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Lit LOTF - First Time Read Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It'll tie in by the end of the series.
     
  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    A lot of moments in this series require accepting that it’s part of a series and they will gain weight as it goes on.


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  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Boba Fett's story ties pretty explicitly into the main plot of Bloodlines considering that Ailyn is killed by Jacen. The Solo/Fett team up is in Bloodlines too, IIRC?

    Not sure why that's a complaint. Not as though Zahn doesn't include Thrawn or Mara Jade or both in all his stories, except Scoundrels. Same with Denning and the Barabels. Or Allston and the fighter pilots. All three writers on this series have their characters that they're comfortable with using.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  4. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Yea, the first story was better bc it had the tie-in....

    There is a difference though, all those characters were central to the main story in the books they were in as well as the main story of the galaxy/Skywalker/Solo as I said. As was posted, if it ties in later, good, maybe I'll be able to look back at that point and be more content.

    Ex - Zahn made The Thrawn Trilogy where he was the main villain to the NR, and Mara became Luke's wife so of course she's a very important character in the Skywalker story and her early books that he wrote were known to be about her and how her job as Emperor's Hand kept her within arm's reach of the Rebellion plots

    Denning uses Barabels yes, but when have whole chunks of the book been devoted to just a story about them, Saba is incorporated in the main story in the books she's in, the others were part of the strike team to Mrykr and then Tesar is just one of the other Jedi that are around

    And Allston and fighter pilots, always uses them in the main story like in NJO where Luke, Jaina, Han/Leia are all there too, and then even in his first LOTF book it's how they interact in the main story of the Civil War....

    but like I said, and was posted, if it ties in later, that'll be good then, it doesn't seem to right now and is boring to me, if it's not to others, great
     
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  5. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I like how the GA used Fett’s resurgence to keep the GA together actually.

    Sacrifice spoiler as I don’t know how far you are into it.


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  6. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I'm still about only 165 pages into Sacrifice, but I've been wondering about this thread....not complaining but trying to figurre something out in my head....

    1) I 've constantly heard about all the hate post-NJO for TDN, LOTF, and FOTJ
    2) when I did my TDN thread as I read it, I saw a lot of that hate first hand as I posted also about not liking things that were happening
    3) now when I complain about LOTF on this thread, it does seem that I keep getting opinions that push back that indicate my complaints aren't valid per se(maybe not the right word please don't get hung up on that part)
    4) so jw about all the supposed "hate" for this series, those people just move on and not watching at this point? or was the hate overblown?
     
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  7. SWpants

    SWpants Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 28, 2004
    I thonk the hate was overblown by hate for FOTJ. I remember disliking the latter series a lot more. With LOTF, at least for me, I hate how:
    1. Jacen’s character completely changed from the boy we knew
    2. I wanted a “next gen” story and didn’t get much of that.

    We do with FOTJ, and that subseries starts out STRONG, but the content, if not characterization, is weak-or leaves a sour taste. I was excited to reread LOTF but am trepidatious about my current FOTJ reread.

    If that answers your question
     
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  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The whole DNT-LOTF-FOTJ-C era or mega arc was very controversial for a few main reasons.

    1. How it treated Jacen and by extension how it treated Vergere
    2. How it treated the next generation
    3. How it dealt with the consequences of the Vong War
    4. The increased violence and cynicism
    5. The fact that one author by the name of Troy Denning was basically calling the shots-hence the moniker Denningverse
    6. How it ended-people were not happy with Crucible
    7. The conflicts between the authors, inconsistencies and retcons
    8. FOTJ's lack of direction, and it's other issues
    9. And people had other complaints and criticisms

    Basically the whole period in post ROTJ novels from around 2005 to the very end of the old eu was a controversial, emotionally charged, and very much divisive period.

    As someone who lurked on the board for years before setting up an account(I was reading the lit forum in 2010) it was a very debated era-there were people that liked or loved all or part of it. Those that hated all of it and groups in between.
     
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  9. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The reality appears to be, as controversial as it was, there is all of a sudden not just the group of users that loved the arc originally, but also now a swell of users that were either not very vocal in the community or not very involved which rush to defend Legends with sticks now its gone, including those who enjoyed the arc and undoubtedly made each novel a bestseller. But it is much of what has been said above - the arc was incredibly controversial at the time and came at the same time as a comic series set eighty years after it with some similar beats - Legacy of the Force and Legacy both brought back the Sith and featured a Galactic Alliance in turmoil, with the Jedi on the back-foot simultaneously... and the comics referenced NJO more than LotF. A lot more.

    And as much as Jacen's arc was disliked, even more dislike was heaped on what came afterwards and even the most positive souls ends up with the opinion that Jacen's fall was not in and of itself a terrible idea, they simply ended up unhappy with how it came about, how it slotted into the post-NJO universe, and the subsequent consequences thereafter.

    I love it, however.

    Darth Caedus is brilliant, and the Apocalypse he wrought thereafter, and the consequences for the One Sith and their success remains one of the key points of the series.

    Just as much as the Ancient Sith era turns around Darth Revan, and the end of the Sith Wars around Darth Bane, the Tragedy of Jacen Solo is the turnin point of the post-Endor story, insofar as much as the post-Endor arc in the new canon fundamentally pivots around Kylo Ren.

