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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    His descendant was also a evil tyrant that tried to kill trillions of civilians. I always found the whole Emperor Fel thing to be pretty ludicrous. Jaina becoming Empress goes against everything her father and mother fought for.
     
  2. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    honestly there was very little that happened after TUF that I didn't find ludicrous
     
  3. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Like say....

    Force Lightning is still bad, right Uncle Luke?
    Nope, fry the ****er Jaina.
     
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  4. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    The Joiner King was a mess of a non sequitur.
     
  5. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Actually it was Mara that used Force Lightning on Jwlio. So did Luke, as well as Force Choking Welk before realizing that he was turning into his father again.
     
  6. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017


    You're right in what actually happened in the book. I think Jedi Ben was just making a joke about the absurdity of the philosophy though. It's something you could imagine being discussed b/t Luke and Jaina in training at the Temple.
     
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  7. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Yeah, I was taking the mick - it wasn't a statement of fact.
     
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  8. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Sorry, I've been gone for a bit, board seems to have died down, maybe I can get it started back up....thoughts on Jacen in Bloodlines....

    as said before, it's just mind boggling to me how he's already just full fledge "I'm going to be Sith" to save the galaxy....that's a special kind of stupid to me.....plenty other options

    1) be a Jedi and save the galaxy, make Jedi decisions (plenty of past examples to draw on)
    2) recognize the warnings of being bad like being dictatorial, straight up killing a prisoner for info, turning a kid against his father, totally disregarding the leader of your order, Lumiya telling you to be a Sith and even using Vader as an example who you know was evil, Lumiya telling you how to turn the kid against his father, etc
    3) using some restraint when dealing with this issue, I mean he's full blown let's just kill/intern/arrest anyone that's against us in the slightest, just blockade them and punish them into obedience, let's bust down doors and what not, dear jesus....guess Jacen doesn't believe in diplomacy at all
    4) also I know it's a retcon really, but the whole fact that Jacen thinks this was Vergere's beliefs and talks about how it fits with what she taught him is just pure crap!!! it isn't!!!

    Also, the whole Lumiya thing is just especially annoying to me
    1) she's a dark Jedi from Luke's past, of course she's evil, come on Jacen!!!!
    2) this illusion thing is just infuriating to me bc it just seems so OP for someone who is a has been dispatched already forgotten bad person....I mean she's able to use it on Luke, Mara, Jacen, etc
    3) and now she's gonna influence the Jedi Council???? Jedi Masters??? yea ok......

    Just in passing too, Boba's daughter, I know the storyline will deal with the fallout later, but for her fate to happen just so quietly in that way halfway through a book while knowing that Boba is looking for her elsewhere feels like a huge lost opportunity in what the story was attempting to write
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  9. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Jacen has a reason to be skeptical of Lumiya, but I'll give them that I find it believable that he would hear her out. The problem is we are given no reason for him to be skeptical of Luke. But at the end of Betrayal, he's essentially shifted toward trusting Lumiya more than he trusts Luke. And that's extremely problematic given his experience with his uncle and Luke's accomplishments.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  10. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    it's not that he hears her out to begin with, it's that he accepts what she says to him, if he uses half his brain and experience in life, he should know what she says it's crap

    and totally agree on Luke, it's like he thinks Luke is an idiot and is just absolutely wrong with any belief he has, and the question is why? but that's never answered
     
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  11. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Luke and Jacen were in a distrust circle since the Dark Nest Trilogy. Lumiya stepped into that - however Jacen also killed Nelani to prevent a vision where he killed Luke.

    As to his decision to become a Sith. He agonised over this. The entirety of Bloodline is about him taking a step to be sure that Lumiya is right - that Vader was an emotional mess, that the galaxy was coming off its wheels yet again in spite of Luke’s best efforts.

    She provided Jacen with a viewpoint that he could not invalidate without taking those very steps. It was also one which validated Vergere’s behaviour for him. Let alone that he and a galaxy of people wanted more control of the future - to avoid another disaster like the last war.

    Say why you will, but the Empire, and Centrist thinking, as well as militarism, all obtained a massive boost by the New Republic in essence invalidating the argument for a peaceful, Populist, demilitarised galaxy during the Vong War.

    Jacen was making utilitarian decisions from the moment he returned from his travels. The Sith Way was purely the culmination of that to him. The ultimate act of sacrificing himself to save the galaxy - to reunify it against him.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I just wish they took more time for Jacen to distance from Luke. Like you said he killed Nelani to prevent that, but he also expresses skepticism about his uncle to Lumiya. The fundamental nature of their relationship is essentially him placing her higher than Luke, and I wish they spent more time on that before having Jacen descend into straight villainy.

    My biggest criticism is with how Jacen is written. He was already primed to be a villain with DNT and Betrayal/Bloodlines. He's a pragmatic utilitarian/consequentialist. My first problem is I don't think that fits Jacen as in the NJO and I wish it was a different character. But accepting that, he's already great as a villain if you just lean into that. Instead he slowly became Kylo Ren. He doesn't need to be Kylo Ren for it to work!

