DS, Ben sent through Hell, Jacen falling, all the damage he did, all the time Luke took before stopping him, Han, Leia and Jaina giving up on Jacen, Jaina killing Jacen on Luke's order's, etc Lumiya won.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Your absolutely right. Lumiya if she could see the results of her actions in Chaos must have been laughing.
    .
     
  18. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Since we're discussing Legacy of the Force, I had a question that I never pondered when I read the series before.

    How exactly was Jacen able to pass the arrest of Cal Omas off as legal? Footage of him meeting with Gejjen isn't exactly a smoking gun. Did Omas even do anything really illegal? Meeting with a foreign Head of State isn't exactly against the law for the elected leader of the government. Wouldn't Omas have some sort of immunity from whatever trumped-up charge Jacen tried to bring against him?
     
  19. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Presumably through a combination of the evidence with Gejjen, the legal droid modifying the law, G'sil helping him, and that Jacen controlled the GAG.
     
  20. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    exactly my issues too, the best answer IU is simply because.....I mean it never has anyone question it, they all accept it as EVIL hook, line, and sinker.....and it goes hand and hand in that supposedly the entire GFFA LOVES Jacen at this point so the fact he's the one that does it works too....but it's basically "just because Omas needs removed to make Jacen's path to the top easier" even if it makes little sense in practicality or reality of how that stuff works

    if you're looking for the answer the book gives, @Darth Invictus summed it up nicely
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I'd also say Caedus wasn't unpopular with some sections of Coruscant's population. The one hero standing up against terrorism, sedition, and treason.

    It helps Jacen could be a charismatic figure especially if we put the force into it.
     
  22. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Yes, the books seem to go out of the way to paint that picture of Jacen from within Jacen's on pov and even public reaction, h/e that's sorta of an asinine concept. The whole GFFA (Omas, Senate, military, GAG, CSF, even the Jedi) are against all of that stuff, that's why there is a war going on with all these sides on the GFFA side against Corellia/Confederation. The public, if they acted with any sense, would know that too and not just be all in love with Jacen alone. Yet, I'd argue the entire public does seem to be in love with him even against the others in leadership (not counting those that side with Corellia obviously) and so they buy Omas' treason hook, line, and sinker when it's very grey. It shouldn't have worked that easy. Even Jacen changing that law should scream to everyone how bad he is, yet it just doesn't....
     
  23. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    After NJO, its not surprising how stupid the people of the galaxy are. Yet LotF still hit new lows. Aside from the fact that Jacen just got handed his own personal army of thugs (that was convenient), its still stupid that Jacen could take over so easily thanks to that ingenius mastermind, his legal droid. Its a mockery of how Palpatine took over the Galactic Republic (which took decades and massive resources and engineering a galactic war and gradually wearing down the Republic). Here, Jacen's legal droid wrote an amendment that basically says he can do anything, Lumiya mind tricks a few people, and poof, he's dictator in charge.

    Its easier to think of LotF (and FotJ) as a parody of the prequels, being more stupid and boring. Havac wrote these great summaries, but they were mostly lost during a board move years ago unfortunately (all the big posts got cut off).
     
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  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen wasn't the first one offered command of the GAG-Mara was offered it previously.

    I'd think off screen Jacen had allies like G'sli G'sil and he himself did some deal making, speech making, and other sorts of politicking and managed to push himself to the top
     
  25. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    1) it's not about the position itself, it's about Jacen's actions in that position and how the people of the galaxy ho hummed right along into Jacen becoming dictator....

    2) off screen?? well then, maybe u'r right, maybe u'r not....who knows??? I'd personally feel a lot better if it was on screen, or maybe if the people of the GFFA weren't utter idiots