Discussion [LOTR] Mithlond/The Grey Havens - For All Creatures of Eru, Great And Small

I'm not even on the conjugating verbs part! (Though I know do know imperative.) I have the feeling mutations are going to kill me.

The Hobbit movie! I'm looking forward to the actual book adaption more than the bridge movie. It doesn't need one... Tolkien managed quite well.

Yeah, I didn't use a generator for my Quenya name. There's a site that has them already translated on it. Link: http://www.elvish.org/elm/names.html

There's a lot of bad Elvish out there. The main good sources are truly the ones already mentioned, the Elfling Yahoo group (which is for serious language discussion, not translation), and few others. It also doesn't help that Tolkien changed his mind. For example, Elrond has (at least) two meanings. The usual thing to do is to take the latter definition. Then you add in movie Elvish, half of which is reconstructed (and some scholars therefore ignore), and it's a whole big mess.

~ Indy

Personally, as David Salo is one of the scholars, I think the rest of them are just peeved they didn't get the job.


Dana

I'd love to know what my name-- Jessica Paige-- is in elvish. I wish I could translate it.

That's a complicated one. "Jessica" is from a Hebrew word that means "to behold". "Behold" in Sindarin is "alae", but "to gaze" is "tiria", which would most likely translate into a name as Tiriel, "having gazed". "Paige", on the other hand, means, um, "page, servant", and that's derived from "little boy". So, um, I doubt you want Tithenion as your other name. It could be twisted to Titheniel, which is "little girl". Making it "behold a little girl" would just be weird.

Let's see . . . If we made the name being the subject that is acting with "behold", instead of the acted upon, we could probably get away with combining the two names to make Cendî (woman who sees), or Tíradî, or Tíradwen. Trying to throw "little" or "small" into the mix just makes it an awkward mouthful.


Dana

Probably! Of course, there's two or three different camps on reconstruction, and I know just enough to know that I'm going to stay far, far away from the whole debate.

Nice job on the translation. I have the feeling it will be a long time before I'm able to do that. So, just out of curiousity, what's independence?

On another note:

Since LotR is one of the major fandoms, do we want to start an index now? There's already three or four fics, and this place hasn't been open long. The number's only going to grow.

And how should we organize it? The time period might be a good way: Silm and Second Age, Third Age pre-LotR, LotR, post-RotK. From there in each section, alphabetize by author. Or do you have any other ideas?

I have a somewhat stupid question, but it's something I never really got, based on what I've read here - is Valinor the equivilent of death? Is it a real, physical place? I read Dana's two stories and in one, Elrond's wife was there after her death, but in the other, she mentioned Galadriel coming back from there to fight someone, and I'm really confused

Valinor is a real place, yes. It's where the Maiar and the Valar and the elves who sailed west live. Galadriel was born there, and she went to Middle Earth with some of her family and set up their own lands there.

Celebrian didn't die, she said to Valinor to be with the other elves and the Valar to heal from her ordeal at the hands of orcs. She's still very much alive. I mentioned that two other characters did make it to Valinor after their deaths; that's something in the Silmarillion that I'm a bit fuzzy on remembering at the moment, because I wrote that story four years ago and don't remember offhand what I was referencing.

I'm not sure what you mean about Galadriel fighting someone, though.

Dana

the exile of Galadriel after she left Valinor to fight Morgoth

I think that was it.

Okay, I thought she was dead. So elves can go there when they're alive, but can reach it when they're dead as well, but they don't usually come back to Middle Earth?

Oh, right. Yeah, some of the elves actually cared what happened in ME, so some of them went to fight Morgoth. That was largely secondary to setting up their own lands, though.

It's kind of confusing. Humans, when they die, go to the halls of Mandos. Elves that die go there, too, temporarily. Some elves stay there, I think, some end up going to Valinor after that (I don't know how that works, ask Tolkien- oh, wait, he's dead), and some actually get reincarnated (poor Glorfindel, he's been reincarnated, like, three times already). But no, they don't usually come back to Middle Earth after they've been to Valinor. The ones who came to Middle Earth from Valinor were born in Valinor.


