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Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Darth Invictus I think Onderon1 is referring to the line near the end of TUF about Jacen knowing he'd never reach this level of the Force again and would spend his life searching, then TDN he's been missing for 5 years studying all the various Force philosophies and now in LOTF follow the Sith philosophy also....all of that points to that he had a Force addiction post TUF aka caring only about the Force as opposed to what Traitor showed him about life isn't all about the Force, it's about self too and owning one's one actions which would be true whether a Force user or not....
     
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  2. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I didn't get the lesson from Traitor that life was more than about the force-it was Jacen learning to rely on his inner strength and power and not his connection to the force.

    As for TUF-I took that scene as being extremely spiritually significant to Jacen and his reflection after that yes he would search for that experience again yet never find it. Some fans call that addiction and I call it an experience in being transcendent.
     
  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    It's sort of cynical to suggest that having a numinous experience that you seem to replicate is analogous to a drug addiction.

    It's been so long since I've read Traitor I don't feel qualified anymore.
     
  4. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017


    BOLD is mine

    First bold - You say the lesson wasn't about the Force, I was saying that too, yet post TUF Jacen is ALL about the Force, that's the problem

    Second bold - the addiction is in that exact statement, he did keep searching and it made him incredibly arrogant, he started thinking he could do w/e he wanted/needed bc he had the ability bc of the Force, his actions post NJO showed his addiction even if in TUF it didn't mean that at the time
     
  5. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017


    I'd say that likening it to a drug addiction is more bc of Jacen's actions/attitudes leading to bad endings (becoming arrogant, going Sith, taking over the galaxy, etc)

    no one would use that terminology if Jacen's pursuits of knowledge to replicate that experience would have lead him more and more into heroic actions
     
  6. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Jacen's problems wasn't addiction to the Force, it was egotism. He became so powerful with the Force that he thought he was the only one who could bring peace to the Galaxy. It was all about him. His destiny, his sacrifice, his grand plans to bring peace.

    This complete focus on self is a pure Sith teaching. The Jedi way is to pledge oneself to selfless duty in service of a larger cause.

    Jacen had such power and potential for good. He saved the Galaxy in The Unifying Force by surrendering himself to the Force. He ignored his personal desires and followed what the Force was saying. Afterwards, rather than staying an active Jedi Knight and doing everything he could to help the Galaxy rebuild, Jacen spent five long years pursuing his own interests. A completely selfish endeavor that only served him. Jacen's first and foremost concern was himself. He was selfish just like his grandfather and that's why he fell. Because it's not always about what the Galaxy can do for you. It's about how you can serve the Galaxy. It's about letting go of yourself and doing what's required of you to help others.
     
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  7. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017


    I agree here also, I just don't personally attribute the two concepts (addiction and egotism) that different than each other, I would say it was an addiction based off egotism (at least from TDN onwards) which was bad storytelling after the events at the conclusion of TUF
     
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  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Are we really saying Jacen was a drug addict or something? Because I didn't see it that way(Denning may have). Jacen achieving that state was a sign of spiritual insight, humility, and depth. Didn't he have to surrender himself entirely to the will of the force? Becoming the unifying force's literal avatar-a shining being of light and humility.

    That's an extremely significant spiritual experience.
     
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  9. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 3, 2016
    Not at all. If it affects his life in a way that fits the criteria of an addiction then it's really that simple.

    You can be addicted to anything if it affects you in that way.
     
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  10. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Except people are pointing to a single event and prose which is describing a moment of temporary enlightenment -- a state someone with mystical or religious beliefs is trying to achieve -- and since Jacen achieved it, and recognized simultaneously that as a mystic he will continue trying to achieve it all the same as he was before this numinous event, and that he will likely not achieve it again, and twisting it into a negative.

    Every Jedi spends her life seeking this moment Jacen experienced. It's not predictive of anything. It's their purpose in following the will of the Force. To suggest Luceno wrote that passage with any sort of intention toward hinting at Caedus, or that it's somehow foreshadowing that, is completely disingenuous and is contorting the text completely.

    Or every Jedi is a junkie seeking their next fix of oneness with the Force. I suppose Force ghosting is ODing.

