Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Geesh, sorry I have my own opinion. I'll just ask you what's the truth from now own.

Just saying though, it's sad I feel ran off a board I started. Just looking to discuss Star Wars and.....now I just want to leave.

 

You'd be making a mistake Sam. Understand that Sinny loves making this stuff work, even the most horrendous, mind-numbingly awful plot twist ever - he will try to make it work.

And all he's doing is sharing his take on this for you to read - that's all. You're not required to change your mind.

You've more-or-less posted: A, B, C of book X can't work, it makes no sense whatsoever!

All Sinny's been doing, in effect: Have you considered looking it at this way?

Let me finish by putting it like this: I'm never going to read the rest of LOTF, FOTJ or Crucible. Those books are infamous, but I can still enjoy reading Sinny's creative perspective on them and do.

 

Truly the best part of the fandom. The sharing of ideas and perspectives. Everyone is different and experience things differently. They might give you another perspective on things. @Onderon1 several months ago for example posted a look at Jacen's fall and put things from Jacen's life from JAT, YJK, NJO, DNT, LOTF into a perspective that I could possibly buy the whole Jacen falls arc. Never would have thought about it that way before.

 

Thanks @Jedi Ben and @Force Smuggler !!!!

My problem isn't that Sinny has a different opinion. That is fine. And I know that sometimes intention is mistaken with posts in words only. I never meant to say my interpreations were right and others weren't. If someone gave a good other answer, I'd more than happy look into it. What bothered me about Sinny was when he used certain degrading terms.

Ex. - I am going to justify the decisions in the books for you, if you wish to accept them. As with the ST, or the NJO, or FotJ, or even Legacy - some people simply disagree with what has happened, and the ‘how it has happened’ is nothing more or less than their way of expressing it, by pulling at every single thing within the series.

To me all of that is degrading and saying I must be stupid. That is what I am not okay with.

One of my issues was actually answered about Lumiya on another thread though. She has a lot of backstory in comics that I've never read. Having read only the novels, my knowledge of her isn't much. That's why she seemed so weirdly OP to me. But now I get that.

I still personally have the problem with Alema in simply surviving the TDN stuff based off what was presented at that time. But I know she's not the first to do it in SW and SW changes stuff like that all the time. She might very well be a great character to have in this book too. I acknowledge I react in moments but it's bc it might take me weeks to 2 months to read a whole book and I don't want to wait that long to post on something or I'll forget about it.

 

Write them in a document and post them at one time

 

It's a great idea really even though my initial thought was....ugh homework haha

 

IMO Jacen thought he needed to not make the same mistakes as Vader, but while he was busy making sure he wasn't doing that he fell into the same trap that Revan and Thrawn did. He saw this great calamity on the horizon, and wanted to protect the galaxy, but ultimately in his arrogance, he didn't allow anyone in on what he knew and he thought that the galaxy could only be saved if he ruled it, at any cost.

 

I seem to recall reading in my favorite LOTF fanfic-Only Right Jacen tells Ben that in a just Galaxy he and Mara would have fought together. But Jacen felt burdened to do what he felt needed to be done without help. And that was sad because his family could have helped him.

 

Bloody kid.

 

This is, I think, my biggest problem with LOTF. At no point in any of his previous appearances had Jacen ever been famous for his logic or emotional detachment. Jania had nerves of steel, Anakin had the family's heroic flair, but Jacen was all heart. It's the entirety of what Stover based Traitor on. That book ended with Jacen committing both himself and the universe to a course of illogic, of feeling and instinct rather than calculation.

I don't want to besmirch the good names of any of the VIPs that come here, but VERY loose editing seemed to be a trademark of LOTF, and to a lesser extent the NJO. Major plot points did not line up or happened off screen, several characters spun in circles over multi-book arcs, and two authors got into a lightsaber-measuring context over their favorite characters. Of course a publisher wants to give their writers freedom, but it's pretty clear they needed to run a tighter ship.

 

Agreed. I'm not sure at what point the authors decided to make him a logic-based character, but that's when he really became "JINO," as so many fans coin him.

 

okay, admit it's taking a one moment thing, but once again, looking at it from at writing perspective....

Tempest pg. 14 - Alema specifically references knowing Lumiya built a lightwhip (and I'd say then it's assumed used as her weapon from then on)

Tempest pg. 92 - The Sith (this is Lumiya) scowled and ignited her own weapon - an exotic one that seemed equal parts whip and lightsaber....for reference, this chapter is told in Alema's pov

To me, that reads as if the sight of this weapon is supposed to be a new and shocking thing for Alema and the reader. Yet, we already know what Lumiya's weapon is from previous in this book and from all the other material about Lumiya that apparently exists.

So, for writing, it doesn't seem to work in flow with previous writing, right? Why would you have a shock about something the character and reader already know. Just describe the what the weapon looks like (BOLD to me is what makes it sound shocking).

