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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I know this is par for any opinion oriented issue, but just funny how one view is warning me how horrible it is going to be, and the other seems to offer mild hope.....
     
  2. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 4, 2012
    I'll chime in and give my two cents by saying Invincible was in my humble opinion the most disappointing SW novel i have ever read.

    It wasn't the worst, but it was definitely the most disappointing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    It was also one of the most depressing. And by depressing I mean dark, dreary, and heart breaking.
     
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  4. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    almost 100 pages into Fury.....2 quick issues....

    1) so Jacen just openly/easily kidnapped his daughter.....all I can say, the GFFA better not be cool with this, he better just be the "evil" ruler now and everyone is too scared to do anything like Palps/Vader before him......how could they be okay with this especially since they don't even know it's his daughter, it's just kidnapping a kid to them??? also, yea, shut up Jacen about Tenel making u do this, no interested in that at all, not her fault u did what u did

    2) so Jaina suddenly knows it's her that has to take on Jacen, I already knew this was the endpoint, but this info is just dropped right here and now with no leadup or nothing??? just seems like poor writing once again.....

    overall, not a bad read so far though, really enjoy the shorter chapters that feel like they move events on quicker
     
  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen still has tenderness for his daughter he says something to the effect of
    "being together after all the bad men are gone
     
  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen still has tenderness for his daughter he says something to the effect of
    "being together after all the bad men are gone
     
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen still has tenderness for his daughter he says something to the effect of
    "being together after all the bad men are gone
     
  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Triple post-bad goof on my part.
     
  9. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 4, 2012
    The beauty of it is that by this point Jacen has devolved from doing evil for the sake of the galaxy to doing evil for the sake of Allana.

    Which means that despite deluding himself into believing hes doing things better than Grandpa, hes actually exactly the same. Which is a nice touch.
     
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  10. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Yeah, Jacen's character just gets worse as time goes by. Its not his fault the galaxy won't just submit to his rule, for the greater good, etc. I don't remember GA leadership doing much of anything. After Omas' death, its even less of an issue.

    Jaina, ugh, Jaina. I don't mean that as a slight against her character, I want her to get more screen time, but rather the books did an awful job with her. You might have noticed how little she's done in this series. When Del Rey started they had three Solo kids. Then Anakin died, Jacen defeated the big bad of the NJO and Jaina also got a lot of development, but now that Jacen's the big bad, Luke tried to deal with him, but plot armor saved him at the end of Inferno. Now suddenly they're trying to promote Jaina as an important character, but its kind of seven books late for that.

    I agree that Invincible is one of the most depressing novels, and possibly the most stupid Star Wars events ever (though it has close competition from Revelation and Apocalypse too).
     
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  11. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    at the 200 page mark....

    1) so Jacen is pretty much just evil now (even with the "compassion" he has for Allena)...and all I can say is it's about time on the one hand, and on the other after all my complaining, it's actually such a quick turn that it doesn't work with what came before it so that's annoying since it doesn't give a good reason why Jacen makes the turn

    2) so the GFFA just doesn't care at all he kidnapped this kid and is using her for leverage?? well, that's all folks, I like the Jedi, but this galaxy, no point in rooting for it anymore....who cares if the GFFA or Corellia wins at this point

    3) it is a good parallel bc I def. noticed he is just Vader now (Vader for Padme, Jacen for Allena), yet he's still totally blind to that, but that's common I know

    4) I agree with @Nobody145 that the use of Jaina is just ugh bc of what was said, so little done up to this point and now suddenly thrown to front, too late and feels off now....

    5) the events with the trap by Corellia and all the characters coming together was very interesting, but I do have one question...how could the Jedi not sense Allena??? speaking of that, why aren't the Jedi doing more to try to rescue her? that seems it'd be a big thing for them since she's a Force sensitive daughter of one of their own....

    6) so Corellia is just going off on it's own now away from the Confederation over a power struggle and willing to go crazy with Centerpoint? way to take a war with a good concept of questioning who's right/wrong since both had good arguemtns and just take it off the rails and destroy that just to make people go "crazy" and make the GFFA look better

    7) further proof that the GFFA is all screwed up and not worth following too, they seem cool with Jacen wanting to take it over and use it....

    8) the notion that Jacen can just sell the Jedi as traitors that would kill a kid should be laughable....once again, the story requires that everyone just not remember anything about anyone and how they acted before any point, in other words, the Jedi have no goodwill from their heroic actions, nobody is like, wait, Jedi wouldn't do that.....it's the height of everyone being stupid
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  12. SWpants

    SWpants Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2004
    It makes everything political later on at the end of the series make a ton of sense.
     