    But the bottom line is we're privy to his thoughts in LOTF and this isn't motivating him. Unless we've become so cynical about continuity due to the way FOTJ opted to completely retcon his motivations from what we actually read that it's become multiple choice.
     
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  11. SWpants

    SWpants Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2004

    In the NJO, Jacen beginning to achieve that state was spiritual insight and humility.
    By the second Dark Nest book, it was beyond humility; it was egotism that paralleled Anakin's (one of a few links between the PT and post-OT that Denning seemed to be forcing). Jacen had a vision of the future and thought that it was up to him to change it. When Luke confronts him, asks if he didn't actually warp the future into what he saw, Jacen shrugs and is all "well, like you said, the future is in motion. I just meddled as I saw it." There's an unspoken and I'll keep forcing it to be what I feel is right until I win, which manifests in the post-DNT books.
     
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  12. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I think everyone would agree with you if were only looking at TUF....h/e once you take in Jacens actions in TDN and LOTF the entirety becomes what we're saying

    And yes it may be bad writing on Denning but it became part of the story at that point so cant ignore it
     
  13. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
  14. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Jw how are people able to ignore parts of EU?

    I mean I get it for your own personal canon in your head but on here with others how can you not incorporate all aspects of the EU so we all know what is being talked about and why or how something is
     
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Denning may have viewed it or interpreted the line as that of a drug addict looking for the next high. But to me that seems like an utter bastardization of both what actually happened in TUF and Jacen's character arc.

    I mean Jedi don't become shining Bodhisattvas with suns in their eyes-not even when they die. Jacen's experience I interpreted to have tremendous spiritual significance for him and for the Jedi as a whole.
     
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  16. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    Yeah, the abrupt shift from TUF to DNT was always one of the worst things in the old post-RotJ EU. Jacen basically was enlightened for a few minutes, and in the TUF epilogue it was clearly a positive experience. He probably wouldn't have become something like a buddha or a saint, but something closer to that at least. Instead of elevating him into a wiser character after that, they used it to drag him down. Mainly because they just had to turn him in a self-righteous amoral jerk as they wanted to rip off the prequels. Bad enough almost every era had to copy the prequel era Jedi after the prequel movies, but they wasted Anakin Solo's sacrifice by ruining another of the Solo kids.

    This is jumping ahead a bit, but if you finish LotF (and if you subject yourself to FotJ), you can see that continuity and logic are thrown out along the way because they just wanted dark and gritty and angsty (as if NJO wasn't bad enough already). We already have a clear example of this with TUF to DNT, and it only gets worse later on. Even crazier, you've got certain authors in FotJ retconning or ignoring LotF books that they themselves wrote just a few years earlier. Basically, if they don't care about canon, why should we? The next series will retcon positive things into bad things, there's no bright future, the authors just can't let go of the Big Three (despite a lot of NJO being devoted to trying to move past them), so what's the point?

    Ironically despite the NJO being much longer and having many more authors involved, it had much more consistency in both plotlines and characterization than LoTF, with its mere nine books and three authors.
     
  17. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Well I definitely understand the sentiment especially if the authors throw out continuity, I only meant in discussion though bc how can two people talk about the same plotline/arc/etc if one person is using only NJO for discussion, one is using NJO, and parts of TDN, but ignores LOTF, or one is using only certain books of NJO, skipping TDN, ignoring one part of the characterization of Jacen in LOTF but accepts all other parts....it's just impossible then to discuss....
     
  18. Onderon1

    Onderon1 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2008
    Well, I didn't mean to turn loose a bull in a china shop. [face_blush]

    Tbf, it'd be very disingenuous to describe every Jedi - Old Order or New - as being "addicted" if they find oneness with the Force. Where it's dangerous is when the Force becomes the only lens through which the Force-user looks on a consistent basis.

    To a lesser, but more widespread degree, individual members of the OJO suffered from this - Mace Windu, etc. Yoda and Obi-Wan recovered from it at the end of ROTS, but only after a horrific cost to the Order and society as a whole (and, at least in Obi-Wan's case, I'm loath to throw him under the speeder, because he was having to "unlearn" a POV he'd spent a lifetime within).

    In some ways, this explains why Old Ben is so relatable, not only because of the "old wizard" archetype, but also because he can go to a cantina and fit in reasonably well. By ANH, he remembered how to be an ordinary guy again, while not losing his reverence for the Force - balance, in other words.