Dana

Okay, so I can tell my sister that Frodo etc. don't sail off to heaven, then

Heh. Well, he did die in Valinor. It didn't make him immortal.


Dana

Yeah, eventually. But she watched the last half hour of ROTK (why would you watch the last half-hour of a nine-hour trilogy? Why?) and decided that she hates it because Frodo sails off to death.

This is going to be long. One of my LotR fics is Silm-based- and set in Valinor to boot- so this may be a bit more detail than you want.

Valinor in a nutshell: It's where the "gods" (the Valar) live. They're actually more like creator angels than God, and actually answer to/were created by Eru Ilúvatar (this is God- and I do mean the Christian God. Middle-earth is our Earth). Elves and humans are called the Children of Eru because they were created by Him and not the Valar. The Elves are the Firstborn and cannot die save through grief or physical slaying/injuries. If they do die, they go to the Halls of Mandos, where they recover and are eventually reincarnated in exact copies of their original bodies and remain in Valinor. (Glorfindel is the only Elf who returns to Middle-earth.) They are immortal only in the sense that they will live until the ending of the physical world, and they do not know what will happen to them afterwards. Humans also go to the Halls for a time, and then move on to Eru. Nothing else is known about their fate except the Elves consider it a gift.

The reason Elves live in Valinor: the Valar brought them there. It's long and complicated, but not all Elves went on the journey there, some refusing the journey and others stopping partway there (Legolas' ancestors were some of the latter). The Sea-longing is a result of this- Elves are meant to be in Valinor. It is the last remnent of the "unmarred" world, and it is easier there for them to bear their long years in the world.

Morgoth: the original Dark Lord. Sauron was a servant of his. He rebelled against Eru before the universe was even created. He stole the Silmarils, and a foolish oath was sworn by their Elven maker and his seven sons. Many of the Noldor (there's more than one Elvish race) followed him to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth and set up their own lands. Galadriel did not follow him per se- she didn't take the oath- but she was still caught up in the ban keeping the Noldor from returning to Valinor (which was lifted at the end of the First Age except specifically for her).

Frodo going to Valinor: he went there to heal, both in body and spirit. Gandalf said specifically that in the book, but I'm not sure if he did so in the movie. To quote one of Tolkien's letters on this subject: "So [Frodo] went to both a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of truer understanding of his position in both littleness and greatness, spent still in Time amid the beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil" (Letters of JRR Tolkien, #246, pg. 328).

All of the above save Frodo is detailed in The Silmarillion. I'm not sure if I made much sense (because it is complicated), so ask if you need anything clarified.

And on a random but related note, The Grey Havens (the sailing) is my favorite part of both the book and the movie.

Was the ban ever lifted for Galadriel? I can't remember from the book, but in the movie, she sailed west as well.

And was Frodo to live the rest of his life there, or just rest and heal for a bit?

Yeah, it was eventually lifted for her, which is why she sailed. That was what her passing the test remark was about.


Dana

No one who goes to Valinor can return. (Technically, the Elves can, but why would they want to?) Frodo would eventually die there, of his own free will, when the time was right. He would not be afraid to do so, death being the natural state of affairs for mortals.

Which, when you come down to it, there's things in the movies that people who haven't read or understood the books wouldn't plain get. Your sister thinking Frodo was dying and going to heaven is just one example. That isn't to say the movies can't be understood without reading (I wouldn't know since I read them before the movies); it's just stuff may be missed. Or, due to the fact that the movies changed things, people think one thing happened when it really didn't (Elves in Helm's Deep). It's one of the problems that I have with the movies, but there's nothing I can do about it.

I am finding myself suddenly enlightened. I read the books, and saw the movie, and still thought that Frodo basically went to Heaven. I mean, I knew it was more complicated than that, but... yes, this is interesting... veeeery interesting....

I think I'm going to take a crack at the books again I'll admit, I had a hard time trying to explain what Valinor was to my sister because I was somewhat unsure. Thanks!

