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Lit LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I don't deny that's the authors' reasons. Like I said, I personally just can't relate so it's an issue to me. Many others may be able to relate very well. H/e I still question the exact scene, since he leaves a little girl to die in the wilderness with the vapid excuse of his mission is more important. Is that really 14 year old adolescence? Or borderline sociopathic behavior?

    I followed my older cousin around star eyed at one point. If he looked at girls, I looked too. If he cussed, I did too. If he had shot a man, I think I'd have reconsidered.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  2. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I imagine that was Jacen's negative influence shining through.
     
  3. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Well of course that's where it comes from. Ben even says it's what Jacen would do. I just don't really feel anyone, 14 yr old or not, even with a bad influence but being star eyed towards that influence, would make such a choice as that in that situation and justify it to themselves. I feel it paints the character in very bad light in a way that fundamentally hurts said character in the view of the reader moving forward, or at least it does to me.

    That's what I'm really trying to say I think. For me personally, the son of Luke Skywalker, a character I want to love, is doing a bunch of stuff that makes me dislike him and I hate that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  4. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 19, 2015
  5. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    yes, probably unfortunately
     
  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Ben wasn't perfect and Jacen's influence in the LOTF era wasn't certainly good for him. As it is he was somewhat estranged from his parents and being around Jacen made him develop a somewhat cold attitude towards those "in the way"

    I think you underestimate what adolescents are capable of and what scary attitudes they can adopt if put in the right(or rather wrong) environment.
     
  7. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Maybe you're right, I sorta feel like I'm being a broken record here though. I've said multiple times it's a thing for me, and I know others don't see it that way or just I have a hard time seeing it a certain way since I haven't been through that. Your statements seem to indicate to me that you think I don't get that though. It's probably just the way things come off in word format though. So it's all cool really.

    Just finished reading another part....please tell me that Leia, Corran, Jaina, Zekk, and Jag wanted Alema to escape....otherwise the fact that she was able to evade all of them in her condition screams plot necessity or idiot plan on their part.....neither seems a good choice
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  8. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    I feel like you'll really appreciate Ben's development following the events of Sacrifice. At that point he became my favorite member of the third-generation Skywalker family (assuming Anakin/Padme is first-generation) and that continued on to FOTJ, where he's definitely the best-written character in that series, except for the one scene everyone's been mentioning. He was unfortunately underused in the final chronological book, Crucible, and used a bit poorly at that, but his overall characterization from Sacrifice (heck, even the end of Exile) to the end of FOTJ is probably the best part of the post-NJO main series novels.
     
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  9. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Hey I just finished Exile. Time for my thoughts on it.

    1) Personally, this book felt mostly like filler. I'm not sure any major necessary events occurred that really pushed the story farther. Events just happened. That's not to say it was a boring read, just a little disappointing looking back at the end feeling I really could have skipped it and not missed much. I will say it didn't really feel like an Allston book. I wonder why it was so different.

    2) Now at the end, I can finally see the beginning of Ben not auto taking everything Jacen tells him as ultimate truth which is good. However, that is all up in the air for now since the next book will make this pay off or make me wait longer for it.

    3) The ending feels very rushed. The last scenes at the supposed meeting could have been really good with all the characters coming together. It just all happens so fast in the last chapter and it's all over in a matter of pages.

    4) I'm actually happy with Jacen's ending just bc at least he pretty much owns being a truth evil Sith now. It's no more of hey, I'm doing this for the good of the galaxy, how noble of me. Now, he's happy with killing his parents bc they're a nuisance to him personally.

    5) Small thing, the Ziost ship Ben is flying in, cool concept with it's attachment to the Force, h/e I have no clue how to picture that thing in my head. I sorta hate that. I guess I'll have to look it up if I can find it.

    6) Alema Rar still has me at a loss. She seems way too OP/lucky for a failed Jedi who did nothing but become a Joiner (which shouldn't improve Force abilities) and get hacked up quite bad on various occasions, yet she's still alive and kicking and constantly survives confrontations with really well trained Jedi in peak condition

    7) Last thing, this is another thing I know will require further story to fully understand, but for now, I'm at a loss about the Lumiya revelation to Luke that she holds no malice....I have a hard time believing she doesn't, and I have a hard time believing she could shield it from Luke so I'm worried about the explanation....

    that's all, feel free to comment!!!
     
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  10. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    The authors do say it was their intent that Lumiya has no malice towards Luke (but I think it works better that she does and is just secretive about it).