    As you will see as events pan out.

    Brilliant question, by the way.
     
  10. SWpants

    SWpants Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2004
    7. The conflicts between the authors, inconsistencies and retcons[/QUOTE]

    All of those are my biggest hang-ups with these rereads.
    Not even just retcons, but so much has happened between the OT and the galactic timeline of these books that the consistent referencing of OT events makes me grind my teeth.

    A fact I completely forgot before now. Not having months between books, and being able to read them in succession, puts me a bit more in the same boat as you (for now), where I can appreciate and enjoy them a bit more.
     
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  11. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    All of those are my biggest hang-ups with these rereads.
    Not even just retcons, but so much has happened between the OT and the galactic timeline of these books that the consistent referencing of OT events makes me grind my teeth.

    A fact I completely forgot before now. Not having months between books, and being able to read them in succession, puts me a bit more in the same boat as you (for now), where I can appreciate and enjoy them a bit more.[/QUOTE]
    I think the later books referenced the OT more for marketing reasons than anything-you want new readers to have a point of a reference which will most likely be the OT so you have the characters reference and refer to it.
     
  12. SWpants

    SWpants Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Mph, that makes sense.
    It's still very irritating.
     
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  13. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Looking at my complains so far in line with this:
    1) I actually enjoy the concept of Jacen's fall, my complaint is the retcon from NJO and the story or his fall sometimes feels like Jacen's an idiot for believing this is a good idea....and while I could buy Vergere was a Sith personally, I can't accept the retcon that she is when she wasn't in the past books and the story of how she is is just implausible
    2) My biggest complaint here is still the lack of use of Jaina, as I've said before, she my favorite of the Solo children so I'd love to see her get more to do
    3) Another retcon basically so yea it's an issue to me
    4) I know this is a Denning thing, my biggest complaint here is not so much the violence but the lack of the main characters caring about it....like I said, it's surprisingly sad that neither side seems all that concerned they are not fighting who they once considered allies (think how people might have felt during the American Civil War)
    5 and farther) just reading it now pretty much unaware but have heard of these issues with Denning and obviously have yet to get to FOTJ stuff
     
  14. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I thought that was more so a problem with the Disney buy-out, same as Legacy's abrupt and unreasonable end. Alas, when I combine Mortis with FOTJ it grows on me a bit, if I don't consider it that its not the end-all be-all belief of the Force like the way TCW portrays it, but rather take it in like how Xendor did it, with a huge grain of salt, and that these guys are their own Force Users with their own beliefs, not literal manifestations of the Force. I guess its a testament to when I see more of (in my opinion) Disney canon failures, even the parts you consider bad of Legends start to grow on you.

    Objectively speaking, I like the concept of LOTF much as @Sinrebirth described it. I less like the execution of it though. Why have Caedus be just another Sith? Just let Jacen Solo stay Jacen Solo, even if you have him lead a GA Secret Police, have him stick to the character. I wouldn't have minded if they made him quippy like Vader in Rogue One in this instance. Have him train with Lumiya, but do it the same way he did with any other tradition, he takes what he likes from the Sith and doesn't bother putting on a fancy title to himself. And there was no need to kill him and replace him with yet another anti-Jedi CoS when he worked fine as one.
     
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  15. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    How are you going to feel about it should Mortis turns up in Rebels, @Havoc123?


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  16. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Depends a lot on how its portrayed, I like the concept of multiple Monoliths around, left behind by one of the precursor civilizations. We know the Force Wielders, Celestials or not, weren't the ones that built the Mortis Monolith, they just holed up in one, so its entirely possible they just took over a Monolith and started building their structures within it. Also I'm positive since its described as a space station, Monoliths can move. Any thoughts on them being related to the Tho Yor Pyramid ships?
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    We do?
     
  18. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Yeah their point of origin is a planet in the Maw, "Abeloth's planet", I believe, since they originally had her as a caretaker until she drank from the Font of Power and then they isolated themselves to Mortis.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That doesn't stop them from building it as their new home though.
    Didn't they build the Maw in the first place as a prison for Abeloth?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    There were concepts in LOTF I liked-Lumiya, the concept of Sith sacrifice, the second galactic civil war with Corellia as a prime player, a sky solo either falling into darkness or at least doing dark deeds, conflict within the Sky-Solo family, Mandalorian shenanigans, Imperial scheming, and the one Sith in the background.

    One thing I think that may have helped would have been a longer series-NJO style long.
     
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  21. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Tales of LOTF was needed
     
  22. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Precisely precisely!
     
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  23. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Funny, I'm of the opinion that a lot of LOTF already feels like filler and I'm only on Sacrifice (book 5.) What else would be needed to make the series longer like NJO and not drag? And what would be in the Tales of LOTF?
     
  24. SWpants

    SWpants Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Yeah. It does feel like that.
    What made this even more so, what made it worse, is just how inconsistent the subplots were between authors. It was very obvious that you were reading something from three very different authors with each book. The discontinuity made a lot feel like fluff
     
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  25. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    And the last time the war was actually relevant was Fury. Revelation was dull and Invincible it finished off-screen.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2018