    Edit: plus as per usual I have the general issues with the Vergere retcon yadda yadda ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  13. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    1) I agree with @DigitalMessiah that the issue b/t Luke and Jacen is in stark contrast to NJO and all prior relationship b/t the two.....yes, it's established in TDN but that also flew in the fact of all previous stuff and also not a good progression from the end of NJO Jacen

    2) I'm just saying, I'm reading Bloodlines right now and I don't see him agonizing over it other than a few mentions that he must do all this bad for some future good and immediately being ok with moving forward....I wouldn't personally call that agonizing

    3) Couldn't invalidate without taking the steps? So if a bad person challenges me, and it seems the only way I can prove them wrong is make bad decisions, I should????

    4) I don't agree at all with a premise that just bc a group calls for militarism that invalidates the other side's argument. Maybe you just mean in the viewpoints of the characters. The real answer is a middle ground of course.

    5) Oh I agree that is the Jacen we are given, my complaint is that's not the best way it could have been portrayed for a nine book series.
     
  14. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I'm just saying, Jacen is a blind idiot, but he's not alone....a lot of people can walk down very bad paths either ignoring all the warning signs, not believing there's a better way, or just pure believing they are the one that can navigate it effectively....

    what he tells himself to assure his conscience is laughable though.....I'm reading Bloodlines Chp 17.....

    and I know I haven't posted in awhile so I'm sorta hyped on letting it flow so I'm sorta just responding on here as I read right now.....Chp. 17 Jacen shooting that civilian transport when Jaina didn't want him to and then relieving her of duty......it's getting harder to just take this....the big question I have here is this is OBVIOUS he's off the rails, so why don't Luke, Mara, Jedi Council, Jaina, all of the Jedi just stop him, they all still seem unsure if he's really got issues....
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  15. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I'm infuriated at how Jacen is leading Ben at this age even though I know it's SW and Ben has already been doing things....and I'm not even a parent, I can't imagine how any parent would react while reading this.....and I can't stand it that Luke/Mara aren't doing anything either!!!
     
  16. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Don’t triple post.

    1. The deterioration of Jacen and Luke’s relationship occurred in DNT. We saw that, incident for incident.

    2. Flow walking to see Vader, however many times, debating with himself about the next steps including what the difference would be between him using an arcane technique and becoming a Sith, testing Lumiya’s intentions, his journal entry to Jaina, and his final scene with Lumiya and the candle. The book is about the conflict.

    3. Rather clearly not. But Jacen had been a Jedi for years and things were not getting better. He also knew about the future, and was seeking to avoid that. Lumiya has presented a perfectly logical argument and had been a Sith for decades without turning into a megalomaniac. As had Vectivus. As had, she argued, Vergere. Jacen took this on-board and chose the Sith way to bring Order.

    4. That is the real answer. The situation was being taken advantage of by Jacen, by Lumiya, by Niathal, by Sal-Solo, by Gejjen. Even by Saxan. The middle ground was undermined and more extreme circumstances were forced upon each side until they had escalated beyond the point of no return.

    5. I get that.

    It’s not obvious. The civilian transport had shot at them. He shot it down. Yes he shot it down while it was fleeing, which is shaky on moral grounds, but it is not above reproach in the moment.

    Luke and Mara had an argument about this in this novel. Mara disagreed with Luke about Jacen - she reasoned he was having a messy love affair. Which was also correct. But it masked his descent to her. Mara was also aware that Jacen he coaxed Ben to use the Force and she was grateful for that. Luke and Mara have this disagreement throughout the arc.

    You do need to keep in mind that the gap between Betrayal and Sacrifice is about three months. It’s not a long time whatsoever. Events were moving very fast, which limits Luke’s ability to respond. It limits everyone’s ability to do anything but react. To Centerpoint; to the Talus rout; to the bombing on Coruscant; to the attack on Hapes; to the Confederation forming; to Cal approaching Gejjen, and on the other foot - the attack on Corellia to force regime change; the invasion of Talus; the attack on the peace meeting; then the GAG sweeps; then the blockade; then the GA attacks; the assassination of Gejjen; the GA coup. The galaxy is swept along by a staccato of events which had been brewing for a decade - as Leia herself concluded, the conflict was genuine, and would have happened regardless of the puppet master.


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  17. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    okay, I've gotten this remark a couple of times about multiple posting.....what can you do if the edit function is already gone? no post again until someone else has had a chance to post??? I'm sorry that maybe others haven't said anything, but I want to say something else again. I did edit the 2nd post bc it still allowed editing.

