Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Just trying to keep the thread updated with my progress, it's been slow since I work in taxes in the USA and it's a busy time right now.....

1) this threat of holding the Jedi Academy hostage by Jacen......how does this is even work, the book seems to indicate the galaxy would be cool with this??? how would the GFFA be cool with holding Jedi children hostage? if so, that's actually very uncool!!! (and I know Jacen's false claim that it's for protection, but all the Jedi would have to do is say it's not since it is THEIR academy, u'd hope that'd count for something) (Jacen even implies at one point that the GFFA would hate it for the Jedi academy to be in the hands of deserters referencing if the Jedi stopped backing him, yet....it's a Jedi Academy, who else would be in charge of it????, does he mean he would just close it down and ship the kids back home, if so ok, but that's not really indicated so it comes off as idiotic at least to me)

2) Luke's false stand up to Jacen is pathetic really, he shows up to confront Jacen, says he won't back him, that he won't let him use the Jedi academy hostage situation against the Jedi, then Jacen just tells him he actually will which Luke admits too and then gives in to Jacen so what's the point anyway??? Luke comes off as incredibly powerful in the Force with what he's able to do to Jacen but it doesn't even matter in the end, why'd he even go to confront him...he even admits he knew Jacen would just do this in the end.....I guess for a clear conscience that he "tried".......

 

Presumably Jacen's idea was to ensure the jedi's loyalty if the students at the academy were held hostage.

 

I get Jacen's idea....it's how it would work with the public is the question!!! The only thing the Jedi would have to do is let it be known what Jacen was doing and it seems that'd be a problem for him....

1) if the public sided with Jacen, well like I said, that's horrible, this is kids we're talking about, and really harms the story if this is the case, I mean why are we even reading/rooting for a galaxy that'd be like that, the only heroes left would be the Jedi but it'd be in a galaxy where they are the total outcasts, no point in continuing the story, who would the Jedi be fighting to save anymore??? the stories would only be about the Jedi hiding out...hence why there's no real stories of Obi-Wan or Yoda b/t PT and OT...that's not interesting or engaging at all

2)more than likely the public wouldn't side with Jacen, so issue is over unless Jacen is willing to become the bad guy openly at that point....which is what the Jedi need anyway so they can oppose him

so how does it work to Jacen's benefit if you think about it plausibly???

 

If you want to read some really mad ideas about how far a despot would go, take a look at A Requiem for Homo Sapiens by David Zindell.

 

okay, currently reading about Major Serpa rounding up the Jedi at the academy, and having had the Knights on duty killed and attacking Tionne and Kam getting killed along with 2 Mon Cal Jedi......I have one question, how the heck is a group of non-Jedi able to do this to Jedi???

Who cares if they took their lightsabers, last time I checked the Jedi have a bunch of other abilities, Force push, Force pull, Force "w/e Luke used on Jacen to hold him still earlier in the book".,....it's absolutely ludicrous that a group of Jedi could be herded into a Pavilion by a non-Jedi and be held hostage like that even with armed guards.....they could easily feel the presence/locations of the guards and just pull the guns away from the guards, use Force push to knock them to the ground....I'm getting sick of once again, just having people forget things or just be stupid for the sake of "plot contrivance" aka wanting a Jedi hostage scenario that shows how evil the bad guy is.....man I hate Denning

 

I guessing the only way Jacen could get away with this is if the information was hidden/suppressed from public consumption. After all the masses don't need to know what lengths Jacen will go to protect them.

I suspect a lot of Jacen's actions including the machinations that led to him becoming co chief of state were hidden from public knowledge.

 

I get that's his idea, but once again as I pointed out, all the Jedi have to do is tell the public...what is Jacen going to do???

1) say it isn't true, but the Jedi can prove it is unless he ends the hostage situation

2) say it is true, then risk public ridicule

the issue is just that Jacen's presented as being super smart and being 10 steps ahead, but I can see how to thwart his plans this easily, that's a problem to me with writing so I'm tired of being told how smart he is (although I do know it's from his pov so of course he thinks that about himself...but gosh it's irritating)

 

Maybe the Jedi are also in the business of information control? So a lot of the Jedi/Jacen conflict is not something the average Coruscanti knows the details and full extent of.