  13. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    okay, good to know
     
  14. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    It does make sense there would infighting in the confederation headed as it was by various strong personalities such as Thrackan, Gejjen, and Turr Phennir, and the other various factions such as the Hutts, bothans, etc...
     
  15. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Sal-Solo was long dead before the Confederation actually started up.
     
  16. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Yeah but he was a major player in its formation and Corellia's antics generally.

    As well as being an unstable, violent, and generally disreputable figure.
     
  17. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    I was never amused that he got out of the Yuuzhan Vong War unscathed, after all he did collaborate with the Peace Brigade and the Yuuzhan Vong (in order to save his own skin of course but still...). He also surrendered Corellia to Shimrra personally.
     
  18. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    dp
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  19. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    After this book, the Confederation/Corellia is ignored, with the focus being on how the Jedi and their allies (like the Hapans and Wookiees) fight against Caedus, with Mandos and Niathal/Fondor and a certain rogue fleet thrown in. The war with the Confederation isn't won or lost or even addressed until the next series (and even then, very vaguely). The last two books, and the last book in particular, just act like there is no war with the Confederation/Corellia and that the war has always been Jedi versus Jacen.

    Just giving you a heads-up for this colossally stupid move.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  20. SWpants

    SWpants Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2004
    Okay, it’s a “well, this is where they were heading and at least there is some semblence of stability-one I never thought I’d like.”

    Unfortunately, yes, you have to wade through crap to get there
     
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  21. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I wish the Confederation was more fleshed out, like more reasons for their secession and how they operate in peace time. I imagine it joins the line of barely mentions sections of space like the Corporate Sector and the Centrality, before being split between the Fel Empire and GA, in which I imagine Phennir plays some role.
     
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  22. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Care to shed light on that vagueness? I found absolutely nothing reading FOTJ to even suggest a conclusion.
     
  23. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    I'm not sure how much was said or implied or just outright ignored, especially between LotF and FotJ. If you thought the poor continuity (or at least poor consistency) between LotF novels was bad, imagine how bad it was between two different series (despite having two of the same three authors, but that makes the retcons and poor continuity even sadder actually).

    I'll put it in spoilers just in case for anyone who hasn't gotten that far yet.

    Off-hand, I think by Invincible it seemed like the war had just wound down with the Confederation almost losing, which is why Jacen was focusing on the Jedi and their allies (and would-be allies). Then off-screen some treaty is signed, the collective IQ of the galaxy drops into negative numbers with the new Chief of State, and the war's over.

    Then in Outcast, there's some sort of Unification summit, which I think implied that the Confederation would rejoin the GA and maybe the Imperials would officially join too, after some negotiations. Well, only Allston bothered to bring up that summit (and the Confederation at all, actually, you can tell since Allston's LotF books are the ones that best showed there was a big war going on). It quickly became apparently that the so-called summit was just an excuse to have Jagged on Coruscant, since except for Luke and Ben, every important character must be on Coruscant for the entire series so they can all waste time together.

    Of course even Allston stopped bringing up the Confederation by the last third of FotJ, I think. Which shows what a joke that whole "Second Galactic Civil War" was.

    Thracken was annoying, and seeing him pop up again and again was depressing. Like during the Vong War we eventually got to see bad guys Shesh and Nom Anor get their just desserts eventually. Thracken, how many times would he get legitimate power on Corellia? Even after he's finally dead, he's replaced by someone just as greedy and nasty as him, so its not like there's any improvement. Its too much to ask for a decent leader. Omas kind of came close, but, well, we saw what happened to him, and everyone else after him was definitely a major step down.
     
  24. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    sure hope this isn't another circular debate, but....I get that that CAN happen with strong personalities, my point though is at the beginning of the series, Correllia actually succeeded for a reason, they weren't just the trope bad guys, hence why Wedge, Han, and Leia all sided with them, but with stunts like this they become just trope bad guys and that is sad bc I believe it could have been so much better/interesting the other way with both sides having good justifications

    and the sadder part is also, the GFFA seem like trope bad guys too at this point also.....
     
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  25. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The corellians were portrayed as far back as the bantam era as itching for independence and as stated previously Thrackan was not a good man.

    The GA's centralization and Jacen's GAG raids catalyzed support I think for the confederate cause.
     
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