Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

The Mandalorian arc, overall, is a little bit of Traviss fluff. However, Mandalorian warfare is important in the takedown of Jacen.

As for your #6 - yes. Oh my, yes. "I'm not like my grandfather because he does things for good for SELFISH reasons. I'm not selfish, I do it for the UNIVERSE! #NotLikeGrandpa."
Smack him upside the head, that's what I'd like to do.

 

My problem with it though is it's a fake "philosophical justification" for Jacen or any villain to try to make such a proclamation thought, "I'm doing this evil for good".....there's no justification for evil of the magnitude of what Jacen is doing, so he's just being dishonest with himself to look for a justification, and that's the problem to me

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If he believes Allana is the key to a better future and he doesn't want

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to see her by the dark man's side

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then there isn't much he wouldn't do for her.

 

but u can't justify becoming a dictator of a galaxy, taking hostage a group of children, having people assassinated, going pure evil/Sith, overkilling in battle, just to save your daughter.....

 

Allana is the innocence and potential contrasted with his darkness and cynicism.

She doesn't know who her father is, she doesn't know the game her mother has to play both to keep her throne and (both) their lives, she is a sweet girl who plays with stuffed tauntauns. The same girl Jacen sees as the

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Jedi Queen ruling over an age of peace, good wil and prosperity "surrounded by friends"

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he is willing to damn himself so she doesn't have to, he is willing to set world's ablaze, lie, murder, and betray because she at least in his visions is essential to the future

 

I get all of that is WHY Jacen does what he does, but that WHY is flawed in "acceptable justification", do you think it isn't? do you think it's okay that Jacen does all he does just bc it helps his daughter have a better life down the road????

 

Congratulations on having a moral compass.

Not everyone has one, including Jacen in LOTF.

 

I'm still working through this thread, but re: flow walking. I took it as using the Force to tap folks' memories of a situation. You can play with it, and change the memories, and it will seem realistic, sure. But nothing really changed.

 

It wasn't just about ensuring she had a better life-his visions told him Allana would have great political(and I always interpreted) metaphysical or spiritual significance.

She isn't the "chosen one" but she is a metaphorical being of light, gentleness, and compassion as well as pure unvaunted innocence-and Jacen sees that as being very important.

"A child shall lead them"...

It's terrible the things he does-but he does it for the person who means

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everything for him, more important than his own life or soul

 

Oh my goodness, that is so bloody true. Jacen is a more understandable Jedi-turned-Sith than Ben Solo is.

 

Given what Jacen experienced in TUF he has as much right to a god complex as any mere mortal in Star Wars.

 

Don't get hung up on the one statement, so what if it is what u say it is instead, does that give him the right to do what he did? do you think that makes it ok? I surely don't

Pure unvaunted innocence? How is that innocence going to be once Jacen does what he does and she has to live in that aftermath? Especially if she ever finds out Jacen is her father?

Once again, I acknowledge YES this is why he does it, I just don't accept that as a good justification. Do you?

Haha a pretty big flaw if you ask me. A horrible flaw!!!

Right to a god complex?? I get what you're saying due to what Jacen was able to do at the end of TUF, but I'd say no one has a right to a god complex personally.

oh and yay, last 3 books came in the mail, so starting Fury today

 

I don't think it's that the motivation doesn't make sense for a Jedi turned Sith. It's that it being the motivation of Jacen Solo, the guy that spent the entirety of NJO being the Jedis moral compass suddenly shows up as this ends justify the means utilitarian in DNT and LOTF.


If we had spent more time on his journeys showing why his outlook changes between TUF and DNT , it probably would have been a lot less jarring.

 

I imagine Jacen had he lived would have done everything to ensure Allana never found out how much blood Jacen shed for her sake.

Jacen cares about his daughter and more than that he cares about the Galaxy-he doesn't want to see Krayt, a Dark Luke, or whoever else ruling in perpetuity, nor does he want men like Thrackan Sal Solo to throw the Galaxy into eternal chaos, etc...

To prevent these things he internalizes the notion of self denial and sacrifice-he gives up everything both for a better future and to prevent a terrible one.

 

okay man, I give up, we're not even on the same battlefield of debate here......u'r arguing IU reasons which I keep agreeing with u on, I'm arguing OOU/reality issues that make it annoying and u just ignore those so.....I'm willing to let it go....although I'd be interested in knowing if anybody out there does understand what I'm saying and have thoughts in relation to that

 

Um, I have a hard time keeping up with everything on the last page, but to sum it up- yeah, there's plenty wrong with this series, and its only going to get worse. Brace yourself, the last three books are not good (not like first six were decent either).

