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Lit LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    What did the moffs Hope to gain from joining the SCGW? If Caedus wins he isn't exactly going to be beholden to them. If the Jedi, GA splinters, or confederation win then they aren't going to be merciful for the moffs siding with a Sith Lord who wasn't even elected.
     
  2. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    From the text, it seemed to indicate they thought the GA was inferior and weak and if nothing else, they'd just be able to have Bilbringi and Borleas and maybe even occupy Fondor since the GA wouldn't be able to successfully oversee it, so a mini growth of the Empire enthralled them. However, they seemed to think maybe the GA would implode just bc it's so inferior and they could step up again bc people would remember the Empire's ability to rule.

    On another issue, just wondering, why in the world is Jacen still only a Colonel? He's now the co-COS, heck Niathal is a full admiral, isn't it a little crazy that a admiral and a colonel are the 2 COS?? you'd think Jacen would have a higher rank by this point even if he gave it to himself.....

    EDIT: also, I'm just absolutely baffled that so many of the military sided with Jacen, I mean, what made them do that, Niathal has as much credibility as Jacen it would seem, and she hasn't shown any "crazy" tendencies, "evil" moments, or suicidal attack runs, heck the chapter itself even tells how Jacen had to mind influence the entire military into a "battle crazy" mode to get them to fight a certain way and then they were apologizing when they came out of it, yet the majority still sided with him/his actions at the end??? he took 2/3 of the fleet???
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Colonel was a political rank given to him for his command of the GAG. Caedus(or really Jacen) had not had a military career and been in a military hierarchy before accepting command of the galactic alliance guard.

    I doubt he cared as much about having a higher rank-Caedus main political power base was the GAG and the fleets loyal to him. Not the galactic alliance army, or the rest of the navy. Niathal had the loyalty(at least nominally) of the rest of the fleet with B'wuatu as a leading officer.
     
  4. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I know that's where his rank originated, and I would only think he personally cared about the higher rank bc of his desire to be seen as an equal to Niathal in the vein of being seen as truly on the same co-COS level as her by others to make his job of leading easier....the issue with the fleets then would be how much of the Battle of Fondor fleet was GAG and how much was GA army, and then why would that mean Niathal is now in exile where as Jacen can go back to Coruscant, the GA army would have to be vastly bigger than the GAG I would think and thus Niathal would def. have the most pull back at home....
     
  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen had the support of the troops though remember and was of course a highly trained Jedi/Sith lord. So Niathal would have to be very cautious in sealift with Jacen. The rank and file respect him and he has far more ways of ending her than she does ending him.
     
  6. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Just pointing out...
    You can't have it both ways to answer a point....
    1)either Jacen had only the GAG and certain fleets loyal to him while Niathal had the rest of the military (which would be more just in obvious thinking unless the GAG is bigger than the rest of the military which would be weird)
    OR
    2)Jacen has the support of "the troops" (which indicates everyone)....
    Yet, u just seemed to argue for both!!!

    Also, the rank and file did respect him, but the books have recently made aware there's been a shift bc of him killing Tebuk and then his "crazy" reaction to the Jedi illusion at the Battle of Fondor that the entire fleet saw.....that so many just join him against Niathal who has no reason to be this disregarded herself.....it's just this simple to me at least, think about being in this battle and everything u see Jacen do and Niathal do, then u hear the order to cease bc surrender has been accepted yet someone keeps fighting, if u side with the person that keeps fighting, I just don't have much respect for u, it's just sad to see the GA military be that way...
     
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen I think was charismatic enough that his blunders over Fondor and killing Tebut wouldn't affect his reputation amongst the common GA soldiers that much.

    As for Niathal-her position is probably more tenuous than Jacen's is. After all Jacen is quite willing to send Tahiri after people who tick him off and have them killed.

    Niathal I think was also conscious of the political situation-she knows the Jedi and confederation have been declared terrorist organizations and she knows that Caedus is popular on Coruscant.

    In terms of sheer numbers Niathal as the advantage but in terms of the balance of politico-military power Caedus has the advantage.

    -Support of the core
    -secret police/elite commandos loyal to him alone
    -respect of the rank and file
    -force user with an assassin to send if need be
    -political restraints
    -and Jacen has the IR after Pellaeon dies.

    Thus making the overall balance of power taking into account both military and political factors in favor of Jacen. She may have more forces but Jacen holds more pieces on the dejarik board.
     