    1. I agreed that it was all shown in TDN. As many have said and I also said, the issue here really stems from there too, we don't think it works well as a progression from NJO Jacen which is what I already said in the previous post.
    2. I see the things you're pointing at. I can see how they could be taken your way. To me though, he's trying to follow the Sith way w/o falling prey to Vader's failures. That's the same as trying to follow evil in this world, yet trying to think you're doing something good. It's being blind, idiotic, and arrogant all at the same time. He should be smarter than that. Everyone should. I know they're not. I also think the arrogance concept is a huge key just bc Jacen is totally lieing to himself if he thinks he's "testing" Lumiya/flow-walking only for the good of the galaxy. He's also showing off his powers. At least it reads to me that way.
    3. I don't but that Lumiya's argument is perfectly logical. I see the faults in it immediately. It is simply an alternative that hasn't been tried. There are always alternatives but some are obviously not a good idea. (Ex. My microwave is broken so let me just set my table on fire to warm my food.) Also, is there any proof she's not a megalomaniac other than her word (a Sith's remind you) or that her story about Vectivus is true?
    4. and 5. Agreed

    Oh, I get the "technically" Jacen was right just like Luke said. But come on, of course he was wrong!!! You would've done it? You wouldn't have done what Jaina did? I know I would have followed Jaina!!!

    And Mara was an idiot not to notice. Heck, if that causes Jacen to act that way, dear gosh. "I'm having an affair, let me become a dictator.", Mara should be worried. Also, just saying, I know that was said to be the reason early, but has that even been mentioned again in Bloodlines. Jacen doesn't even talk about it. So the fact Mara still thinks it is that is weird to me. And I know the time span is short IU, but it's still 600 pages(2 books) for the reader. That is not the Mara that was originally written. That is the Mara that was turned into Luke's clingy wife that is more "woman" than hero. Not that I believe in "woman" being proper or wrong, but you can have feelings without being what she has become. If Mara is so blind bc of that one grateful thing Jacen did, that's sad too to me.

    About the timing and Luke's ability to react. Oh I'd get it that if he tried, maybe it wouldn't work bc the galaxy is in this turmoil and the GFFA has backing. However, he's seen what Jacen is doing and knows it's not the Jedi way, as GM of the Jedi, he should be doing something even if it's just talking to Jacen or Jedi discipline of some type. If Jacen left the Order to continue so be it.

    Well some of the stuff you mentioned about the full arc I haven't obviously gotten to yet.
     
  18. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    One thing in Betrayal I did find strange was that Jacen never directly(at least as far as I remember) thinks of Allana and Tenel Ka. He does tell Nelani "he has someone" but other than that neither Tenel Ka or Allana appear and they aren't directly referenced in the book.

    Which is odd because supposedly a lot of Jacen's motivations for going dark was Allana's future. Yet here she is around five or so and he doesn't so much as factor her and his secret lover into his decision making?
     
  19. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Okay, thoughts on Bloodlines. I remember being quite interested in the events while reading the book early on. However, I put the book down over the holidays and just picked it back up and finished it. So now....

    1) What really happens in this book? It feels like nothing. Jacen is just doing bad things. The GFFA and Corellia are slowly heading to war. Luke is concerned about Jacen. Jacen and Ben go on a few arrests. Boba Fett travels around. Han and Leia hide. I'm at the end and I just don't feel like this book moved anything forward much. The only big plot moments really are Jacen killing Fett's daughter, which just seems throwaway in the moment, but matters later although not much is done with that either. Thracken Sal-Solo is finally killed but somewhat underwhelmingly for all the EU he's been a part of, and it's quick also and just moves on immediately. Also, Jacen grounding Jaina just bc it creates a full rift, but once again, it's handled so quickly. The ending is important bc of the full rift b/t Han/Leia and Jacen, that's it. Oh, and Jacen's revelation at the end......

    2) Are you freaking kidding me? The last thing Lumiya tells Jacen he MUST do is have the COURAGE to KILL a loved one? That's ultimate selflessness? What the hades would that have to even do with bringing peace to the galaxy? This is my problem with Lumiya's teachings and Jacen buying the Sith teaching at all. Jacen literally immediately accepts. Oh he's sad about it, but no real questions about why? It's just obvious to him he MUST!! And that is ridiculous!!!

    This book suffers from the worst thing ever.....being a waste. I look back at this book and think, did it matter that I read it? Did it require that I read it to know what is going on? I'm not sure it did.
     
  20. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I think the book matters for shifting Jacen toward Caedus, like @Sinrebirth says. I just wish Jacen as the villain was more this and less Kylo Ren. And the next book, Tempest, starts out with Jacen going full Kylo Ren after the World Brain dies. I found it to be quite a shift.
     
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  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    What did everyone think of Jacen's letter to Jaina-I thought it was bizarre. "Hey Sis I've become a Sith for the greater good, please understand uh" and then he deletes the letter.

    I'd love to see a fanfic where he actually sends it and the consequences of that.
     
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  22. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    yea def. seemed weird to me too
     
  23. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Can you imagine if just thoughtlessly instead of delete he accidentally hit send? Informing his sister unintentionally?