The character assassination of Jacen, Tahiri, as well as keeping everyone in the dark and stupid to drag things out, well, these were all problems years ago when the books came out. This board went around in circles on those flaws, and I can't really say there was any improvement (here or FotJ).

Although I see it as a magnification of the problems of the NJO without any of the strengths of that series either. Angst, death, keep Luke on the sidelines so he doesn't solve the problem too soon, etc. I'm not happy about the reboot, but there's a reason some of us are happy to be rid of the post-NJO novels.

 

yea, one thing that seriously scares me for Fury, I've only read the first chapter but....I read a review on Amazon of it and it said the major plot is Jacen kidnapping his daughter and the work to get her back, but at the end of the book, he just rekidnaps her thus making the entire book moot???? that really sucks

 

Just to clarify, that review sounds like it is a bit off. Jacen does kidnap his daughter, but they get her back by the end of the book. Not to defend the series, but there's plenty of other things to criticize it for.

 

okay good, but I'm still worried about these last 3 books, if they're as bad as I hear........

 

I think the real problem was competing authorial visions and emphases-Allston's focus on the war and fleet, Traviss-her mando love, and Denning-well the violence, one Sith cameos, and such like that.

Denninng and Traviss continually sought to one up and undermine each other with Allston left in the middle.

What LOTF needed was very different writers, editors that actually had a unified vision, and James Luceno.

Stover writing half of LOTF would have been awesome and would have totally made the series worth it and incredible. But apparently he writes to slow for the publishers and Lucasfilm. Because he a quality over quantity sort of guy.

 

I wish he would be asked back for the Nu-canon.

 

I don't think there's a single person who agrees with Jacen in LOTF, because he very obviously painted as the villain.

What he's saying is that you can still empathize with and understand Jacen's point of view, even if you strongly disagree and think it's evil.

I don't know if you've seen Black Panther yet, but that's what many people think is one of the strengths of its main villain.

Also, the other person is making references to things that haven't happened yet at the point you're reading.

Allana would still be innocent, and I don't think it's spoilery to say that the secret eventually comes out to at least a few people.

Jacen basically believes he's sacrificing his soul to save her soul, and protect the galaxy. To use an Earth metaphor, Jacen knows what he's doing will make him go to hell. But he's still doing it because it will ensure his daughter goes to heaven. I don't want to give FOTJ away, but this idea is underlined even more in key scenes in that series. Jacen knows he's condemning his soul, and just thinks it's worth it. To use a Christianity metaphor... Jesus chooses to die (when he doesn't have to) so all others can live, that's the basic gist. Jacen chooses to do evil and go to hell, so many others (including his daughter) are ensured "heaven" both in terms of galactic peace for decades and so their souls are saved. Obviously, going evil isn't the same thing as dying for others, but Jacen equates them, that's how he justifies himself, to him it's just another form of self-sacrifice, and an even bigger self-sacrifice than just dying for someone else.

Yes, having a god complex is a horrible flaw. I'm not sure what you're upset about in this post? Nobody is saying Jacen doesn't commit evil.


As for the last 3 books, to give you a preview... I don't remember what happens in Fury, Revelation with see payoff to the Mandalorian subplot, and Invincible is written well in some aspects and does some things that the rest of the series was criticized for not doing (such as remembering that Jacen is supposed to be threatening and rational) but making some new mistakes too.

 

Well, except I don't empathize at all with Jacen's pov. I could empathize with his fear of his daughter growing up in a bad world. I could empathize with his regret that there isn't some way he could make the world perfectly safe for her. I cannot empathize with his choice that he will do what he does to ensure that future. As you yourself said, I have a moral compass, I'm not going to aplologize for that. I don't think it's that hard to have one, so forgive me if I think others should have it too.

I get the attempt with the Jesus example, but as a Christian myself, that's not an apple to apple example. Jesus died to save the world, but didn't cause any horrible issues along the way. Jacen is destroying the galaxy to save it in a "possible" future as he sees it.

My issue with the god complex, and I might have misunderstood the poster, but when it was said his only fault was a god complex, it indicated to me Jacen was cool otherwise (which I disagree with) and that the god complex isn't that big a deal then if it was his only fault (which I think it is). Any punctuation I used that was taken too extreme like I was yelling I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to that degree.