  8. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    I think angst and plot are probably the answer to most questions about how stupid this series is. Why does the Imperial fleet mostly ignore Pellaeon's (a legendary Imperial admiral) last order right before he's basically assassinated on air, to mostly side with Caedus? Plot. Why does most of the GA fleet ignore their Supreme Commander (who was second in command of the fleet before Pellaeon resigned, and that was after he led them for five years off-screen too) to side with the thuggish Caedus? Plot. Why doesn't Luke and a dozen Jedi just beat up Caedus and glue a yslamiri to his back? Plot.

    Basically they wanted to rush back to the evil Empire situation, and since the GA wasn't that nice in the first place, now we're back to almost RotS or early Dark Times. These problems were obvious a decade ago and haven't improved since. At least you only have one more book to go before this farce is over (though another one starts up right after).
     
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  9. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Yeah I'm basically trying to give IU explanations and finangle the story to make sense to the best of my ability.

    Though I'm probably putting more thought into the worldbuilding and motivations of the characters then the authors did.
     
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  10. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I disagree that it was unlikely. The Moffs were there, and had loyalists in their own right. The scuffle over the Wyvern battle group is apparent.

    Similarly, they had just been bloodied by the Fondorians. It’s a lot to ask a soldier to not just disobey his Moff commanders but also defend people who had just been trying to kill him. That’s what Niathal was also asking of her soldiers, only a third of which at the battle were parts of her task force and the other two thirds were from the Fourth Fleet, that had fought with Caedus at Balmorra and Kuat.

    The most loyal Imperials did revolt, aboard the Bloodfin. But the rest? They have to think about not just today, but tomorrow. Same with the half of the Fourth that Caedus commanded.

    Perhaps if Caedus had brought Admiral Gavin Darklighter too, but he didn’t. Niathal had allowed Caedus to sideline her and that cost her support within the Navy; it was Caedus putting his neck on the line at Balmorra, at Kashyyyk, and so forth.

    Caedus who led the Fourth to victory, who saved the Fifth at Kashyyyk and the Core from the Confederates, and continued fighting even as his entire family turned against him. He put the GA ahead of his own personal happiness and scourged the terrorist scum from Coruscant. That’s an incredibly strong narrative and the madman stories were largely suppressed.

    Niathal the iceberg handed Caedus the keys and knew she didn’t have a personal legion that would step to her side; she’d made it impossible to launch a coup against him by undercutting their joint opponents.

    As to Luke and the Jedi? They launched five attacks on Caedus between the battles of Kuat and Fondor. They did so with the view of minimising GA casualties and that takes time. Caedus is not the kind of foe you just hurl Jedi at; it gets people killed. A quarter of the Jedi at Kashyyyk, two of the strike team including Katarn, however many Jedi of Rakehell didn’t survive, and so on.

    That’s three months and five attempts, involving more than hundred Jedi. What more can you ask of the Jedi?

    That’s like saying ‘Darth Tyranus should have been snatched up swiftly by the nine thousand Jedi that were hunting him.’


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  11. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Loyalists to the Moffs? A possible assumption, but never shown. As said before, the military is actually shown to be loyal to Pellaeon in the Past.

    Except, you're not taking in to account a ceasefire order had been given which the Fondorions themselves also were abiding by and not attacking. You're basically justifying an army's decision to perform a massacre in spite of such an order. Wars are constantly fought and then halted right in the middle of it. I would hope soldiers have the ability to hold themselves back at these times. If they don't, that's not a good thing.

    I can see your point here.

    I have no problems understanding how Caedus' past actions gave him support, but his recent action def. were costing him support. The book tells u this. The whisper around the military are all about the Tebuk incident. This probably comes down to interpretation of how much support he should have lost.

    Same as above, and the madman stories were not suppressed around the fleet itself. The book makes that very plain. Whispers abound and fleet personnel seem concerned.

    Once again, I'm sure a matter of opinion on how that support should be split. And should is the key word here I know. I think a good GA military should be able to see Jacen's ways and side with Niathal. Siding with Jacen purely off "he's one of us" is a little amoral to me considering what's he's doing to others.
    Fair enough on the Jedi, and I know they're gonna do everything they can to not kill Jacen, plus I'm sure the fallout from killing a co-COS wouldn't be great for them. It's just frustrating to watch them tip toe around stopping him knowing it won't work. It'll take direct confrontation to take him down.
     