    Jacen, it can be argued, never found that balance; Vergere stripping him of the Force was less effective that it could've been in getting him to relate to how other sentients dealt without the Force on a daily basis. It's a horrible irony that someone described as an empath seems to have such inability to understand the emotions and experiences of others, but Jacen's a perfect example of an academic recluse who can't function when moved from their comfort zone.

    AFA addiction ... yeah, now that I think on it, that metaphor falls down upon examination. He got a taste of a possible answer, but was it the only one? Certainly not.

    I wouldn't necessarily say Jacen stopped looking for answers outside himself until he became Caedus - had his 5-year sojourn made him solely overconfident, he would've likely killed Lumiya instead of falling for her deceit (or, he might have fallen even earlier). It's when he stops questioning that he sinks into the pit that is Sithdom. :(
     
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  19. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    One thing I found funny was that Crucible was hyped with so much potential to repair the damage caused by DNT, LOTF and FOTJ. Then we remembered who was writing it and as a result, we got the lovely disastrous end to the Legends universe.
     
  20. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017
    wow, I'm only to page 159 of Bloodlines, and once again, the book itself is interesting in the sense it keeps my attention, h/e....Jacen's descent is so quick and easy to see as wrong so it's really questionable that he doesn't see it....I see why everybody has a problem with it

    1) first off, he's so arrogant, he brings Lumiya to Coruscant to show up Luke...and I know he says it's to check her but be honest, he even helps her hide from Luke so it's about him....
    2) he's so arrogant in his abilities, he never once thinks about that Lumiya just might be talented enough to hide her vengeful emotions towards Luke from him
    3) he joins the GAG and immediately decides to intern all Corellians even though the war hasn't even really started
    4) he intentionally drags Ben into his way which he knows will be hated and Luke, Ben's own son is against

    also, what's with the serious overpowerment of Jacen as even above Luke????

    and, Ben is just too wise for his age.....he's only 13 and yet he's the sage eyes for the middle of this conflict when even Luke, Han, and all the adults are taking sides????
     
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  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Thing is most people don't become one with an arguably semi sentient energy field experiencing potential unlimited power and the ability to see all of time and space and impose their will on the universe(yet not do the this because of their humility which allows them to achieve this state to begin with) and function well in the "mundane" world afterwards. Jacen had very much a mystical experience and one of crowing glory and significance. It would be very difficult for him not to be constantly thinking of the mystical and arcane afterwards.
     
  22. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013

    I feel like children are often like that, though. They haven't grown old enough to have their own political views, so they can clearly see that things shouldn't be as polarizing as they are. It's just like how, in modern American politics, conservatives and liberals are often so polarized, but their children aren't, unless the parents have indoctrinated them in the extreme. Kids don't have political parties, but they do have a sense of right and wrong.
     
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  23. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Am the only one who found Jacen's letter to Jaina he later deleted? Where he was going to confess about being a Sith?
     
  24. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 27, 2017


    You raise a great point with your example. However, my problem is that while I can see general adults be like you describe, I have a hard time believing Luke Skywalker, Leia Solo, Wedge Antillies, etc siding so easy with one side or the other and not being able to think rationally in the middle area. They have been defined as capable, rational, great heroes who think about their actions before they jump head in. Even Han, while more "full speed ahead" isn't shown to be this "full speed ahead" on an issue like this. Like you indicated with a sense of right and wrong, but that's not been a problem with our heroes up to this point. And with Ben, I could agree with a general sense of right and wrong, but man are his questions deeper than just a basic right and wrong. Ex. - Why would a fight b/t Corellia/GFFA make Corellians on Coruscant turn on Coruscant and terroize it since the Corellians have lived there for entire lives? Why wouldn't they just move then? Why would a Corellian attack a CSF guard trying to protect Corellians? Great questions!! I've never personally known a kid to be able to dissect something that intricate from any situation though.
     
  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    And here you come across the defining aspects of LOTF:

    Traviss' lack of subtlety.

    The writer conflict that tore through the series of Denning vs Traviss. (Allston? In the middle, on a doomed trying-to-keep-the-peace mission.)