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not the only time something like that happened in LOTF (or FOTJ, or honestly any series for that matter). It's one thing to happen from book to book, but yeah, within the same book, just a few chapters removed, it is pretty irritating. Can't say I'd noticed that particular incident before. Good catch!

 

I imagine the readers know what Lumiya's weapon is but we are reading from Alema's POV and she seemed to have never seen it before.

 

The more I dive into LOTF, the more frustrating I find Denning's writing. Such inconsistencies though are definitely evident between his work and Traviss', as @Revanfan1 alluded to.

 

Does anyone have sources on what went on in the writers room of LOTF? We know Denning pushed for Jacen dying unredeemed and for the more violent cynical tone of the series and clashed quite obviously with Traviss?

But it would be nice to know what was happening-what the opinions of the editors were, the authors involved, the debates, any potential dropped or at least half discussed ideas, etc...

 

There's a round robin interview at the end of Inferno but I don't think there's any negativity mentioned there.

 

Yeah that's the interview where Denning said that if fans didn't like the violence they could basically read something else.

 

I'm glancing through it now and a few things stick out that make me laugh:

- Allston says that TDN and Legacy series were used a bit with LOTF "but we're not setting up their plotlines in our series."
Tell that to Denning, eh?

- All three authors make note of how awesome the two editors are, that they "can see the wood for the trees" (Traviss) and "work the hardest to make sure that all the minor-but-inevitable differences of interpretation in our initial story notes get ironed out." (Denning)
Laughs hysterically because the differences are sometimes FAR from minor. Though I guess the overall plot of Jacen = Sith moves along quite steadily

- Denning & Traviss are quick to say that there aren't many disagreements as they're focused on the series, "not individual interests"


@Darth Invictus - I looked through it twice and didn't see anything from TD saying anything remotely like that

 

Maybe I recall something from a different interview or maybe I'm badly paraphrasing something he said. I dunno I'd have look at it more detail later.

 

I can buy that she's never seen it before, which is why I said it could be described. But, also, like I said, earlier in this exact book Alema says she knows Lumiya has a lightwhip. Yet in that 2nd passage she uses terms that seem to indicate she doesn't even know what the weapon she is looking at is....if the writer dropped those terms and just described it no issue...just seems to me like a simple obvious writing technique that was overlooked

 

Maybe it was a writing error-sometimes they happen.

 

Yea, this is more a general writing issue. Should they happen? I mean these are supposed to be professional writers. Then you have editors and publishers who should overlook all this too. So, why do you see these so often in books? Or at least SW books. I can't make mistakes like this in my job and keep it. Just saying.

 

Okay, I took the advice of @SWpants and wrote down everything I thought as I read and then examine it when I had completed Tempest and post my thoughts on it then....thanks for that good info @SWpants

so my review of Tempest.....first the positive - maybe I just love SW overall too much but as almost always, the book was overall enjoyable to read, it kept me interested and invested, and I was happy to be in this universe, and I'd say that the best overall thing about the book itself was the plot was a good plot with it using the issue with Hapes to bring Jacen's immediate family into conflict with his extended family. Most of everything felt very natural in progression too throughout the book with a few issues I'll get too.

Now the issues...
1) I'll get this out of the way...a lot of positions held by various people throughout this series don't seem to change much over the span of the 1st 3 books regardless of the events that play out.... Mara is "blind", Ben is "starry-eyed" to Jacen, Jacen is "bad" already, etc
2) I have to talk about Alema...so yes, they did give a good explanation on how she survived, but I personally don't think SHE was important to the plot of this book, any new dark sider could have filled her role, so bringing her back was a pure shock value thing unless she gets a fuller role down the line....unless you feel it was necessary for her to be able to come see Jacen at the end of the book, I don't, unless something else comes of it
3) I hate that Jaina is once again just rarely used, she goes to Hapes to investigate, just sent away, given one good scene at that compound, but when her and Zekk escape, they're just stranded AGAIN, and we don't see them again until someone else rescues them
4) I'm just going to have to learn to accept contradictions with what came before (Ex. - Lumiya telling Jacen about Vergere's and her plans - but this was the stupidest part of the book to me - I'm thinking, Jacen, you should see all the problems with her claims right here!!!
5) I know it's a Denning thing, but he likes too much unneeded violence....not a fan of killing off Lobi (she should have fled, more important to get info to Luke than stay and fight) and definitely didn't need all the crossfire deaths in Lumiya/Luke fight, and he killed the Noghri who I really liked and am getting tired of being cannon fodder in the EU
6) I pretty much went from liking Ben Skywalker to despising him after that scene on the Falcon, thanks for that Denning
7) Also, I know fights need to be interesting but I'm not feeling Luke/Mara vs. Lumiya/Alema goes down like that....I'm sensing a beat down!!
8) The ending discussion b/t everyone makes sense in universe, but as an outside reader who knows Jacen's arguments are lies, it's irritating...maybe that's good writing, I wish that made me feel better