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  12. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    The Wyvern battle group almost disobeyed Pellaeon. The forces there wanted to obey Caedus - Pellaeon had to reiterate his order. That’s in the novel before he verbally smacks down Quille.

    Oh Tebut definitely was costing him support. But Niathal forced the issue without enough support on her side. It was a really close thing - Caedus took 2/3 and she took 1/3. Had Pellaeon stayed in charge she would have been fine - half a fleet with Fondor and 1/3 with Niathal puts her ahead of 1/2 Fleet Caedus.

    But then Pellaeon dies and it’s 1 and a half Caedus fleets against Niathal... but then Daala arrives and she has more ships and better weapons. Similarly, it’s Admiral Daala - the Galactic terrorist and an Imperial of Palpatine caliber which never surrendered.

    The Caedus bunch have to side with an uncertain Sith and the Remnant, or side with the Fondorians and Daala, a proven nutcase and amoral Imperial.

    The Fourth Fleet members that secede would have not only been firing on behalf of Daala and Fondor, but also at former Fourth Fleet comrades. Even if we discard all alternate points, that’s a massive enough issue.

    Caedus slips by because he is always the best of the bad choices. Which is maddening but you can see the entire GA making these tiny deals with evil for security and order and peace.

    You are massively correct about the fallout. Caedus may have to conquer half the galaxy to put together the GA, but the Jedi have abandoned the GA at Kuat when they could have won, destroyed Centerpoint when they could have won, and generally continued the War for three more months. Kashyyyk, Commenor, Centerpoint, and now Fondor are the faults of the Jedi and gross dereliction of duty by Grandmaster Luke Skywalker - but only with the benefit of hindsight, whereas until Kuat Caedus had the benefit of the doubt...

    Maddening situation, but not at all impossible in my eyes. When democracies arm themselves to the teeth and have no enemies to hand?

    They make them.


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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  13. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2012
    I'll admit that I try to stay out of the LotF arguments because I've only read the series once and the whole thing pissed me off for a multitude of reasons. But this, Sinre, deserves a tip of the hat.
     
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  14. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Please remind me exactly who is Wyvern battle group? For clarification purposes thanks.

    I get that's the numbers breakdown on what did happen. Like I said though, I personally don't think the leadup events should have resulted in that breakdown at this time and place.
    Agreed def. about Daala, I can't stand her. But, I feel this is ignoring an equal co-COS Niathal is also a part of this delegation.
    To me this is moot, bc it's tit for tat. Either side has to make the choice to fire on prev. friends. If we're talking about the choice that makes the most sense, it probably would have been for a total stalemate as no one knew who to side with since they didn't want to turn on friends.
    Agreed.
    Agreed with one question. R u accusing the Jedi of not siding with the GA to help them win and that's their fault for prolonging the war or r u saying the Jedi should have stepped in harder sooner?
    This CAN be true, but I don't believe it necessarily is. What is any sovereign entity to do? Not have a defense ready to go? I feel this is a jab at USA, and I don't think we go looking for enemies at all. Do we keep a standing military and weapons, yes, but it's bc u can't be caught with your pants down. Does it make others also have to do that, probably, but that's just the way the world works, bc like I said, you can't be sitting around and suddenly get your citizens whacked by an unexpected enemy with no ability for you to strike back.

    EDIT: just a small nitpick, but at this point in this book, I'm just doing it bc I think the book deserves this hahaha

    so p.350....Fett thought of a Jedi agent named Kubariet,.....the letter "a" in this line indicates this is probably the first time Fett is thinking of some random Jedi from his past....but Kubariet has been mentioned multiple times by the Mandos in this book already, and I'm pretty sure Fett has been present for those convos
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  15. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Chapter 18, Jacen's story back on Coruscant......wow, just wow