We see this story and other stories from the Jedi/Sith/important people POV.

There were quite a few things the prequel era Jedi did where it would make sense to hide from public view, same with Luke's NJO.

 

but what is there to hide here in this situation???
1) that the Jedi have a Jedi Academy?
2) maybe the location, but I don't think that the location is a secret, even so, it's not important to it being held hostage
3) this isn't the Jedi having concerns about the Republic, that's what they hid from the people in the PT, that they worried about the Chancellor, bc that would have created all types of issues, nothing like that here, it's simply they have an Academy to train other Jedi, every one knows this, used to be on Coruscant u know, now it's being held hostage by Jacen....that is a a bad thing, they should tell people so Jacen can't get by with it

any other issue they have with Jacen doesn't have to come into play with this on the table, this is clearly a win win for them to be as open as possible

 

just read about Alema meeting the One Sith.......so confusing!!!!

1) everything in it feels like a retcon (Lumiya, Vergere, Lomi Plo all involved with them and knew of them????).......stories never had these connections before, not sure how they're supposed to work based on the timeline of the previous events....

2) they really don't care about Jacen? they want nothing to do with him? and Lumiya went against their plans to do the Jacen thing bc she thought their plans were too slow? then, why did she talk to Alema about the "bigger plan" if she wasn't following it, she had rejected them, people don't usually talk about people they break away from at least not in a positive way

3) and hopefully there'll be a future explanation where they came from, or else, where've they been during the entirety of the EU?????

 

As I understood it Lumiya contacted the one Sith perhaps on information from Vergere regarding Krayt-their plans didn't coincide rule of two vs rule of one and Krayt saw Caedus as a lightning rod while I guess Lumiya saw the one sith as potential allies then potential rivals/enemies. With Lomi Plo being on a one Sith agent or something.

It's a massive retcon and makes very little sense.

 

It does tie up loose ends. Unfortunately these loose ends were based on retcons and very questionable history that later writers didn't question.

What was Krayt's plan in the event Caedus prevailed over the Jedi and Confederation? Why didn't Lumiya ever bother telling her prized pupil about the one sith-who would have inevitably challenged him for the sith mantle-it's not like she was the more reticent sith master she was usually pretty open with Jacen. I mean Alema gave him their regards which were quite contemptuous-a useless Holocron of Vectivus.

Vergere and Lumiya's happen chance meeting and in depth discussion makes more sense as a lie Lumiya told Jacen to get him fully on board with being a Sith, given how important Vergere was as a teacher in his life.

The problem with these conspiracies is they IU require a near tremendous suspension of disbelief and I struggle to make sense of them in an IU context.

As for Lomi Plo and Welk-what purpose did them joining the killiks serve really? The swarm war was averted and the dark nest defeated. If anything Lomi Plo should have been more of a loose canon whose eventually joining of the Killiks and becoming the queen would have thrown a wrench into Lumiya's and Krayt's plans.

And as for Alema-Lumiya knew she was crazy and mentally unbalanced-she was a useful foil and agent sure and fall woman as well-but Lumiya never seemed to plan for her capture which was a real possibility.

We are led as readers to believe these plots have come into being are decades in the making at least sense of the mid Yuuzhan Vong War despite this not making any sense within the context of the NJO itself and only vaguely with retcons for DNT even.

What was Lumiya's plan in the event Jacen died? Palpatine was in a position where he could occasionally maneuver and shake things to ensure Anakin's safety even as a Jedi Palawan and could observe him from a distance. Jaina, Kyp, Leia they were all potential targets allegedly discussed for corrupting-yet rejected. How would Lumiya and Vergere know this? Jaina very nearly fell to the dark side in the NJO, Kyp was under its sway, Leia-well at least for Lumiya what better way to get back at Luke that or Mara.

Lumiya spent her time in a forgotten asteroid/abandoned mine and maybe some time on Korriban and elsewhere in sith space.

Basically these plots require multiple contrivances and that the reader accept a lot of stuff was going on that wasn't even hinted at in the earlier books.

 

Just finished Inferno, time for the review.....

