LOTR, The Matrix, and the Star Wars PT: Which trilogy will stand the test of time?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ElfStar, Oct 7, 2002.

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  1. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    And this guy is a supportor of The Matrix franchise? Ouch.
  2. DarthSil Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 4
    I think Matrix Reloaded's box office success can be summed up best by rephrasing that Energizer Bunny commercial:

    "It keeps dropping and dropping and dropping and dropping . . ." :D
  3. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think anyone here expected Reloaded to beat Spiderman's $400 million gross. (I personally expected it to earn around $320-$350 -- a little more realistic)

    That would be Jeffrey Well's fault for expecting so much in the first place then. I think The Matrix is popular, but not at the same level as the iconic Spiderman character.





  4. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Your entire view of filmmaking is flawed Monkey. It isn't a purely subjective medium. If someone delivers a line in a monotonous, expressionless manner when the circumstances don't call for it, that is bad acting, and it would be factually incorrect to say that it was good.

    No, it's not flawed. It simply doesn't agree with your ideas. How do you know in what way a line is supposed to be delivered? And it is entirely possible for some people to watch the same delivery and come away with different opinions of it. That is why it is subjective, and there would be NOTHING "factually incorrect" about it.

    I'm aware that it's been discussed. Doesn't change the fact that he's wrong, does it?

    In your opinion.

    The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round...

    You can give sarcastic responses all you want, but that will not change the fact that Durwood was right. That was nothing but your opinion.

    there's always a paragraph or two like this in your posts. Its quite revealing.

    It's always there because you have yet to stop doing it. So yes, I suppose you could say it's quite revealing.

    This is nonsense, I have debated this matter over and over, here is a quote of me from my previous post:
    So far all you've provided is a few incidents where you recently saw some kids buying tickets for an R,
    Others have seen similar incidents.
    Fine,I'm sure this true.


    Obviously I do not ignore it, I even agree with some of it. We have debated this matter many times, check the posts, it is simply ludicrous to say I haven't argued this.

    Even right there in the example you use, you aren't saying anything. There is nothing there that refutes what I am saying, so I don't understand what you're trying to prove with it.

    Obviously I do not ignore it, I even agree with some of it. We have debated this matter many times, check the posts, it is simply ludicrous to say I haven't argued this.
    But your problem is that I don't agree with your conclusion from this evidence - that the rating is meaningless. All the incidents you describe only account for a tiny percent of the millions of tickets sold.
    And- my argument is connected to my other points, which you have ignored, again and again, by lamely saying "this has been addressed."


    But that is my point, you haven't really debated much of anything. You are the one who hasn't really brought up any new points, relying instead on saying the same thing over and over again. This is why, as you mentioned, I have a paragraph in every post to you about you covering your ears and not seeing reality, remember? There is a reason that's there, but instead of doing something to change that, you keep commenting on me saying you aren't saying anything. Well, you want me to stop saying that, all you have to do is actually say something.

    Well isn't that nice and vague!
    Here are my points again:

    Studios that try for a PG rating, they obviously think the R rating has meaning, therefore it is not meaningless.

    Parents who use the rating as a guide to decide what to take their kids to, they obviously feel it has meaning, therefore it is not meaningless.

    Now if you can refute those points, go ahead. Or will you hide behind the old trusty "this has been addressed" routine?


    Like I said, it HAS been addressed. If you don't wanna go back and look then that's your problem. I'm getting tired of pointing out the obvious to you, when another thing that IS obvious is that you don't want to see what is really happening.

    More and more parents are NOT simply looking at the rating of a film and telling Johhny he can't go see it. They may ask other people's opinion of it, but there are increasingly more times when parents do in fact know their teens are going to see R rated movies, and they just don't care because they know it isn't really that important.

    As for studios trying to get a PG-13 rating, even that is starting to die down a little in the past few years. Mostly because it doesn't matter, especially not when
  5. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry man, not all line-delivery is subjective.

    For example, when Natalie says "I will not give into this", she was speaking in monotone. That's not debatable, that's a fact. Voice levels aren't subjective. Couple that with her arms being firmly locked at her sides like a cadet or whatever, and you have an inarguable case of poor acting.
  6. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    No, you don't have an inarguable case of poor acting. What you have is a deliver YOU didn't like. As I said, different people can watch that and get different things out of it. Not everyone will think it is as bad as you do. Thus, it is subjective.
  7. AdamBertocci Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Am I the only one who thinks Jeffrey Wells has the sort of face that deserves to be punched?

    I liked Spider-Man far, far more than The Matrix and I still wanna go over to that guy's house and show him who's who. Maybe punch him in the face. Or kick him in the genitals. Yeah.


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  8. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Standing like a soldier and speaking with a monotonous voice when the situaion doesn't call for it is poor acting. Delivering a performance in a way contrary to what the scene requires is exactly that, because the whole point is to behave in a manner that conveys the emotions appropriate for the scene. Monotonous voices coupled with a complete lack of body-language cannot accomplish this. Not an opinion.
  9. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    But what if the character calls for it?

    But, since it is quite obvious that not everybody has agreed on your Natalie Portman example, then it IS subjective. All you have shown us is that YOU don't like it, and that's fine. Not everyone has to like it. In fact, I can't think of a single thing that everyone agrees is good. Maybe oxygen, but that's about it. So if you don't like it, you don't like it and nothing I say is gonna change that. Of course, I'm not trying to change what you like. But it still doesn't make it anything other than your opinion.
  10. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    And round and round we go...
  11. AdamBertocci Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    lol Durwood --

    "One more pass..."
    </ESB>

    "He has to complete two more circuits? Oh dear."
    </TPM>


    I'm only realizing NOW that Threepio and Artoo have a "Lassie" sort of relationship -- Threepio has to repeat everything Artoo said for the benefit of the audience. Which sounded irritating in Lassie but not so in SW.
    Kudos to Anthony Daniels for makin' it sound fairly natural (at least by droid standards).