    1) I get that the point is supposed to be shocking how Jacen, once so empathetic towards animals, is now totally on board with droids being his only useful companions, but all that reminds me is that this is sooo not Jacen and such a huge change/retcon
    2) the Holo footage shows that the public is actually being made aware of Jacen's crazy ways, so the talk that it's suppressed seems like it's getting paper thin...but the future of this topic lays ahead as we see how this plays out with the public
    3) once again, Jacen is pathetically justifying his actions, and yes I get he wants to think himself good and needing to do this, but it doesn't play well with me, the reader, I'm just like shut up, you're evil!!!....and here's the problem I think with it, this is Jacen who we expect better from...I mean whenever u'r reading a book and the usual bad guy is like this u just know he's an idiotic/evil/uncaring/blinded bad guy u'r supposed to hate so who cares that he believes this viewpoint to justify himself, but this time is Jacen, a former hero, so you're just blown away he's using the same stupid reasonings (just read p.353 and tell me you don't roll your eyes at his justifications)
    4) u can actually see that this is the point where he's probably about to go off the rails bc he's just taking full control now (using the EM act again to disband meetings since he is the govt.) and it's ironic since he also says this is the proof of his destiny, yep it is, to lose Jacen, to lose idiot
    5) oh and one last thing, I like Shevu a lot, but one question...Jacen is so OP and can read everybody's feeings it seems, so it just seems strange to me that Shevu is able to fool Jacen since he's not even Force-sensitive, not to mention Jacen blabbers everything to him like a fool also, yea, Jacen is losing it, Shevu better not side with him now though!
     
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  16. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    not trying to overtake posts but since I did start this thread, I figured I had some leeway, and I want to keep certain posts separate and I just finished Revelation so this is my review post....

    1) This book was real slow at the early part, but it did pick up later
    2) I missed Han/Leia, they are some of my favorite parts in this series
    3) I'm very disappointed with the split proportions of the GA as I have already noted, whether it's plausible or not based off viewpoint of story, it just sucks that so many people sided with Jacen
    4) the Mando stuff DID NOT pay off at all, Jaina barely learns anything from Fett, and also the bigger Mando world stuff was totally unimportant to this story at all bc I never needed to know Mando world building or even Fett's past for Jaina's story or for taking down Jacen, the only thing Jaina really learns is how to fight furiously (from Bevin not Fett) and then how to square her thoughts on why she's fighting Jacen (from Kadi'ka not Fett) so Fett was pointless except as a means to the real end....and I'd also argue that what she learns from Kadi'ka isn't so hard to realize yourself anyway.....and I also doubt any Mando stuff is in Invincible either since it's always only in Traviss' books so this is the end of it and it didn't warrant all the time spent on it
    5) I still hate that Pallaeon was offed and that Daala is back too, what a horrible IR replacement except to make the IR the bad guys again....I hear that seems to be the point though
    6) I know this was to prolong the series, but I'm still at a loss that it took to this moment and all this work by Ben for everyone to believe Mara was killed by Jacen.....IDC that other possible evidence indicated it was Alema, there was always evidence it was possibly Jacen and the possibility of Alema killing Mara, hahahahahaha, yet everyone ignored the fact it could be Jacen instead
    7) also, I'm tired of hearing Mara was wrong for going after Jacen, yes in a black/white legal way yes, in the SW universe where the big bad is a Sith and has attempted to harm your son, heck no, it's called a preemptive strike
    8) and I'm just at my breaking point still of lack of caring about the GFFA at all since it's a bunch of amoral jerks who'd side with the Jacen's/GFFA attitude, I just want the Jedi to be done with them, but like I've also said, IDK how you write good stories if the Jedi do nothing but sit around bc the galaxy isn't worth saving.....
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    [QUOTE="OutsiderJediSam, post: 54943829, member: 1431555" ]Please remind me exactly who is Wyvern battle group? For clarification purposes thanks.[/quote]

    When Niathal calls a cease fire and Caedus calls on the Remnant not to honour it, the Wyvern battle group - probably a task force build around a Destroyer titled Wyvern - went to his aid and Pellaeon had to ordered them back. Indicating that soldiers were already obeying the Moffs over him even when he was alive.

    [QUOTE="OutsiderJediSam, post: 54943829, member: 1431555" ]Agreed def. about Daala, I can't stand her. But, I feel this is ignoring an equal co-COS Niathal is also a part of this delegation.[/quote]

    True; and she retains the Ocean and the Bounty and her personal task force, at least.

    [QUOTE="OutsiderJediSam, post: 54943829, member: 1431555" ]Agreed with one question. R u accusing the Jedi of not siding with the GA to help them win and that's their fault for prolonging the war or r u saying the Jedi should have stepped in harder sooner?[/quote]

    I feel as if the Jedi are not taking into account that they are dictating to three or four Galactic superpowers and establishing their own to force the issue. There should be, and will be, consequences. Darth Caedus is subsuming the entire issue of the war by being a monster, and it’s becoming worse.