1) this is the worst book I think in the series so far, I know for the first 100 pages or so, I just couldn't get into it, it dragged and of all other things, this series hasn't had that problem so far, and for all Denning's faults this also hasn't been one of his up to this point

2) don't want to rehash a lot of more prev. complaints too much, but they do make up a lot of what makes this book create an "inferno" in me - Jacen's actions are just too extreme for the GFFA public to still back him, at least u see a beginning of a turn in viewpoint by his own military since he's so cruel, but the book still indicates they'll follow Jacen which doesn't make good sense, and I'm expecting the GFFA to still back him in the next book which already upsets me

3) too much of this book falls prey to "plot contrivance" as I said before - events happen in a way perfectly for the author's plot but not in a plausible way (Mara's body joining Force at point so Luke will take wrong position on what she's saying, how the Academy is able to be taken hostage, etc)

4) too much retcon but that's a Denning trademark - One Sith's fit into the previous events of IU - @Darth Invictus had super good points on this in above post

5) big problem I noticed closer to the end, Denning has major events just skipped over and suddenly we're dropped right in the middle of the aftermath/next scene (Jaina showing up at Kashyyk with info to tell Luke w/o us seeing her gathering info, Luke's explosion "death" then suddenly on board the ship, like how'd he do that??, Ship being able to "control" and Jacen heading towards Alema for safety, then others discussing aftermath, how did Jacen actually escape???)

6) I know it's probably realistic for Ben to be this upset/angry, but it's just tiring to watch another good Jedi basically go almost bad or full bad....it's a tiring trope (Anakin Skywalker, Kyp, Jaina, Jacen, Luke w/ Lumiya last book, now Ben....)....don't really want to read this sad time for Ben

7) I still think Jacen is OP, and that bugs me.....everything seems to indicate once again the dark side/other Force philosophies are stronger/better hence why Jacen has surpassed all the Jedi in abilities, and I don't believe that nor does the concept of the Force that SW teaches believe it, yet the events of the book seem to in fact indicate it by Jacen's abilities outside and inside of battle

8) Jacen himself annoys me, I'm tired of his POV chapters that continue to spurt crap that he thinks this is the best way to save the galaxy through killing, dominating, hurting his family, etc....I get it, Jacen's deluding himself, but we all know he is evil, why do we have to keep hearing this over and over again when he know it isn't the truth? it's irritating beyond measure

there might be more, but that's probably enough.....anyway hit me up and let me know what you think about the book and my review

P.S. - have to order and wait on the final 3 books to come in the mail so it might take me a while to post on the next book - Fury - feel free to keep the posts coming til then though

 

@OutsiderJediSam what did you think of Jacen's weird dream where he recited the names of all the women in his life?

I thought the passage was odd.

Anyway Jacen's actions were appalling though from a military/political POV made some sense. "This is the consequence of secession" Jacen is acting very much like an imperial here.

Jacen wants to break Ben-and make him into his apprentice this fails obviously but he drives Ben towards darkness and I think could have succeeded if given more time.

 

That would mean Lumiya and Krayt were either outright allies or at least working towards similar goals.

And it also does cheapen Lumiya's character-"remember your oaths" and "sacrifice is essential" into "I want hurt my ex boyfriend and inflict as much grief on his family as possible".

That's a legitimate interpretation but one that requires believing basically every word Lumiya told Jacen was a lie except all the NJO conspiracy stuff and is incongruent with her interactions with Luke and everyone else in LOTF.

 

Yea it was very odd, out of nowhere, and felt out of place considering how composed Jacen had been about that issue in all previous information presented. Also, that he'd mention some of those names seems downright odd in relation to mentioning Tenel Ka and his daughter.

Agreed on the "Imperial" Jacen concept which is why I'd like to see some push back now towards him even from other military in the Alliance and the GFFA general public...they should remember that time period (or the stories of it if too young) and know they don't want that again.....

 

There were protests on Coruscant I recall "the empire is back" was their chant-I'm pretty sure that was in Sacrifice. So some of the public was opposed to jacen's actions.