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  12. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Oh this should be good. How does Natalie's character call for her to be monotone and standing stiff while saying that line? I'm all ears.
  13. Leto II Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
  14. Leto II Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    I dunno...I once had a girlfriend who acted *quite* a lot like Natalie did in that particular scene...
  15. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Oh this should be good. How does Natalie's character call for her to be monotone and standing stiff while saying that line?

    I feel the need to point out that you're begging the question by describing her performance in the most unfavorable way possible. One could just as easily say, "How does Padme's character call for her to be reserved and stand with a firm poise while saying that line?"

    Now that we've cleared that up, carry on.
  16. sdj Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    Well at least shes not telling you the plot of the film while she does it.
  17. advent Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2003
    star 2
    All of this "bad acting" talk reminds me of something. I was talking with someone (yes, in real life) about A.I. Artificial Intelligence. They obviously didn't like much about it; on the other hand, I loved it.

    They asked me, "Why was the acting so cold and creepy. It was just bad." I said it was because a majority of the cast was not human, but were Meccas (robots). They said they had seen other films with robots that weren't as weird and stuff. I said it was a stylistic choice to present a certain mood or tone to the film. They said, "Nah, it was just bad."

    I guess that's just how it goes.

    It can feel alienating to love a certain movie so much, when some people seem to hate it with a passion. On top of that, they seem to want to make sure that they convince everyone else to hate it, too.

    Kinda sucks.

    Anyway, I feel all three trilogies will stand the test of time to some degree. They are all fantasy type movies. One being a classic fantasy/mythology, one being contemporary science fiction philosophy/action, one being a fantasy/mythology set in space. I personally like all three so far. None of them are complete yet.
  18. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    There's a big difference with A.I. The mecha's character did call for the monotonous voices when they were needed.

    Durwood: Monotone is a voice description, and it isn't a subjective one. Her voice was monotone when she delivered that line.

    So, if you'd like, you can use "How did Natalie's character call for her to be monotone and stand with firm poise when delivering that line?" if it makes you feel better.
  19. appleseed Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 5
    That's what is so insulting about the basher's crusade against the prequels. Not only do they dislike them-which is of course their right, but they are absoultely convinced that everyone else must hate them too. If you do like them, the bashers react as if you're either lying, delusional, or just a flat-out idiot. I mean, after 4 years of fanaticial trolling against these movies, you'd think they'd understand that not everybody agrees with them. But they either cannot or will not accept this. To me, Natalie is reserved in quite a few scenes because that's her character, but to others, her performance is wooden. Fine, that's your opinion, but the underlying trace of sarcasm, basically implying that anyone who likes her performance is ignorant and deluded-is just disgusting.
  20. AdamBertocci Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    That's what is so insulting about the basher's crusade against the prequels.

    Also, their parties are never any fun... no one ever wants to play Twister. :(


    Anyway, I take a different approach to ol' Nat-Nat. It's no secret that I felt she was TPM's biggest liability acting-wise. I UNDERSTOOD what she was going for, but it just didn't work out.

    Alas.

    It sucks, but it doesn't ruin the flick for me, "not by a long-a shot" as Watto would say.


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  21. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    seed: If you enjoy the films, more power to you.

    But to say that Natalie was speaking with a monotonous voice when delivering that line is a fact, not an opinion. To say that this wasn't in accordance with the circumstances of the scene, in which she emphasizing that no matter how she and Anakin felt about eachother that they could never be together, to say that this did not beget a monotonous tone is a fact, not an opinion. And to say that the mark of good acting is to convey the emotions that the scene requires is a fact, not an opinion.

    Therefore, to say that her delivery of this line constituted poor acting is a fact, not an opinion.
  22. appleseed Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 5
    Insidious: Well, I guess you have your facts and I have mine. I don't agree with a word you said, however. To me, she delivers the line in a tone of restraint, not in a monotone. That's the fact to me.
  23. sdj Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    Frankly the Matrix if lucky will be remembered in the same sense as the Terminator films and the Alien films. But not at the level of Star Wars. LotR has a chance at that. Harry Potter IMO is not that good. I've never read the books but the films are merely average. But much better than Reloaded. I also feel that T3 will be better than Reloaded. But again I didn't think Reloaded would be as bad as it was.
  24. anidanami124 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    But to say that Natalie was speaking with a monotonous voice when delivering that line is a fact, not an opinion.

    For you it is a fact. For others it is there fact that she did a good job. So hwo's right and who's worng? Can we please end this fact and opinion debit

    To say that this wasn't in accordance with the circumstances of the scene, in which she emphasizing that no matter how she and Anakin felt about eachother that they could never be together, to say that this did not beget a monotonous tone is a fact, not an opinion.

    Can we please end the debit of fact and opinion. No one is winning this. We all have different opinions of the Fire place scene. You did not like it others did. Who's right who's wrong? Can we just end this debit.

    And to say that the mark of good acting is to convey the emotions that the scene requires is a fact, not an opinion. Fact, opinion, fact, opinion, etc, etc. Can we please please please please end this debit. Tell me who is winning the fact vs. opinion debit? ?[face_plain]

  25. sdj Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    A fact requires proof. Others agreeing is not proof even if they are the majority. Which I am not convinced is the case but regardless, how can you prove the quality of ones performance? Please try. I am in the mood to watch an exercise in futility.
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