Wow, such knowledgable fans here.

Hi to everybody. So glad to see an LOTR thread here. Though, it's expected.

Hmm, have to admit my favorite character has always been Glorfindel. Adore him in both incarnations. Next favorite is Frodo, simply because of how deep and tragic his character is. Third would be Elrond, who I totally wept for because of what the movies did to him. And fourth would have to be Lindir, even though if I remember correctly, he has about two pages of mentions in FOTR only.

Have to admit I do love the movies despite some things. How I got into the fandom was that I heard FOTR was coming out, and felt compelled to at least read 'The Hobbit' before I saw it. I did, and read FOTR partially before seeing it. Been hooked ever since. Have read all of LOTR, Sil, and some of the Histories. Haven't really tried to learn any of the languages though, and it's been a while since I've brushed up on it all.

Neon Star... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

I love Glorfindel. I was so pissed that Arwen stole his role in the movies. Then when I finally got around to watching the cartoon versions, I geeked out when a blonde male elf came to rescue Frodo... but instead it was Legolas.

It has been a long time, hasn't it?

Totally understand that. We Glorfindel fans got burned twice. It's like the film makers have something against him.

Oh, that lovely ol' animated version... Cracks me up every time.

I love Glorfindel too, and will happily join the crowd of people who got burned -- twice.

I've been a Tolkien fan since the ripe age of five when my mom read me The Hobbit. I remember growing up with that book and the animated movie version (which I still love -- I don't own it, but it might have been economic for my parents to have bought it for me since I was forever renting it ). My mom attempted to read me The Lord of the Rings, but I got impatient (the entire Shire part doesn't keep a nine-year-old's attention very well ), stole the book and finished reading it on my own (which took me about half a year ).

That said, I've read both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit many, many times over the years as they are my favourite books. I've read the Sil as well, and Unfinished Tales. I've been wanting to get into the histories and such, but haven't had the time and my library's collection sucks.

I love the movies, despite the liberties taken here and there. I was ecstatic when I heard that they were making LotR into films and dragged my parents out on opening night so I could see it. I think I saw FotR four times when it came out.

I wrote one piece of LotR fanfiction about five years ago. I remember it being about hobbits, but I think I deleted it out of embarrassment over my writing style back then.

Oh, the animated version

I'll admit that besides wishing that movie Faramir was more like book Faramir, since I saw the movies first I don't really care about the changes, even elves in Helm's Deep. I think that it was well done for the story that the movies were telling, which in some places differed from the story that the book was telling.

Also wish we could have seen more Faramir/Eowyn interaction, since that's left out, and at the end of the movie Eowyn is just suddenly over Aragorn.

I don't mind the Arwen changes. Nice to see a strong female character, since she doesn't do much in the books.

The Extended Editions does have a bit more Faramir/Eowyn interaction, but it's still very much a "Aragorn doesn't like me, wah..." *eyes Faramir* "Okay, I guess you're not too bad."

You're welcome for the explanation.

Ah, Glorfindel... how we love thee. I understand why he's not in the films- there's no point in introducing a minor character who will never be seen again. Still, my personal belief is that he's standing next to Elrond at Aragorn's crowning in the movie (as are Elladan and Elrohir ).

Ack! Animated version... Never seen. Never will. One of my friends forced me to watch part of the RotK version. That was enough for me. *shudders* Orcs should not sing.

There's more Faramir/Eowyn interaction in the RotK Extended Edition. And, though I may complain about some of the changes, I still like the movies. The best unofficial explanation I read for the changes is that the movies are an AU of the book.

As for Arwen being a strong character- she is, just in a different way. She isn't the fighter that many of us like to read about. Instead, she's the one who waited at home while her betrothed left on a quest that had a slim chance at success, and therefore a very high chance of everyone dying. Furthermore, she chose to be seperated from her family for the rest of the world's existance. She gave up Valinor for love. That is the quiet courage that many people forget about. (And as a former Navy brat, I can identify with it. We don't have a choice but to wait, in either peacetime or war.)