 

My impression is Lumiya didn't know what was up with the One Sith, and like Caedus likely took up what she was given by them as some form of gratitude, without realising that they were being insulted in subtle ways like the Vectivus Holocron situation you mentioned. And Krayt didn't initiate his plans after almost a century after the events of LOTF, he'd probably expect Caedus to go down at some point or another regardless. I mean, we essentially had someone continuing Caedus' policies in office not long after he was offed, so I doubt it was much of an issue for Krayt.

I think Lumiya had big plans but overall, but ultimately she didn't know what she was even doing a lot of the time. I don't think it was revenge against Luke, a part of it may have been, but I believe she was serving a bigger purpose, and she represented a new form of Sith that I'd like to call 'Palpatinist' as opposed to Banite, Sith who want to impose order on the Galaxy and are far from the chaotic Sith of the past whose main focus was revenge on the Jedi. This makes sense, as Lumiya didn't learn about Sith from the likes of Bane and Zannah but from Palpatine and Vader. We see some of this in Krayt's One Sith, but they're clearly a different breed, with the end-intention being to turn the entire Galaxy 'culturally Sith', judging by things like the Dragon Ships, the Sith Troopers, it wasn't just Wyyrlok. Krayt had no intention of leaving the portions of the Galactic Empire he had under him as 'Imperial' for any while longer if he had lived.

I actually think support for Jacen goes well with the fact that the Fel Empire's meant to own at least half the Galaxy before taking down the Alliance just a few decades later. You have to keep in mind that this is a chaotic Galaxy, suffering from a massive extragalactic alien invasion, from frequent instabilities within the Galactic Alliance, meaning its more susceptible to authoritarian rule. The Fels instituted a structured and orderly government without the excesses of Palpatine's Empire which clearly appealed to many, but you have to keep in mind there's no evidence of an 'Imperial Senate' being restored, its the Emperor with what is essentially a military council under him.

 

Krayt waited to put his plans into action

Spoiler

according to Jacen because he forestalled the dark man coming to power/being and Jacen said he saw Allana beside Krayt implying Krayt's rise if not for Jacen's actions would have been in her lifetime perhaps young lifetime so anywhere from 50 ABY to 100 ABY

I'm still not sure how to interpret Jacen's rambling the names of all the women in his life during his dreams. I guess it might say something about subconscious? Maybe this is what he has sacrificed? Maybe it was an expression of subconscious conflict. As @Thrawn McEwok has said Jacen wasn't the social or heavily interested in girls type but maybe that's something he wanted or a course his life could have gone.

You have the mystical philosophical Jacen or Darth Caedus whose mind and soul are weighed heavily by metaphysical or spiritual concerns and the Han Solo's son or the rogue Jacen. The Jacen that could be very much interested in the opposite sex(and very successful if he put the actual effort in it come to think of it)-but that aspect of his personality is largely suppressed by his focus on less carnal more "weighty" concerns.

Perhaps it was just a Freudian sort of thing.

As I've said before regarding the Fel's they used what they call in real life "soft power" cultural influence and outreach, doctors, scientists and even "missionaries"(which I guess means promoting the ideals of the empire in an ideological or near religious sense).

The GA had failed-with its support of the Jedi during the Ossus debacle a large part of the Galaxy decided the empire was a better choice.

As for a senate there is one in LOTF-but it presumably had the same issues the NJO one did and some prequel issues as well.

After all one of Jacen's main allies and co-conspirators was a senator-G'sli G'sil.

 

I more of meant, there's clearly no senate in the Fel Empire. There obviously is in the GA, but we also don't know in what way it shifted by the time of Legacy. I like to think with the Triumvirate thing becoming an eventual constant, maybe it adopted some sort of technocratic mechanism and its sole purpose was to keep the GA going, which is why it lost ground to the advancing Empire, it didn't provide any kind of counter to the Imperial Mission.

 

It reminds me of the late Roman republic-the triumvirate was a way of balancing differing personalities and factions.

I can see the GA triumvirate evolving as a mechanism for maintaining stability within the state and ensuring some actual functioning.

Your right it couldn't provide a counter, and that was for two reasons-it couldn't or didn't actively check Imperial influence either by counter espionage, diplomatic protests, and other dejarik moves of states, and it didn't provide any sort of ideological narrative or counter to what the Felpire was promising and delivering.