    This is Ship:
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    thanks, admittedly, didn't picture that from what I was given in the book
     
  12. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Lumiya's relationship to Luke is in my opinion one of the most interesting parts of LOTF-she has every reason to be bitter to him. He had a life she was denied, heck he even married one of her former comrades in the Emperor's Hand. She repeatedly denies that she hates him or that she is acting out some revenge of a bitter ex girlfriend but is she really? And what if she is telling the truth-she really does hold no malice towards Luke or the skysolo family(at least not in a personal sense) but does what she does anyway.

    And her last line to Luke is very interesting-she's very calm and seemingly genuine "remember your oaths Luke it's all you have left in the end"

    I like to believe even though they were enemies she still respected him and at some level was jealous or at least bitter about Mara yet at the same time didn't hate him.

    And Luke was so kind in that he reminded her "I said I would never let you fall" which is poetic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  13. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    By now, most of you on this thread know I can nitpick I'm sure, but I just have a hard time with writing mistakes (aka retcons, 2 things that don't work together, etc.) I don't understand how a writer/editor misses them when writing. Especially, since in my job and I'm sure others, we get holy hell if we make mistakes, and we're expected to fix them.

    Anyway, found one in Tempest already....the setup is Jacen is trying to locate Ben after the events of Exile.....then he finds Ben and they are talking

    Tempest p. 9 - Ben's mission would have taken him...where, exactly? Ziost.
    Tempest p. 14 - "You did well, Ben." "I found it on Ziost....." The attempt on Ben's life didn't hit Jacen as hard as the mention of Ziost - the Sith homeworld. Jacen hadn't bargained on that....

    So first, Jacen's thoughts are that Ben might be on Ziost, no issues, doesn't seem to concern him at all. 5 pages later, I repeat 5 pages later, it's a big freaking deal he was on Ziost. How does the author make that mistake and forget in that little period? Ironic thing is, if it happened in a movie, we'd all explode in anger. Yet, a lot of people tell me it just happens in the books. I get made at both though!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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  14. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Luke isn't that kind considering what he does right after he says that line, which I won't spoil for the threadstarter. And that line has many levels of context.
     
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  15. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
  16. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    He could have said nothing at all-but he reminded her of what was between them even if it was brief and decades prior.

    Luke and Lumiya are quite tragic as a story of their relationship
     
  17. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    SACRIFICE spoilers
    Luke catches her, angrily says "I would have never let you fall," and beheads her.

    Luke is saying that he would never have pushed her to the dark side, but she has now succeeded in pushing him to the dark side, and he hates her for it.

    He also means he wouldn't let her fall, because he wanted her permanently dealt with forever, by murdering a defeated opponent.

    Luke acknowledges this let the dark side partially corrupt him, why he's afraid to confront Caedus later.

    I have not idea how you think it's romantic, or kind.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Remember that we're in an era where Twilight and 50 Shades is deemed 'romantic' Ghost. ;)
     
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  19. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Luke in the rebellion era was hopeful he could redeem her-obviously he failed. Yes he's bitter and hateful but that line doesn't make sense if one doesn't understand their tragic relationship.

    Lumiya in the scene isn't malicious-she is at peace and reminds Luke that his promises and oaths are what matters in the end-obviously any promise he made to redeem Shira Brie ended when Luke cut off her head. Yes he hates her-for killing his wife, driving him into darkness, and for making him fail.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2018
  20. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    1. You're not getting it.
    2. You should spoiler-tag, the threadstarter hasn't gotten this far yet.
     
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  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I using my phone and am admittedly ignorant of how to use spoilers.

    Anyway I'll hold off and wait till sacrifice before continuing this line of discussion.
     
  22. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    You need to learn ASAP, get your past post edited (though it might be too late), and refrain from posting spoilers at all in a thread about someone reading the books for the first time if you don't know how to spoiler tag... people have gotten banned for not using spoiler tags, ignorance isn't an excuse.
    [spoilerA]this is where you write[/spoilerA] without the A
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
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  23. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Test

    I see I think I have it now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
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  24. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    thanks @Ghost
     
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  25. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I have another question, LOTF is what I consider a main novel (focus on the main Skywalker/Solo and larger galaxy storyline) in the Legends timeline so why the heck am I reading this boring side story about side character, Boba Fett trying to find a cure for his dying??? his story took up a whole 3rd of Betrayal, and now I'm only into the first 100 pages of Tempest and it's so boring....I heard how Traviss had Mando love but why doesn't she just write Boba Fett stories then, why was she given main stories to write?
     
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