    They should have planned to end the war rather than perpetuate it.

    [QUOTE="OutsiderJediSam, post: 54943829, member: 1431555" ]This CAN be true, but I don't believe it necessarily is. What is any sovereign entity to do? Not have a defense ready to go? I feel this is a jab at USA, and I don't think we go looking for enemies at all. Do we keep a standing military and weapons, yes, but it's bc u can't be caught with your pants down. Does it make others also have to do that, probably, but that's just the way the world works, bc like I said, you can't be sitting around and suddenly get your citizens whacked by an unexpected enemy with no ability for you to strike back.[/quote]

    Couldn’t have less of an opinion about perceived US militancy or the historic Civil War. I have zero opinion on it.

    But the NR/GA won the Vong War with five allied fleets and three dreadnoughts.

    The LotF era GA had seven standing fleets. Two more were donated by the Hapans, and it kept two at home. The Confederation, former members of the GA - Corellia, Bothawui, Commenor, Fondor, the Hutts - fielded eight fleets. The Wookiee’s had their own fleet, and the Remnant fielded four fleets. That’s twenty four fleets, and that’s before I count the three or five dreadnoughts floating around.

    We’re talking five times the strength the GA had to end the Vong War. Yes, that was a close battle, but still - thats an insane level of militancy compared to the NR which also ended the First Civil War with five federal fleets and three dreadnoughts again.

    By this point easily half of that number has been lost. Which is horrifyingly high casualties for the militaries of each side.

    There’s a defence and then there is escalation. The GA pooling the galaxies resources is not a wrong point, but it clearly came too late; after the galaxy had already rearmed, and then to try and enforce that edict with guns... as Exile saw, when the Solo-Skywalker-Antilles-Horn family sat down and looked at the causes of the war: the confrontation was inevitable.

    I cannot personally see how you can resolve the idea of a pooled defence and someone refusing to contribute when that someone is about to win an arms race with its superweapon and secret assault fleet. You just can’t let them go. Throw in a powerful Sith Lord and the entire confrontation spirals - as it did with the Clone Wars.

    Forewarned is forearmed, yes, but it also can lead to a foregone conclusion.

    Here it did.

    Save for a handful of moments surrounding Jacen, it was almost impossible to prevent what happened in my eyes.


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  18. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    On Wyvern, thanks for the insight....that answers that for me, I can see your point from a certain pov haha, but one destroyer also isn't indicative of an entire fleet from mine

    On Niathal's remaining force, yes she has that, feels very small though compared to the ones that backed Jacen, as I said, my pov is that it shouldn't have been so disproportioned, but that's an opinion thing too

    On the Jedi, agreed, jw, how do you think they should have "ended the war"

    On the fleet stuff....ok, sorry my mistake on the USA thing, but wow, just wow, u are very detailed in knowing the fleet statuses....see, I have no idea on that stuff, how do u keep such good track of it??? and I def. agree that this endpoint was sorta inevitable with how Correllia was doing the shady stuff in the background and the GFFA's massive force that wanted to stop that and then Jacen too
     
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  19. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    One thing that interested me was that Gavin Darklighter seemed to be a Caedus loyalist.
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    He's a Fleet Junkie.
     
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  21. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    yea to me the fleets just exist, I assume the GFFA has a bigger one than the Confederation simply bc they're the entire GFFA and the Confederation is only a few seceeders....so on the Niathal/Jacen split, I expected the majority of the GFFA military to side with the sane Admiral co-COS and the GAG/few others to side with the unhinged, leaning crazy/evil dude, color me idiotic I guess
     
  22. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    That seems kind o' harsh.
     
  23. Nom von Anor

    Nom von Anor Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 7, 2012
    Please tell me you're NOT joking. This may be the most stupidly hilarious thing I've read all day - or week. [face_laugh]

    (I endured the first seven books of LOTF and then gave up. I won't be returning to the series so I don't mind spoilers.)
     
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  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The galactic alliance of the GA era was more militarized but also far more susceptible to schisms-what with the Caedus-Niathal split and fleet politicking.
     
  25. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Caedus was just a Caeser-like figure that the people came to support. Happens in times of unrest. The Galaxy has been a spinward towards totalitarianism since the Vong Invasion.
     
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