I can see in the 80 years between C and Legacy the inhabitants of the GA growing increasingly disgruntled and receptive to Imperial propaganda and influence-some of which might have concretely benefited GA citizens.

While the GA languished in corruption, ineffectuality, and incompetence.

The empire is saying "we care about you and your needs, we can provide for
you" and the GA is ignoring or outright disinterested in its own citizens.

 

Okay, since I'm waiting on my last 3 books of this series to get here, I'd like to recap a couple of issues....I'd love to see what others have to say and spoilers are okay in the sense of answering my direct questions......

1) first does it not annoy anybody else really bad in Inferno how Denning left certain scenes unfinished per sey, like the Luke's "death" scene....how did he survive, his ship blew up out in space and suddenly he's in the Anakin Solo???? like how???? did Denning not have a good answer so he just didn't write it??? does this not annoy anybody else?? another example is how did Jacen actually get past and survive getting away from Kashyyk, it's hinted at that Alema will help him, but we never get to see it, once again, that's crappy writing to me to not show something that sounds like it'd be interesting and cool to see...others' opinions?

2) I think it weakens Tahiri's character horribly to do what they did to her in Inferno...now she's the forlorn girl who's so not over dead Anakin she'll follow Jacen down the rabbit hole....that's horrible to do to her especially with how they showed her to be so strong in combining her Vong/normal personalities in NJO...that just sucks to me, what do others think?

3) I've said this before but I'm gonna say it again, why is Alema in this series??? she doesn't do anything but hang out in the background for the most part, she's sorta just an info dump at times, like how she was used to introduce the One Sith, but that's all??? you don't even need her for that!!, and like I've already said, she's not believable as a foil anymore to any Jedi, and when she does beat them it only makes them look pathetic since she's been so hacked up and has no real reason to be so OP.....jw if anybody agrees or has a good reason for her inclusion (you can hint at why she's important in further books if u want, I'll be ok, it's better than being this frustrated over her)

4) as above, I know the next Traviss book is coming up and I know Mando stuff will be in it, but once again, I'm still not sure why it's included? I keep hearing it's important but if it was, wouldn't it be in every book and not just confined to her books?? isn't that alone indicator it's not a real important part of the story?? Also as I said in a earlier post, if the importance is Mando involvement in the war, did we really need all that backstory to see them involved? We have no detailed backstory like that on the Bothans, Commenor, or others but they are all in the war too. It was unneeded for them, why is it needed for Mandalore? Also, what's important in THIS story arc to include Fett trying to find a cure for himself? That could be a good side story in a book about Fett, but it just takes up space in this arc doesn't it? And finally, on the going after Jacen, that would be a good story to include, but there's 3 books of this stuff, in Book 1 this revenge story doesn't start til near the end, it's not part of Book 2, so it better be the majority chunk of Book 3 Mando stuff or it's wasted.....once again, opinions and spoilers on this are welcome to ease frustration haha

5) does anybody else think a lot of the things that happen in this series are definitely plot contrivances and just putting people in a holding pattern by acting stupid so all the real confrontation can happen in the last chapter of a single book or the last book for the bigger arc? (ex. - like the takeover of the Ossus Academy in this book, I just don't think military/guns would work against a whole group of Jedi, or anybody thinking it wasn't Jacen who killed Mara?)

6) jw, finally, as I've pointed out over and over, is anybody else just tired of hearing Jacen claim to be doing this "evil" for a greater good? I know it's a trope of villains but it's one that always bothers me, I was watching Arrow last night and a villain was going to blow up the whole city just to punish Oliver bc he thought Oliver killed his son....and I'm like, that's not the same at all, just accept you're evil man!!!

I would love to hear from people on each of these issues, please feel free to respond!!!!

 

1. Jacen isn't and would never be an "evil for the lulz" type of villain. If LOTF was true to his character in anyway it was that he needed some sort of moral or philosophical justification for everything he did.

Spoiler

Alema will die soon

Spoiler

Sometimes I think Denning writes scenes and gets bored and then jumps to the end.

I think we can agree LOTF did weaken Tahiri's character-the only IU explanation I can give is the death of Anakin and the lack of companionship without him made her more receptive to Jacen's propositions.